oldsox Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 07:42 AM) You honestly think a good manager is worth an extra 6 wins a year? Come on. That would rank them the equivalent of a top caliber player. If that were the case they would make far greater money than they do. Now you've done it. Someone will come up with a WAR for Managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 07:09 AM) Maddon helped the Cubs win 6 extra games or so. Savvy trades for Rizzo, Arieta, Hendricks, Russell and a closer nabbed in Rule V were worth a lot more wins. And not a "proven veteran" among them, Kenny Williams. Lester, Lackey, Zobrist, Heyward, Chapman, Fowler, Coughlan. Yeah, no hero worshipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 04:12 PM) I'd say that (1) is more correct, with the major caveat that the current ownership group's poor decision-making decades ago directly resulted in their current second-class status. Back in the early '80s, there was no clear-cut #1 baseball team in Chicago. Given Chicago's North Side/South Side baseball balkanization culture and modern society's downright slavish devotion to political parties, I think that the Sox front office gets a pass for not "converting" Cubs fans after winning the WS. Adults aren't going to switch their allegiance and their kids typically follow the team that their parents follow. Enter the "JR and Einhorn blunders" you mentioned earlier. They took the Sox off of superstation WGN and hid them away on the ill-fated SportsVision, while simultaneously allowing Harry Caray to go to the Cubs to become the rockstar he would become promoting them on WGN, and POOF! The Cubs were the clear-cut #1 team in Chicago by the mid '80s, and have been ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:11 AM) Enter the "JR and Einhorn blunders" you mentioned earlier. They took the Sox off of superstation WGN and hid them away on the ill-fated SportsVision, while simultaneously allowing Harry Caray to go to the Cubs to become the rockstar he would become promoting them on WGN, and POOF! The Cubs were the clear-cut #1 team in Chicago by the mid '80s, and have been ever since. The funny thing is the Cubs are about to go start their own cable network. If this theory is right, the Sox should be back in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 09:08 PM) Each of those tickets has more spending at the park to go with it, not to mention the things like bigger advertising dollars from having more people watching games, higher ratings etc. I'll never understand why some fans are so concerned over JR's pocketbook. He has enough money to win, often spends enough money to win (obviously not this year), almost always falls short of winning, and refuses to do anything about it. I don't hate the guy, and I even appreciate the amount he's has been willing to spend in the past despite lower revenues. But, the fact of the matter is that he's just a bad owner. His blind loyalty without any need for results is holding this organization back; the fact that guys like KW and Buddy Bell are still a part of his front office is a travesty. Hahn is getting there himself. This Robin Ventura story is just a microcosm of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) The funny thing is the Cubs are about to go start their own cable network. If this theory is right, the Sox should be back in no time. I am sure that local cable has a higher subscriber rate than Sportsvision's 20k to 30k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) The funny thing is the Cubs are about to go start their own cable network. If this theory is right, the Sox should be back in no time. Completely different eras, but it will definitely be interesting to see how these new mega deals work out. I suppose if they keep winning it won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:33 AM) I am sure that local cable has a higher subscriber rate than Sportsvision's 20k to 30k. Except their network won't be on local cable to start. It is an absolute certainty that they will not be on TV anymore in the entire Chicago network. The Yankees and Dodgers haven't been able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:11 AM) Enter the "JR and Einhorn blunders" you mentioned earlier. They took the Sox off of superstation WGN and hid them away on the ill-fated SportsVision, while simultaneously allowing Harry Caray to go to the Cubs to become the rockstar he would become promoting them on WGN, and POOF! The Cubs were the clear-cut #1 team in Chicago by the mid '80s, and have been ever since. You do realize when they did this, the Sox outdrew the Cubs. What happened was 1984. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 09:36 AM) You do realize when they did this, the Sox outdrew the Cubs. What happened was 1984. ....with Harry Caray promoting 1984 on WGN and turning the Cubs instantly into both a local and national sensation. Did that happen to Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn's White Sox after their 1983 season on SportsVision? No. Would it have happened if Harry was broadcasting the '83 season on WGN? You betcha. At least Harry thought so, and I agree with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Imagine an alternate history where JR does not fire Harry Caray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 09:47 AM) ....with Harry Caray promoting 1984 on WGN and turning the Cubs instantly into both a local and national sensation. Did that happen to Jerry Reinsdorf and Eddie Einhorn's White Sox after their 1983 season on SportsVision? No. Would it have happened if Harry was broadcasting the '83 season on WGN? You betcha. At least Harry thought so, and I agree with him. I agree with you here. The Cubs grew a national fan base when Harry and Steve were broadcasting nationally on WGN (Reinsdorf and Einhorn's fault), and the Sox lost a decent chunk of their fan base after Reinsdorf's hard-line stance tanked the '94 season with the Sox in first place. Those are the two major reasons for the disparity in popularity between the two franchises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 1985-1989 JR was one of the masterminds of Collusion. Sox needed to fill a ton of holes and wouldn't even sign old bums as fill ins. At the same time he was threatening/planning to move the team to Florida. Great times to be a Sox fan! The current situation is much better IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 12:15 PM) I agree with you here. The Cubs grew a national fan base when Harry and Steve were broadcasting nationally on WGN (Reinsdorf and Einhorn's fault), and the Sox lost a decent chunk of their fan base after Reinsdorf's hard-line stance tanked the '94 season with the Sox in first place. Those are the two major reasons for the disparity in popularity between the two franchises. Except the White Sox leanest attendance years happened while Carry was still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 11:20 AM) Imagine an alternate history where JR does not fire Harry Caray. 1982,1983,1984 the White Sox outdrew the Cubs while Harry was promoting them on the superstation and for a time, the Sox were on Sportsvision. It's a great theory, but the Sox had Harry, and didn't exactly fill the place. Edited September 30, 2016 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 So you guys are saying Milo Hamilton (or Dwayne Staats, whatever) would've become a national sensation just like Harry did for the Cubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 02:17 PM) So you guys are saying Milo Hamilton (or Dwayne Staats, whatever) would've become a national sensation just like Harry did for the Cubs? Sure. They did 3 or 4 innings every game anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 11:29 AM) Except the White Sox leanest attendance years happened while Carry was still here. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) 1982,1983,1984 the White Sox outdrew the Cubs while Harry was promoting them on the superstation and for a time, the Sox were on Sportsvision. It's a great theory, but the Sox had Harry, and didn't exactly fill the place. The Sox and Cubs were drawing roughly similar crowds form the mid '70s to early '80s. Caray made a difference for the Cubs because he was on national TV. At the same time, the Sox were on their pay network (and UHF directly before that, IIRC). I'm not arguing that Caray alone was the difference-maker - it was the combination of Caray and WGN's national audience that helped the Cubs before more popular at the time. (And, yes, the 1984 NLCS didn't hurt, either.) Edited September 30, 2016 by Black_Jack29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 03:30 PM) The Sox and Cubs were drawing roughly similar crowds form the mid '70s to early '80s. Caray made a difference for the Cubs because he was on national TV. At the same time, the Sox were on their pay network (and UHF directly before that, IIRC). I'm not arguing that Caray alone was the difference-maker - it was the combination of Caray and WGN's national audience that helped the Cubs before more popular at the time. (And, yes, the 1984 NLCS didn't hurt, either.) 100% correct. Thank you for correcting the revisionist history going on around this topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 03:45 PM) 100% correct. Thank you for correcting the revisionist history going on around this topic! Meh, the others have decent points. The Cubs going to the NLCS certainly helped. It just seems like it took a few years for Harry/WGN to really make its mark. Interesting note: The scene at Wrigley in Ferris Beuller's Day Off was originally supposed to be filmed at Comiskey (John Hughes is a Sox fan), but was changed at the last minute due to time constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 12:29 PM) Except the White Sox leanest attendance years happened while Carry was still here. That was due to John Allyn and Veeck not being able to figure out (with the exception of 72' and 77') how to put a good product on the field, not Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 QUOTE (captain54 @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 04:32 PM) That was due to John Allyn and Veeck not being able to figure out (with the exception of 72' and 77') how to put a good product on the field, not Harry. Like the Tribune Company did with the Cubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain54 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 04:47 PM) Like the Tribune Company did with the Cubs. After more than a decade of futility, the Tribune put Dallas Green on board to revamp the organization. They put a winner on the field in 84' and turned the franchise around Jerry Reinsdorf: take note Edited September 30, 2016 by captain54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 I've been thinking more about this. It's impossible to bring Robin back. How in the hell are the Sox salespeople going to sell ANY season tickets. You can't stay status quo. Our team is too s***ty to stay status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 30, 2016 -> 10:36 AM) What happened was 1984. The cubz bandwagon started filling up when Harry Carey moved from the White Sox to the Cubs in 1981. That was huge. It exposed much of the country to Harry and the Cubs via Super station WGN. How cute those Cubbies were to toothless bumpkins in Iowa and throughout the WGN viewing area, and how comfortable grandparents were with folksy Harry, starting his broadcasts, "Hello everybaddy.." Yea, Cubz picked up a lot of fans, especially in remote cities and towns lacking a MLB franchise. There is not question though that Sox ownership were foolish with that nonsense paid Sportsvision. And that came on the heels of substandard WSNS UHF TV broadcasts of Sox games. Dumb and dumber. The thing that turned the dynamic of Cubs/Sox fandom around in a substantial way was how cubs fans were viewed after their behavior at and following the infamous 2003 Bartman game. Then on the heels of that debacle, the surprise World Series Championship that was waiting for our City in 2005. Shock (2003) and Awe (2005). It would be hilarious if the Cubs choked in the playoffs and something like that happened again. Edited September 30, 2016 by miracleon35th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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