USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return

[bmags]

While obviously lack of talent is the most serious problem we need to fix, I'd put PR and organizational communications pretty high up there on the list of problems.

[captain54]

The reality of revenue is this. The White Sox are no where near the big market teams in terms of dollars earned. The Yankees brought in $516 million in revenue last year. Tampa brought in $193 million. The White Sox brought in $240million.

 

Quit crying about how the Sox have no money to operate while all the others teams do. They have no one to blame but themselves. One franchise debilitating move after another over the years has taken its toll on the organization. The organization is in a huge market with a large fan base in a wide geographic area. Operate like a MLB franchise instead of a company softball team, and good things may come their way

 

Your harping on the Sox having no money to operate properly makes as much sense as the American car makers, decades back blaming the Japanese for stealing a huge share of the market, by being able to produce a quality product for the same money.

 

The way it works in American enterprise, is.. you offer a product to the consumer, and if you get no takers, you figure out a way to turn the tide and make the product more attractive to the consumer. In other words, assume some responsibility and accountability. It's not that hard to understand. It doesn't get anymore basic than that

[Soxfest]

The reality of revenue is this. The White Sox are no where near the big market teams in terms of dollars earned. The Yankees brought in $516 million in revenue last year. Tampa brought in $193 million. The White Sox brought in $240million.

That's on JR 100%, not the fans. Way past time too sell.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Soxfest

[Dick Allen]

At the end of the day, the White Sox are a product and Nightengale just blamed the f***ing customers.

 

This is akin to blaming patrons for not coming to a restaurant when the food isn't good.

 

It's just a product to consume, and if the people around this organization don't appreciate what isn't exactly a cheap proposition for entertainment, and aren't willing to provide a product worth consuming, then they can go f*** themselves.

 

Dick, if the manager isn't to be blamed for having a lack of talent then I see absolutely zero reason to tender an offer to Robin. I still ask you - what has he DONE to warrant your support?

The team plays hard. The players seem to like playing for him. I don't think it's a must he return, I just don't think it's this huge deal, no chance to win thing if he's here. They did win 85 games in 2012 with him at the helm.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

If you want an idea how the White Sox FO really feels about the fanbase, read that follow up Nightengale piece. f*** this organization.

Yup. Haven't watched since the Tilson injury and haven't looked back until I saw this piece. Unbelievable it really is that I continue to hate this organization even more by the day. The fact that this is even a discussion is a disgrace. Love Robin as a player. Manager? He sucks but this organization has failed him countless times. It all starts at the top with that clown Jerry Reinsdorf. f*** him. This organization is starting to bring in better young talent but the top 3 (JR, Kenny and Hahn) is such a mess that it overshadows what's going on down the pipeline. I dare them to bring this clown back. The fact that Nightengale s*** on the fans in his piece tells me all I need to know about this organization and how they feel. They act like they're the damn Yankees or Red Sox. I'm disgusted with this organization.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The team plays hard. The players seem to like playing for him. I don't think it's a must he return, I just don't think it's this huge deal, no chance to win thing if he's here. They did win 85 games in 2012 with him at the helm.

Also choked down the stretch and have been terrible ever since.

[southsider2k5]

Quit crying about how the Sox have no money to operate while all the others teams do. They have no one to blame but themselves. One franchise debilitating move after another over the years has taken its toll on the organization. The organization is in a huge market with a large fan base in a wide geographic area. Operate like a MLB franchise instead of a company softball team, and good things may come their way

 

Your harping on the Sox having no money to operate properly makes as much sense as the American car makers, decades back blaming the Japanese for stealing a huge share of the market, by being able to produce a quality product for the same money.

 

The way it works in American enterprise, is.. you offer a product to the consumer, and if you get no takers, you figure out a way to turn the tide and make the product more attractive to the consumer. In other words, assume some responsibility and accountability. It's not that hard to understand. It doesn't get anymore basic than that

 

Again, even with another $100 million, or a 40+% increase in revenue, they would STILL be closer to last than first. I get people hate JR, but I wish they wouldn't let that color the actual facts.

[Dick Allen]

Also choked down the stretch and have been terrible ever since.

Not really. Paulie got hurt. Youk got hurt. Sale ran out of gas. 12 rookie pitchers. It just wasn't to be.

[Hatchetman]

Quit crying about how the Sox have no money to operate while all the others teams do. They have no one to blame but themselves. One franchise debilitating move after another over the years has taken its toll on the organization. The organization is in a huge market with a large fan base in a wide geographic area. Operate like a MLB franchise instead of a company softball team, and good things may come their way

 

Your harping on the Sox having no money to operate properly makes as much sense as the American car makers, decades back blaming the Japanese for stealing a huge share of the market, by being able to produce a quality product for the same money.

 

The way it works in American enterprise, is.. you offer a product to the consumer, and if you get no takers, you figure out a way to turn the tide and make the product more attractive to the consumer. In other words, assume some responsibility and accountability. It's not that hard to understand. It doesn't get anymore basic than that

 

Well said.

[captain54]

Again, even with another $100 million, or a 40+% increase in revenue, they would STILL be closer to last than first. I get people hate JR, but I wish they wouldn't let that color the actual facts.

 

And what would be the "facts" you could possibly offer to back up your assumption?

[southsider2k5]

And what would be the "facts" you could possibly offer to back up your assumption?

 

You literally had to read it to get to that point of the post.

[Greg Hibbard]

The team plays hard. The players seem to like playing for him. I don't think it's a must he return, I just don't think it's this huge deal, no chance to win thing if he's here. They did win 85 games in 2012 with him at the helm.

 

The team plays hard???? How do you know they play as hard as they can???

 

They seem to like playing for him???? I DON'T GIVE A s***. Go play for Drake f***ing LaRoche.

 

85 wins is what you remember about 2012? My f***ing god.

 

What I remember is the team going 7-10 at home in September and October.

 

What I remember is the team going 13-18 down the stretch when they had a chance to win the division.

 

What I remember is a massive f***ing chokejob. And THAT'S what we should be looking to, when considering bringing back Ventura?

 

Are you f***ing kidding?

 

Should we hang a gold star on the White Sox 2006 3rd place 90 win campaign, now?

What if we make a gold statue of Jamie Burke getting run over by Torii Hunter in 2004? I mean, that team won 83 games. Who cares what place they finished in? Jamie Burke never hit the ground so hard as when Ozzie Guillen managed him.

 

Right?

 

[Eminor3rd]

I just don't understand how you can all be so convinced that Robin Ventura is what needs to change to turn this team into a winner.

 

I'm not saying Robin is good or deserves a contract extension, but just who cares? He fills out the lineup card. The players have to win. They are professionals, they know how to train. If they don't hit, it has jack to do with the manager.

 

The team plays hard???? How do you know they play as hard as they can???

 

They seem to like playing for him???? I DON'T GIVE A s***. Go play for Drake f***ing LaRoche.

 

85 wins is what you remember about 2012? My f***ing god.

 

What I remember is the team going 7-10 at home in September and October.

 

What I remember is the team going 13-18 down the stretch when they had a chance to win the division.

 

What I remember is a massive f***ing chokejob. And THAT'S what we should be looking to, when considering bringing back Ventura?

 

Are you f***ing kidding?

 

Should we hang a gold star on the White Sox 2006 3rd place 90 win campaign, now?

What if we make a gold statue of Jamie Burke getting run over by Torii Hunter in 2004? I mean, that team won 83 games. Who cares what place they finished in? Jamie Burke never hit the ground so hard as when Ozzie Guillen managed him.

 

Right?

 

That post ^ seems like it would be a reaction to "Hahn says White Sox roster is a finished product for 2017." All of that stuff is you being disappointed with a baseball team, and yet you're saying it regarding the job security of an American League manager.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[Greg Hibbard]

Because Robin Ventura CAN be changed, VERY EASILY, WITHOUT COSTING ANYTHING, and likely more than one thing about this formula isn't working.

 

Because Robin Ventura has a LONG TRACK RECORD with several different team compositions, and he is not even CLOSE to .500 as a manager.

[Eminor3rd]

Because Robin Ventura CAN be changed, VERY EASILY, WITHOUT COSTING ANYTHING, and likely more than one thing about this formula isn't working.

 

Because Robin Ventura has a LONG TRACK RECORD with several different team compositions, and he is not even CLOSE to .500 as a manager.

 

But what do you want Robin to do differently? What would you have a new manager do differently? I mean, I think we can all think of some instances where we disagreed with some of Robin;'s bullpen moves, but like really, what is this team lacking from a manager that is preventing it from winning?

 

I get that it's attractive to use the manager as a scapegoat. But if you really JUST want someone's head to roll, I think it's all a waste of bluster. Because if the front office fires the manager and then trots the same half-assed team out there, are you really going to be satisfied?

 

Yes, Robin has a losing record as a manager. So does the janitor, I guess. Who cares? Neither of them win or lose games. Front offices use managers as "fall guys" to placate angry fan mobs. It's a nearly meaningless gesture and it SHOULDN'T be enough for you. Don't let them pass off a different manager as a proxy for change.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[Bob Sacamano]

I don't think anyone on here is saying to only change Ventura. As one said, he can be replaced easily. I for one want a scrub down of the front office before this team makes moves and the coaching staff (minus MAYBE Herm Schneider).

Edited September 29, 2016 by soxfan2014

[caulfield12]

The reality of revenue is this. The White Sox are no where near the big market teams in terms of dollars earned. The Yankees brought in $516 million in revenue last year. Tampa brought in $193 million. The White Sox brought in $240million.

 

But there's no correlation there with winning recently...and the Yankees, especially in terms of the World Series. Otoh, you can obviously compete where the Royals, Astros, Pirates, Indians, etc., are in terms of revenues but the margin of error is that much much smaller. That's why you have also the Red Sox bouncing up and down but having the ability every year to finish in first, at least, if things go right. The common denominator is a superior farm system talent and quality depth.

 

Nobody has ever compared the Sox with the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers or Cubs. It's irrelevant. Of course, we only hear how Ilitch is creating a train wreck with reckless spending in Detroit, but the Tigers' fans have had a good product there to consume for going on 11 years now at least.

 

Finally, Minnesota, Cleveland and KC all have/had much smaller revenue streams than the Sox the last 15+ years and almost always seem to kick our butts, too. Tampa Bay has been much more cost-efficient as well, since you name-dropped them.

[southsider2k5]

But there's no correlation there with winning recently...and the Yankees, especially in terms of the World Series. Otoh, you can obviously compete where the Royals, Astros, Pirates, Indians, etc., are in terms of revenues but the margin of error is that much much smaller. That's why you have also the Red Sox bouncing up and down but having the ability every year to finish in first, at least, if things go right. The common denominator is a superior farm system talent and quality depth.

 

Nobody has ever compared the Sox with the Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Dodgers or Cubs. It's irrelevant. Of course, we only hear how Ilitch is creating a train wreck with reckless spending in Detroit, but the Tigers' fans have had a good product there to consume for going on 11 years now at least.

 

Finally, Minnesota, Cleveland and KC all have/had much smaller revenue streams than the Sox the last 15+ years and almost always seem to kick our butts, too. Tampa Bay has been much more cost-efficient as well, since you name-dropped them.

 

Didn't you just post that all of the teams in post season contention are all top revenue teams except for one?

[caulfield12]

Again, even with another $100 million, or a 40+% increase in revenue, they would STILL be closer to last than first. I get people hate JR, but I wish they wouldn't let that color the actual facts.

 

What is the average revenue of the middle 10 MLB teams?

 

#11-20.

 

Get out of here acting like we're Tampa. 25 other teams in baseball are also closer to Tampa than the Yankees.

 

All this does is suggest the team be sold because there's no shot to compete, but at least we don't have to deal with the Cubs and Cardinals and Pirates every year. The AL Central doesn't have any financial juggernauts like the east and west coast teams.

[Greg Hibbard]

But what do you want Robin to do differently?

 

For starters, should we talk about Jimmy Rollins?

Edited September 29, 2016 by Greg Hibbard

[caulfield12]

Didn't you just post that all of the teams in post season contention are all top revenue teams except for one?

 

Nope.

 

That was top half though...the White Sox were #16 coming into the season.

 

If we can't operate in that 8-16 space (and 8 was the franchise value according to Forbes less than a decade ago), what's the point?

[caulfield12]

But what do you want Robin to do differently? What would you have a new manager do differently? I mean, I think we can all think of some instances where we disagreed with some of Robin;'s bullpen moves, but like really, what is this team lacking from a manager that is preventing it from winning?

 

I get that it's attractive to use the manager as a scapegoat. But if you really JUST want someone's head to roll, I think it's all a waste of bluster. Because if the front office fires the manager and then trots the same half-assed team out there, are you really going to be satisfied?

 

Yes, Robin has a losing record as a manager. So does the janitor, I guess. Who cares? Neither of them win or lose games. Front offices use managers as "fall guys" to placate angry fan mobs. It's a nearly meaningless gesture and it SHOULDN'T be enough for you. Don't let them pass off a different manager as a proxy for change.

 

If the White Sox want to act the opposite of all of MLB teams in regard, great. But at least provide some evidence their plan is working or at least has a decent chance to work.

 

They just shouldn't be surprised when a majority of the fans reject their operating philosophy. Has a school district under pressure from parents ever kept a principal in place with a record of such poor results without trying a change in leadership?

 

Why are they trying to prove they're smarter than everyone else (especially their own fans) when there's almost nothing they can point to as reasons why he should be retained?

 

I'm almost ready to believe they can just change the tagline for 2017 to Returning the Pride, change little of the roster and still believe nobody will be any the wiser.

 

[southsider2k5]

Nope.

 

That was top half though...the White Sox were #16 coming into the season.

 

If we can't operate in that 8-16 space (and 8 was the franchise value according to Forbes less than a decade ago), what's the point?

 

It must have been someone else then. They literally just posted that all of the top revenue teams except for two are on the verge of playoff births, while only one low revenue team is.

[captain54]

You literally had to read it to get to that point of the post.

 

Yes, I see... it's hard to follow bits and pieces of posts scattered about..

 

You said:

 

To further expand on this. Even if the Sox ran the table, and made another $100 million, they would STILL be closer to Tampa in revenue than the Yankees.

 

If the Sox had a 40% increase in revenue, they would be tied for 5th in MLB with the Cubs in incoming $$$... Yes, they'd still be closer to Tampa in $$$ than the Yankees, but so would 25 other teams, so .. who cares?

 

the bigger issue.. why are the White Sox the smallest revenue earning franchise, among big city teams, in all of MLB? not even being able to crack the top 15?

Edited September 29, 2016 by captain54

[southsider2k5]

Yes, I see... it's hard to follow bits and pieces of posts scattered about..

 

You said:

 

To further expand on this. Even if the Sox ran the table, and made another $100 million, they would STILL be closer to Tampa in revenue than the Yankees.

 

If the Sox had a 40% increase in revenue, they would be tied for 5th in MLB with the Cubs in incoming $$... Yes, they'd still be closer to Tampa in $$ than the Yankees, but so would 25 other teams, so .. who cares?

 

the bigger issue.. why are the White Sox the smallest revenue earning franchise, among big city teams, in all of MLB? not even being able to crack the top 15?

 

Because the White Sox are the 2nd team in the smallest market with multiple teams.