Price rising for Sale and Q

[Balta1701]

So, one point I've been thinking about today with regards to "price for Sale and Q rising" - there's some nonzero risk of holding these guys too long and being too patient this offseason that at least should be considered.

 

As basically everyone has noted, the Free Agent market this season is terrible. There are only a handful of guys who could make a difference on any given ballclub.

 

Let's imagine that this situation creates an early offseason run on the available free agent talent, that guys like Desmond, Fowler, and the catchers are signed in November and off the market. There are teams that simply must sign players at some of these positions otherwise they will be playing the trade market just to have anyone there, particularly with the catchers I think.

 

If the White Sox hold their ground waiting for someone to meet their price, it is of course possible some team could get deseprate as the FA supply shrinks, but let's say that doesn't happen and teams hold firm.

 

Where do the White Sox wind up after the winter meetings? By that point, the free agent market would be utterly barren. If the White Sox have decided to play the game of being patient - yes they could continue holding these guys into the season, but what sort of season have they set up? They would have missed out on any potential FA upgrades, and they'd be scraping the bottom of the barrel in mid December to find people who could just play the positions they have open.

 

If they're actually going to trade these guys or seriously considering it, there's a risk in waiting too long. They can't go out and sign Fowler to the richest contract in team history and then find the next day that JBJ is put on the market by Boston, but they can't wait for Fowler and the other FAs to be sucked up by someone else if they're not going to trade these guys because then they enter next season with the same moribund roster they had this year.

 

Basically - there's actual pressure here. If they don't get a worthy offer early, you might not want to wait on the market.

[Harry Chappas]

Yes, and MadBum pitched in 2.5 of the 7 games. He pitched 21 of the 63 innings. Despite a historic performance and atypical overuse due to desperation, Bumgarner was only involved in one-third of the innings in that series. That would be like if Tom Brady could on play in the first quarter and a half of the Super Bowl.

 

And when you think about the rest of the year, it's even less. Bumgarner made 33 starts in 2014, which is 20% of the teams 162 games. What if Tom Brady only played in 3.25 games every season?

 

It just doesn't add up. It's no knock on MadBum or Chris Sale, it's just a fact that we fans have to accept. As sexy as an ace is, one player simply cannot dominate in baseball the way a QB or NBA star can, and that informs the prices that teams are going to pay.

 

In baseball you can lose playoff games in football you cannot. I think the comparison would be Brady playing the first three quarters of the super bowl or playoff game.

[SI1020]

He was a 4.9 WAR player last year (to Sale's 5.2) and is under control for 1 more year. I agree he's less valuable, but it's closer than you think.

So I guess we should trade Sale for Bradley and any other player with 0.4 WAR and be ahead of the game. If the other player has a 2.0 WAR then it's a steal. Edited October 11, 2016 by SI1020

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I assume that the Red Sox wouldn't WANT to trade both JBJ and Benintendi, but they do have Holt who can play the OF everyday. Plus they could sign a Reddick or Cespedes, or could get a Melky back in a bigger trade involving Sale.

 

 

Sale and Melky

 

JBJ, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech and Rodriguez

Kicking around this idea of Sale to Boston, I've thought about this including Melky in the deal to give them an OFer.

Edited October 11, 2016 by SouthSideSale

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Bradley fell off hard from a hitting standpoint late this season. Definitely a warning flag, in terms of his value.

I said it 6 weeks ago that I would be PISSED if JBJ was the centerpiece of a Sale deal. He has bust written all over him if he ended up on the south side (from an offensive standpoint).

[ChiSox59]

I said it 6 weeks ago that I would be PISSED if JBJ was the centerpiece of a Sale deal. He has bust written all over him if he ended up on the south side (from an offensive standpoint).

 

Centerpeice - meaning we don't get Moncada/Devers or Benintendi/Devers, I would agree.

 

If JBJ is in the deal with Benintendi and Devers, or Moncada and Devers, I am cool with it. His OF defense in CF and keeping Eaton in RF would be phenominal. An OF of Benintendi / JBJ / Eaton would be one of the best, if not the best, defensively in MLB.

[southsider2k5]

Kicking around this idea of Sale to Boston, I've thought about this including Melky in the deal to give them an OFer.

 

Now that could be an interesting way to fix the problem of Boston dealing two OFs in the same deal. I wonder what they think of him.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Centerpeice - meaning we don't get Moncada/Devers or Benintendi/Devers, I would agree.

 

If JBJ is in the deal with Benintendi and Devers, or Moncada and Devers, I am cool with it. His OF defense in CF and keeping Eaton in RF would be phenominal. An OF of Benintendi / JBJ / Eaton would be one of the best, if not the best, defensively in MLB.

Yea it has to include one of their other top two prospects also and then some solid depth for the deal to make sense. JBJ and a bunch of good but not great prospects should not even be in consideration. BTW, take a look at these ugly splits from JBJ. Mediocre hitter away from Fenway and it's even worse from 2013-2015. Also, struggled mightily against LHP this season. He's the kind of guy that puts up a slash line of 250/325/750 in a White Sox uniform. I realize that has value as a good defensive CF but not as the centerpiece when trading a top 5 pitcher in baseball.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/32362

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

How about Sale to Boston for Benintendi (MLB ready player), Devers (if no Moncada), Groome (their #1 pick, left handed starter), Kopech, and a young MLB ready starter back (Rodriguez or Owens)? Is that far off or somewhat close?

 

If Moncada was in that deal above, likely remove Devers and a pitcher I would think.

Edited October 11, 2016 by soxfan2014

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard.

 

I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF.

 

I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox.

 

So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible.

 

My deals in order of preference and least likelihood:

 

1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson.

2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson

3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe

 

I am no sure if this

Re: JBJ, I don't think those numbers are a sure thing in a WS uni (far from it), check his splits. Plus he'd be asked to do much more in the White Sox lineup than he's asked to in the Red Sox lineup with a worse supporting cast.

Edited October 11, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[ChiSoxFanMike]

I really don't understand the JBJ love. Give me Benintendi instead.

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm definitely a fan of Swihart being in the deal as a last piece and I know people hate how he was moved off catcher, but wasn't it just because Vazquez is better defensively and to fill a need in LF?

Edited October 11, 2016 by soxfan2014

[southsider2k5]

I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard.

 

I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF.

 

I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox.

 

So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible.

 

My deals in order of preference and least likelihood:

 

1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson.

2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson

3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe

 

There is a ton of really solid logic in this post.

[Bob Sacamano]

The bolded could and will be said about any player the Sox will potentially acquire. It's going to change at some point. However, given Boston had the best offense in the AL, I'd expect him to dip on his career numbers a bit but it's not as if he's going to lose his ability to walk, power or athletic ability. Even if he performs at the 10th-20th of his projection, he's 15-20 dingers, .230/.310/.400 with great defense in an up the middle position.

 

The italicized isn't a thing. Unless you're a star on a s***ty team you just play within yourself. I am not sure why JBJ would be subjected to some immense amount of pressure on a team where the barriers to be of the best are low and the amount of people watching are of the least.

 

 

What's not to like? I prefer Benintendi because I think he is a three hitter in CF for six years too but JBJ is a great player.

 

He's essentially a better version of pre-2016 Jason Heyward. More power and no question of whether he can handle CF. Heyward nearly got 200 million on the free market. It should be noted that part of Heyward's contract came from him being so young when he reached FA but still, Heyward is no lock in CF and JBJ has more power.

 

 

I think it was in part to that. I remember he had problems with Farrell too. The Red Sox obviously weren't going to move Vazquez with his chops behind the dish. Red Sox are just flush with catchers. They had Hanigan and despite him having a horrible year batting, he's awesome defensively and with pitchers. Then they have Vazquez/Swihart. Then they pick up a jouneyman catcher in Leon and he dominates. Swihart was probably just the young guy with most athletic ability and least defensive ability behind the plate.

 

Sox were supposedly very interested in Swihart according to some Boston writer during this year. I heard that radio guy (Lifs***z?) who said the BoSox-Sox were talking Sale last year wasn't full of it. Not saying it was close to a deal, but the Sox gauged Sale's value and the teams talked packages.

 

Could definitely see a deal happening between the two. Especially if the Red Sox decide to go out and replace Ortiz's power with a Cespedes or Desmond signing (I don't see Edwin coming over unless they either A) decide to play Pablo at third or B) just straight release him (don't see this scenario).

Edited October 11, 2016 by soxfan2014

[gatnom]

So I guess we should trade Sale for Bradley and any other player with 0.4 WAR and be ahead of the game. If the other player has a 2.0 WAR then it's a steal.

 

Yes, this is exactly what I said.

 

 

[ChiSox59]

I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard.

 

I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF.

 

I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox.

 

So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible.

 

My deals in order of preference and least likelihood:

 

1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson.

2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson

3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe

 

Nice post. I would be livid with that third trade. Sox need to do better than that.

[Jose Abreu]

So, one point I've been thinking about today with regards to "price for Sale and Q rising" - there's some nonzero risk of holding these guys too long and being too patient this offseason that at least should be considered.

 

As basically everyone has noted, the Free Agent market this season is terrible. There are only a handful of guys who could make a difference on any given ballclub.

 

Let's imagine that this situation creates an early offseason run on the available free agent talent, that guys like Desmond, Fowler, and the catchers are signed in November and off the market. There are teams that simply must sign players at some of these positions otherwise they will be playing the trade market just to have anyone there, particularly with the catchers I think.

 

If the White Sox hold their ground waiting for someone to meet their price, it is of course possible some team could get deseprate as the FA supply shrinks, but let's say that doesn't happen and teams hold firm.

 

Where do the White Sox wind up after the winter meetings? By that point, the free agent market would be utterly barren. If the White Sox have decided to play the game of being patient - yes they could continue holding these guys into the season, but what sort of season have they set up? They would have missed out on any potential FA upgrades, and they'd be scraping the bottom of the barrel in mid December to find people who could just play the positions they have open.

 

If they're actually going to trade these guys or seriously considering it, there's a risk in waiting too long. They can't go out and sign Fowler to the richest contract in team history and then find the next day that JBJ is put on the market by Boston, but they can't wait for Fowler and the other FAs to be sucked up by someone else if they're not going to trade these guys because then they enter next season with the same moribund roster they had this year.

 

Basically - there's actual pressure here. If they don't get a worthy offer early, you might not want to wait on the market.

Well put. We need to strike during or before the Winter Meetings.

 

[Eminor3rd]

In baseball you can lose playoff games in football you cannot. I think the comparison would be Brady playing the first three quarters of the super bowl or playoff game.

 

It's not though -- that's what makes it non-intuitive, but it's important. You have to think about it as the percentage of time that the player is contributing. Brady contributes to the Patriots 80-90% of the time the team is on the field, and the rest is most garbage time. An ace contributes 20-25% of the time in the season, and maybe 30% during the season.

[Jose Abreu]

Bradley is great but his offensive decline this year does worry me. I think Sale and Robertson for Benintendi, Kopech, Groome, Devers, and Swihart is both reasonable and a fair trade. They get to keep Bradley/Moncada. Maybe drop one of Groome/Devers if Boston says no.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Jose Abreu

[ChiSox59]

The italicized isn't a thing. Unless you're a star on a s***ty team you just play within yourself. I am not sure why JBJ would be subjected to some immense amount of pressure on a team where the barriers to be of the best are low and the amount of people watching are of the least.

 

I think he moreso meant that JBJ wouldn't have nearly as much protection in the WS lineup. In Boston's lineup, he was sort of an after thought and probably saw a lot of great pitches. That wouldn't be the case with the Sox, especially if Melky and Todd are moved in a larger rebuild.

 

[Whisox05]

Im really not big on getting jackie Bradley jr. Yes he would plug a hole now but you are only talking 4 years of control. Hes a boras client and with him seeming to be turning the corner for better is definitely going to free agency and going to cost a pretty penny. If hes included in a deal for sale then you are probably getting less amount of prospects back. Also if hes included are we going to be talking about trading him again because the sox cant let him walk in free agency for nothing cause they cant sign him. To me i would rather be trying to get a package of moncada, Benintendi, devers, kopech as a starting point cause they will have far more control.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The italicized isn't a thing. Unless you're a star on a s***ty team you just play within yourself. I am not sure why JBJ would be subjected to some immense amount of pressure on a team where the barriers to be of the best are low and the amount of people watching are of the least.

Strongly disagree. Hitting ahead of or behind other great hitters absolutely has an impact on one's performance. If JBJ is surrounded by a bunch of guys like JB Shuck (obv. extreme to make the point), you think he sees as many good pitches to hit as when he's surrounded by the Red Sox offense? Also, there are guys that just don't perform leading off or hitting at the top of the order and excel while batting in the lower part of the order. This is a similar effect to some relievers that are awesome at mid relief/setup but can't close. The mental aspect of baseball is a thing and devalued more and more in this new age of statistical analysis.

[Black_Jack29]

I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard.

 

I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF.

 

I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox.

 

So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible.

 

My deals in order of preference and least likelihood:

 

1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson.

2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson

3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe

 

 

[Dunt]

In no particular order:

 

CF Jackie Bradley Jr.

RF Adam Eaton

2B Yoan Moncada

1B Jose Abreu

SS Tim Anderson

C Christian Vazquez/Black Swihart

 

LF Melky Cabrera

3B Todd Frazier

 

 

Those are average, plus or plus plus assets at each position. In this hypothetical, you'd have to figure they'll trade rentals in Frazier/Cabrera after but it scares me that if trading Sale were the first move and we got what we're hoping from the BoSox, all of a sudden our lineup looks really formidable in the immediate future. I just don't want the Sox to cut their rebuild short again but my feeling is they could move Sale for a haul and then just make a handful of small moves. I am not saying dive into a rebuild and trade Q/Abreu/Eaton too, but leave everything on the table.

 

It's amazing, past Boston, I can't really find a package I like. The Dodgers could put one together if they'd include Pederson or Urias.

 

The Rangers had surrendered a lot of their depth in July and Profar/Gallo are losing more shine each and every day. Mazara can't do it himself.

 

Yankees should be a serious competitor, especially given Boston's interest, but the Yankees just have a gang of top 100 prospects but no one player that headlines that could really make you feel comfortable about moving the best LHP in the world not named Kershaw on a bargain of a contract. There's no Moncada, JBJ, Benintendi, Urias, Pederson, etc. type headliner unless they would move Sanchez which is entirely doubtful. Frazier, Judge, Mateo, Torres, Rutherford are all great prospects, but I think I would need the Yanks top 5 prospects with no exception to deal with them.

 

Pirates could get a deal done but that's totally against Huntington's MO to a point it's not even worth considering. Pirates top 20 has plenty of intriguing guys.

 

 

Couple of remarks to this post:

 

1.) I am getting the feeling as well that the Sox are going to trade Sale, plug a few holes, and try to contend again as well. I'm fine with this route personally. Sale has been a great pitcher with the Sox, but if trading him allows you to plug numerous holes and breath some life into the farm system, it's a no brainer. Realistically, you could contend next year with a rotation of Quintana-Gonzalez-Rodon-Fulmer-Shields if Rodon and Fulmer take the necessary next steps.

 

2.) The only two teams other than the Red Sox that have the type of depth to make a play for Sale would be the Pirates and the Astros. The Pirates, as you said, would probably never make a deal with that because it goes against their entire philosophy. I think theyd be more be interested in trading McCutchen for a bunch of prospects and plugging Meadows in. The Astros, in my opinion, are the real dark horse for Sale. They have young MLB talent, they have some exciting pieces in their farm system, and they are in the position that a big move could instantly put them in WS contention. I think he ultimately ends up in Boston or Houston. I'd love to move him out of the AL, but I just don't see who in the NL could make a good enough offer for him. I dont know if the Dodgers could even offer an interesting enough package. Urias, Bellinger, and Verdugo are a good start but I would need more.

 

3.) Im not sure where all the JBJ backlash is coming from either. Plus defender in CF which, when paired with Eaton in RF, would be a MASSIVE upgrade to our OF D. He's put up an OPS of .835 and .832 in back to back seasons now. For a CFer with his type of defense, that is a 4-5 win player annually. He would be a really nice piece to have and one I'd welcome into this organization. With him though, I would need good secondary pieces. I think I'd still prefer Benintendi because of the extra control, but I think Devers and Kopech need to be part of the additional pieces to even begin discussions with either of them.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I think he moreso meant that JBJ wouldn't have nearly as much protection in the WS lineup. In Boston's lineup, he was sort of an after thought and probably saw a lot of great pitches. That wouldn't be the case with the Sox, especially if Melky and Todd are moved in a larger rebuild.

Already replied before seeing this post. Bingo, that's exactly my point and yes it is a real thing. Jose Abreu would see better pitches (less offspeed stuff and more pitches in the zone) if he had Mookie Betts and David Ortiz hitting behind him or in JBJ's case the top of the order since he was hitting 9th in the playoffs for the Red Sox.