Price rising for Sale and Q

[GreenSox]

They were playing to win. 3B sucked in 2015 and we traded fringe players for an all-star who hits 30+ bombs and plays pretty good defense. Were you against the trade from the beginning? Tons of people loved this trade and thought it improved our team quite a bit since we needed power.

Yes I was against the trade from the beginning; he had an awful 2nd half of 2015 and it was 2 years of control and we traded a young player at a position for which we had zero in the way of replacement. I didn't see the players we traded as fringe and still don't.

But I'm not going to like any of this type of trades in the current condition of this org. The Sox aren't close to a playoff team (imo), so now is not the time to acquire these veterans.

[soxforlife05]

Yes I was against the trade from the beginning; he had an awful 2nd half of 2015 and it was 2 years of control and we traded a young player at a position for which we had zero in the way of replacement. I didn't see the players we traded as fringe and still don't.

But I'm not going to like any of this type of trades in the current condition of this org. The Sox aren't close to a playoff team (imo), so now is not the time to acquire these veterans.

 

A lot of people expected one of Gordon, Upton, or Cespedes to be signed which at the time seemed like enough to make the sox a playoff team. Which is why you see criticism of the Frazier move now because the front office turned it into a half measure by not making the necessary FA signings in succession.

Edited November 2, 2016 by soxforlife05

[caulfield12]

If the White Sox didn't have the necessary budget leeway to add another $5-10 million (the cost of finishing with either Fowler or Desmond), then they shouldn't have bothered to sign Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, trade for Frazier, etc.

 

The margin of error was just way too thin, and it proved itself to be prophetic when Rollins and Latos struggled, Avila/Navarro struggled/got hurt and finally the Austin Jackson injury.

 

Of course, the most mystifying part of last season was adding a lot more money onto the payroll for James Shields (when they were still in contention), money that they apparently didn't feel justified spending before the season began, even though it amount to much less than they eventually allocated to Shields.

 

You can't defend the White Sox front office for falling short on adding an impact bat because they "ran out of money/budget/resources," because EVERYONE AT SOXTALK saw that situation coming from a MILE away. In fact, while many were not confident about a Cespedes deal, Gordon was a very real possibility, along with Desmond and possibly Fowler. Obviously, Gordon got hurt, but his asking price came down $18-28 million from the original expected/asking price at the beginning of the off-season. Looking at Jackson's last 2-3 seasons and his enigmatic performance, it was about as realistic for him to return to a 3 WAR player as it was for Lawrie. Of course, they could have traded for Jean Segura, for example, but 28 other teams missed out on that lower-hanging fruit (Trumbo as well).

[jenksycat]

If the White Sox didn't have the necessary budget leeway to add another $5-10 million (the cost of finishing with either Fowler or Desmond), then they shouldn't have bothered to sign Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, trade for Frazier, etc.

 

The margin of error was just way too thin, and it proved itself to be prophetic when Rollins and Latos struggled, Avila/Navarro struggled/got hurt and finally the Austin Jackson injury.

 

Of course, the most mystifying part of last season was adding a lot more money onto the payroll for James Shields (when they were still in contention), money that they apparently didn't feel justified spending before the season began, even though it amount to much less than they eventually allocated to Shields.

 

You can't defend the White Sox front office for falling short on adding an impact bat because they "ran out of money/budget/resources," because EVERYONE AT SOXTALK saw that situation coming from a MILE away. In fact, while many were not confident about a Cespedes deal, Gordon was a very real possibility, along with Desmond and possibly Fowler. Obviously, Gordon got hurt, but his asking price came down $18-28 million from the original expected/asking price at the beginning of the off-season. Looking at Jackson's last 2-3 seasons and his enigmatic performance, it was about as realistic for him to return to a 3 WAR player as it was for Lawrie. Of course, they could have traded for Jean Segura, for example, but 28 other teams missed out on that lower-hanging fruit (Trumbo as well).

 

Where are your sources for ANY of that? Those are all assumptions and could be made in the other direction just as easily: Desmond only wanted a 1 year deal to rebuild value and hit the market again (we weren't giving up a draft pick for a 1 year deal)...Fowler had a bigger deal lined up with the O's and turned it down either to be with the Cubs or for the same reason as Desmond. Gordon used us for leverage with KC and didn't want to leave. Cespedes same as all of the above.

 

I despise the front office of this franchise, but stating all of the above as fact just doesn't work.

[caulfield12]

Yes, but had we signed Desmond or Fowler, we would have gotten that compensation back when they declined qualifying offers...so paying either of two guys who put up 3 WAR seasons under $10 million AND getting draft pick comp wouldn't have been a bad deal at all.

 

We signed lots of veterans this year to one year deals like Latos, Rollins, Morneau, Navarro, Avila, etc., so one more wouldn't have "ruined" the hypothetical long-term plan.

 

 

 

[jenksycat]

Yes, but had we signed Desmond or Fowler, we would have gotten that compensation back when they declined qualifying offers...so paying either of two guys who put up 3 WAR seasons under $10 million AND getting draft pick comp wouldn't have been a bad deal at all.

 

We signed lots of veterans this year to one year deals like Latos, Rollins, Morneau, Navarro, Avila, etc., so one more wouldn't have "ruined" the hypothetical long-term plan.

 

Again, still don't know that. What if Desmond tanks and isn't even worth a QO? What if Fowler was only long-term big money deal or 1 year Cubs? We don't know any of this, its all guessing.

[Bob Sacamano]

Again, still don't know that. What if Desmond tanks and isn't even worth a QO? What if Fowler was only long-term big money deal or 1 year Cubs? We don't know any of this, its all guessing.

 

True. I feel like players that take one year deals take it from their former team if there is interest by said team. That's kind of why I feel Nats will re-sign Ramos and let him rehab for a few months with a team he is familiar with.

Edited November 2, 2016 by soxfan2014

[Hatchetman]

If the White Sox didn't have the necessary budget leeway to add another $5-10 million (the cost of finishing with either Fowler or Desmond), then they shouldn't have bothered to sign Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, trade for Frazier, etc.

 

The margin of error was just way too thin, and it proved itself to be prophetic when Rollins and Latos struggled, Avila/Navarro struggled/got hurt and finally the Austin Jackson injury.

 

Of course, the most mystifying part of last season was adding a lot more money onto the payroll for James Shields (when they were still in contention), money that they apparently didn't feel justified spending before the season began, even though it amount to much less than they eventually allocated to Shields.

 

You can't defend the White Sox front office for falling short on adding an impact bat because they "ran out of money/budget/resources," because EVERYONE AT SOXTALK saw that situation coming from a MILE away. In fact, while many were not confident about a Cespedes deal, Gordon was a very real possibility, along with Desmond and possibly Fowler. Obviously, Gordon got hurt, but his asking price came down $18-28 million from the original expected/asking price at the beginning of the off-season. Looking at Jackson's last 2-3 seasons and his enigmatic performance, it was about as realistic for him to return to a 3 WAR player as it was for Lawrie. Of course, they could have traded for Jean Segura, for example, but 28 other teams missed out on that lower-hanging fruit (Trumbo as well).

 

 

This is exactly right. They started the job but didn't finish. You don't start renovating your kitchen and then stop halfway when it costs more than you thought it would.

[Balta1701]

If the White Sox didn't have the necessary budget leeway to add another $5-10 million (the cost of finishing with either Fowler or Desmond), then they shouldn't have bothered to sign Robertson, Cabrera, LaRoche, trade for Frazier, etc.

 

The margin of error was just way too thin, and it proved itself to be prophetic when Rollins and Latos struggled, Avila/Navarro struggled/got hurt and finally the Austin Jackson injury.

 

Of course, the most mystifying part of last season was adding a lot more money onto the payroll for James Shields (when they were still in contention), money that they apparently didn't feel justified spending before the season began, even though it amount to much less than they eventually allocated to Shields.

 

You can't defend the White Sox front office for falling short on adding an impact bat because they "ran out of money/budget/resources," because EVERYONE AT SOXTALK saw that situation coming from a MILE away. In fact, while many were not confident about a Cespedes deal, Gordon was a very real possibility, along with Desmond and possibly Fowler. Obviously, Gordon got hurt, but his asking price came down $18-28 million from the original expected/asking price at the beginning of the off-season. Looking at Jackson's last 2-3 seasons and his enigmatic performance, it was about as realistic for him to return to a 3 WAR player as it was for Lawrie. Of course, they could have traded for Jean Segura, for example, but 28 other teams missed out on that lower-hanging fruit (Trumbo as well).

So let's see, how many problems can I come up with this?

 

1. Adding either Gordon or Cespedes, on their own, doesn't make this even a wild card team.

 

2. My experience in the spring was not that "Everyone saw it coming a mile away". I'd say it was the reverse, most people were content with the moves made and although they wanted Cespedes, thought the team had done a good enough job. Somewhere out there, there's an article about how the Avila/Navarro pairing would be a huge upgrade from the Flowers year beforehand.

 

3. It is totally unsurprising that they grabbed Shields. Add in a sprinkle of desparation with the fact that they suddenly had $13 million freed up after an unnameable person retired during spring training and there you go.

 

4. An extra $5-10 million does not make this a championship contending team. They aren't that close. If they'd landed Upton, Gordon, or Cespedes, this team would still have been an afterthought in the wild card race. The game you're playing, the game you have to play to make this work, is to look after the fact and see that Desmond and Fowler wound up solid bargains while Upton and the others wound up overpaid and say "oh if only we'd grabbed the guys who were bargains".

 

You can get lucky like that sometimes, but not with every signing. The Cubs got really lucky signing Fowler for another year. The price? They also signed Heyward.

[Eminor3rd]

I wrote the article about the Avila/Navarro pairing. I still stand by the fact that it looked good on paper. It always had risk; everything does. I am also liberally on record as being confused and frustrated that they didn't do enough heading into the season. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

[Bob Sacamano]

At least Danks (~15 mill) and Laroche (13 mill) are off the books! (I lnow LaRoche wasn't on at all during the season, but he was all off-season. Even with Shields at 9 mill, they should have money to spend.

[BigHurt3515]

I wrote the article about the Avila/Navarro pairing. I still stand by the fact that it looked good on paper. It always had risk; everything does. I am also liberally on record as being confused and frustrated that they didn't do enough heading into the season. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

A lot of the moves looked good on paper from the last 2 off-seasons.

[Balta1701]

A lot of the moves looked good on paper from the last 2 off-seasons.

And the right response to thinking that continues to be - reevaluate how you came to that decision. If you think something looks good on paper and it proves incorrect, double check your thinking process so as to avoid repeating the same result.

[southsider2k5]

And the right response to thinking that continues to be - reevaluate how you came to that decision. If you think something looks good on paper and it proves incorrect, double check your thinking process so as to avoid repeating the same result.

 

He is the thing that bothers me about that. This team has also largely historically struggled to develop prospects into major leaguers.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

He is the thing that bothers me about that. This team has also largely historically struggled to develop prospects into major leaguers.

 

Hopefully that's changing. We've had some guys come up and have success albeit with us and other teams (Semien, Thompson, Anderson, Sanchez). We develop pitching and rehab pitchers fairly well. I think with a full rebuild and continue to add talent to the system, we will be good in 3-4 seasons. Maybe even 2 years in a perfect world. This draft class was productive this season. Keep adding and stock piling talent and we're in business man.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

MLBTradeRumors suggested that the Angels may be in on Sale. I'm finding it hard to figure out a trade match with them, considering their farm system is historically bad.

 

I suppose you would immediately start with RF Kole Calhoun and a prospect package of 1B Matt Thiass, OF Jahmai Jones, C Taylor Ward, and LHP Nate Smith, although none of those are even top 100 prospects, but happen to be 4 of the top 5 that the Angels have.

 

Just doesn't seem like a fit.

[soxforlife05]

MLBTradeRumors suggested that the Angels may be in on Sale. I'm finding it hard to figure out a trade match with them, considering their farm system is historically bad.

 

I suppose you would immediately start with RF Kole Calhoun and a prospect package of 1B Matt Thiass, OF Jahmai Jones, C Taylor Ward, and LHP Nate Smith, although none of those are even top 100 prospects, but happen to be 4 of the top 5 that the Angels have.

 

Just doesn't seem like a fit.

 

Sale and Rodon for Mike Trout

[Bob Sacamano]

MLBTradeRumors suggested that the Angels may be in on Sale. I'm finding it hard to figure out a trade match with them, considering their farm system is historically bad.

 

I suppose you would immediately start with RF Kole Calhoun and a prospect package of 1B Matt Thiass, OF Jahmai Jones, C Taylor Ward, and LHP Nate Smith, although none of those are even top 100 prospects, but happen to be 4 of the top 5 that the Angels have.

 

Just doesn't seem like a fit.

 

They can be interested all they want, but no way they are getting him.

[Middle Buffalo]

The Sox havent been able to evaluate or develop positional players. I'm not sure why we'd want to trade established front line pitching for a bunch of prospects and unproven players from another team and trust our minor league development team to make them major league players.

 

 

[gatnom]

The Sox havent been able to evaluate or develop positional players. I'm not sure why we'd want to trade established front line pitching for a bunch of prospects and unproven players from another team and trust our minor league development team to make them major league players.

 

If the Sox are completely unable to develop position players, they're pretty screwed either way.

 

 

[Jerksticks]

Sale and Rodon for Mike Trout

Where do I sign?

[southsider2k5]

Sale and Rodon for Mike Trout

 

With Sale's contract vs Trout, that is a severe overpay by the Sox.

[hi8is]

Sale and Rodon for Mike Trout

Sale for Trout + $.

 

Gives the angles the ace and starting pitcher they need with enough offset financially for them to still throw in money to us and sign a FA OF bat. They'd have an overall increase in WAR.

 

We'd get the best possible solution known to man for our OF and line up, with some cash thrown in to help us sign a FA SP or pick one up in another trade which requires more salary.

 

One can dream.

Edited November 6, 2016 by hi8is

[soxforlife05]

Sale for Trout + $.

 

Gives the angles the ace and starting pitcher they need with enough offset financially for them to still throw in money to us and sign a FA OF bat. They'd have an overall increase in WAR.

 

We'd get the best possible solution known to man for our OF and line up, with some cash thrown in to help us sign a FA SP or pick one up in another trade which requires more salary.

 

One can dream.

 

I think a Trout for elite pitching swap makes a lot of sense for both teams. Not sure if they would have reservations about dealing a fan favorite. If we could add an Encarnacion or Cespedes and a catcher in a trade for Lawrie we could start Saladino at 2B, LF/DH Melky and have all the lineup holes covered. That would be a top 2-3 offense on paper playing in the USCF bandbox for half the season.

Edited November 6, 2016 by soxforlife05

[Lip Man 1]

I think a Trout for elite pitching swap makes a lot of sense for both teams. Not sure if they would have reservations about dealing a fan favorite. If we could add an Encarnacion or Cespedes and a catcher in a trade for Lawrie we could start Saladino at 2B, LF/DH Melky and have all the lineup holes covered. That would be a top 2-3 offense on paper playing in the USCF bandbox for half the season.

 

Except one of the last things Robin did was announced that Saladino has a herniated disc in his lower back that did not respond as well as they hoped to treatment.

 

Right now having no additional info I don't even know if he can play in 2017.

 

Mark