Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 03:25 PM) No, I was told that the sox shouldn't have traded a .900 ops outfielder. Then this same outfielder fell off the map after May and now Hahn didn't sell high on an often injured, sometimes decent but mostly not player. the only crapping is the fact that Hahn didn't sell high on him which he clearly did Is the bolded referring to Trayce? Because here's his minor league PAs by year: 2011: 597 2012: 655 2013: 590 2014: 595 2015: 552 (counting big league time) Out of his entire career there's zero precedent for him being "often injured" prior to this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 03:35 PM) Is the bolded referring to Trayce? Because here's his minor league PAs by year: 2011: 597 2012: 655 2013: 590 2014: 595 2015: 552 (counting big league time) Out of his entire career there's zero precedent for him being "often injured" prior to this year. My mistake, I thought I remembered him having issues staying healthy in the minors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) A .700 OPS from TT with strong defense in CF would be just about as valuable to this team as adding Cespedes to RF, if he could do that for the bulk of a season and stay healthy. You keep Eaton in RF and you suddenly have OF defense as one of your team's strengths. I wouldn't have guessed he could do that with the bat before breaking into the big leagues, I'm less certain he can't now. Kevin Pillar put up a .679 OPS this year in CF and was a 3.4 fWAR player. Why is Pillar's WAR a factor here and not Trayce's 0.4? The fact is Trayce was bad defensively in 2016. Why should anyone assume he will be stellar? Edited October 31, 2016 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:04 PM) Why is Pillar's WAR a factor here and not Trayce's 0.4? The fact is Trayce was bad defensively in 2016. Why should anyone assume he will be stellar? Every time I've seen him he's been a strong defender, I don't know what happened in 2016, could have been part of the injuries (I didn't follow him closely enough) but I also hesitate to take partial year defensive stats like that because you're never supposed to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:07 PM) Every time I've seen him he's been a strong defender, I don't know what happened in 2016, could have been part of the injuries (I didn't follow him closely enough) but I also hesitate to take partial year defensive stats like that because you're never supposed to do that. He made a couple of bad plays for the White Sox, but looked decent for sure. He also hit .169 his last 142 PA. They sold him at the right time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Partially because Trayce had an incomplete season so his WAR would be lower. We may have sold at right time, that we received the right piece is again questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:13 PM) Partially because Trayce had an incomplete season so his WAR would be lower. We may have sold at right time, that we received the right piece is again questionable. If the White Sox offered Trayce, Micah, and Frankie in a package this offseason, they would get nothing close to Todd Frazier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:07 PM) Every time I've seen him he's been a strong defender, I don't know what happened in 2016, could have been part of the injuries (I didn't follow him closely enough) but I also hesitate to take partial year defensive stats like that because you're never supposed to do that. Actually, you know what, I found it. The Dodgers used him as a super sub. He was still a decent enough defender in CF (not elite, but very small number of innings out there), but he graded as terrible in both RF and LF almost entirely because of poor "range". I'm betting you've got the combination of perhaps an injury in there fitted with playing multiple positions in a new ballpark. He graded out so poorly in LF he'd have been the worst LF in baseball in the last decade. His 100 inning stint out there graded worse in Fangraphs #s than Hanley Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) If the White Sox offered Trayce, Micah, and Frankie in a package this offseason, they would get nothing close to Todd Frazier. Which is the exact definition of selling high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Not that Mr. Frazier's value hasn't taken a hit as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) If the White Sox offered Trayce, Micah, and Frankie in a package this offseason, they would get nothing close to Todd Frazier. a)Debatable; I suggest it's closer to the Sox would get nothing close to Trayce, Micah and Frankie were they to trade Frazier now. b) Context. What in the world are the Sox doing trading 3 young players or 2 years of a veteran when they had a 76 win team (that, per pythag, wasn't that good). Not as idiotic as the Samardzija trade (especially as Donaldson was acquired for a similar price) but pretty silly. c)Frazier wasn't that great this year, which is par for the course for Rick Hahn veteran acquisitions. Hahn' talent evaluation skills are, shall we say, lacking. d)I expect more of the same this offseason from Rick Hahn, unfortunately. Edited November 1, 2016 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHurt3515 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 08:45 PM) a)Debatable; I suggest it's closer to the Sox would get nothing close to Trayce, Micah and Frankie were they to trade Frazier now. b) Context. What in the world are the Sox doing trading 3 young players or 2 years of a veteran when they had a 76 win team (that, per pythag, wasn't that good). Not as idiotic as the Samardzija trade (especially as Donaldson was acquired for a similar price) but pretty silly. c)Frazier wasn't that great this year, which is par for the course for Rick Hahn veteran acquisitions. Hahn' talent evaluation skills are, shall we say, lacking. d)I expect more of the same this offseason from Rick Hahn, unfortunately. They were playing to win. 3B sucked in 2015 and we traded fringe players for an all-star who hits 30+ bombs and plays pretty good defense. Were you against the trade from the beginning? Tons of people loved this trade and thought it improved our team quite a bit since we needed power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 11:31 PM) They were playing to win. 3B sucked in 2015 and we traded fringe players for an all-star who hits 30+ bombs and plays pretty good defense. Were you against the trade from the beginning? Tons of people loved this trade and thought it improved our team quite a bit since we needed power. He was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 The Frazier deal was fine in isolation but it made no sense in the bigger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:13 AM) The Frazier deal was fine in isolation but it made no sense in the bigger picture. The Frazier deal defines the big picture plan for the White Sox. They constantly believe they are one-two big name players away from competing for the wild card, and that failing to compete for the wild card every year is a mistake, so they should sell out whatever they can to get a big name player at a position of weakness. Put everything on the line and put as many big names on your big league squad as possible regardless of what it does to your organization. That's the Samardzija deal, that's the Frazier deal, that's the free agent signings of the last couple years, that sums up this team going as far back as bringing in Dunn and Rios, with the notable exception of 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) If the White Sox offered Trayce, Micah, and Frankie in a package this offseason, they would get nothing close to Todd Frazier. I think you are way too sure of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:38 AM) The Frazier deal defines the big picture plan for the White Sox. They constantly believe they are one-two big name players away from competing for the wild card, and that failing to compete for the wild card every year is a mistake, so they should sell out whatever they can to get a big name player at a position of weakness. Put everything on the line and put as many big names on your big league squad as possible regardless of what it does to your organization. That's the Samardzija deal, that's the Frazier deal, that's the free agent signings of the last couple years, that sums up this team going as far back as bringing in Dunn and Rios, with the notable exception of 2014. Except there's a caveat to this, they are willing to trade for a "star" but only a star without providing their top prospects. And they are willing to dive into free agency, but not willing to compete for the top names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:59 AM) I think you are way too sure of this. I think he's right. All 3 guy's have had their value hurt. And he means Todd Frazier pre-2016 season than the current one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:59 AM) I think you are way too sure of this. Trayce was worth less than half a WAR when he broke his back. Micah struggled in AAA, and Frankie pitched about 4 innings this year with rib ailments, and still has a troublesome knee. If the Sox had kept all 3, they would have been called idiots for not trading them when they had more value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 You know what would be awesome, if Reinsdorf and McCaskey got someone to buy the Bears and White Sox for $2.5B and they built a retractable stadium that could be used for football, baseball, the superbowl and the NCAA Championships. The World Series showed once again that Chicago can throw a great party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 07:38 AM) The Frazier deal defines the big picture plan for the White Sox. They constantly believe they are one-two big name players away from competing for the wild card, and that failing to compete for the wild card every year is a mistake, so they should sell out whatever they can to get a big name player at a position of weakness. Put everything on the line and put as many big names on your big league squad as possible regardless of what it does to your organization. That's the Samardzija deal, that's the Frazier deal, that's the free agent signings of the last couple years, that sums up this team going as far back as bringing in Dunn and Rios, with the notable exception of 2014. Don't forget the great Jake Peavy Chase... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 09:01 AM) I think he's right. All 3 guy's have had their value hurt. And he means Todd Frazier pre-2016 season than the current one. Oh, okay, so it only matters if the white sox ex prospects lose value. Got it. That's the perfect rebuttal to criticism that it doesn't matter if sox sold high on prospect if they made the wrong decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (bmags @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 10:51 AM) Oh, okay, so it only matters if the white sox ex prospects lose value. Got it. That's the perfect rebuttal to criticism that it doesn't matter if sox sold high on prospect if they made the wrong decision. Um what? I was just referring to those 3 guys having their value take a hit and not being able to trade them for a guy of Frazier's caliber pre-2016. I was saying Dick Allen was accurate in saying this. I'm not even saying it was the wrong decision to sell high on them lol they did sell high on them and a lot of people were/are happy they made the deal. It has nothing to do with them being ex-Sox prospects lol Edited November 1, 2016 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Oct 31, 2016 -> 10:31 PM) They were playing to win. 3B sucked in 2015 and we traded fringe players for an all-star who hits 30+ bombs and plays pretty good defense. Were you against the trade from the beginning? Tons of people loved this trade and thought it improved our team quite a bit since we needed power. Plus the 1st time facing AL pitching. Sox had no luck filling 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2016 -> 08:38 AM) The Frazier deal defines the big picture plan for the White Sox. They constantly believe they are one-two big name players away from competing for the wild card, and that failing to compete for the wild card every year is a mistake, so they should sell out whatever they can to get a big name player at a position of weakness. Put everything on the line and put as many big names on your big league squad as possible regardless of what it does to your organization. That's the Samardzija deal, that's the Frazier deal, that's the free agent signings of the last couple years, that sums up this team going as far back as bringing in Dunn and Rios, with the notable exception of 2014. Someone needs to tell Hahn that "Big name" doesn't equate to "big production" (if he used any sort of statistical analysis, he could find that out for himself beforehand). Hahn's "little name" acquisition, Eaton, has out performed each of his "big names"...and yet Hahn is disinterested in making Eaton-type trades, despite the fact that he outperformed the names at a much lower cost. Edited November 2, 2016 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.