Fire Sale or ANARCHY

[Carpe Diem]

I don't fault management for giving it a run with this core, but after 2+ years I've seen enough to know this team is 4-5 impact players away from even contending for the division.

 

 

I'm going to sound repetitive, but this issue I'm about to bring up CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH. The franchise's future is at stake.

 

 

The White Sox have a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best farm systems EVER ASSEMBLED if they blow this thing up leaving only Carlos Rodon and Tim Anderson in its wake.

 

I'm talking potentially having anywhere from 16-20 of the top 100 prospects in all of baseball if you factor in Fulmer Collins, Burdi, Hansen. That is unprecedented a team can make over their entire farm system/trajectory of their franchise in one house cleaning session.

 

 

If the White Sox trick themselves into thinking Chris Sale will somehow magically learn to control his emotions and not get hit hard bu the AL central I'm going to REVOLT in a way that will resemble Braveheart. Obama or Mark Cuban for owner signs will be EVERYWHERE.

 

 

Stay tuned.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Carpe Diem

[hi8is]

I wonder which side of the fence I am on...

[Kyyle23]

post a topic or POST A TOPIC

[Jose Abreu]

I don't think Sale should be fired. He has done a fine job. We should either keep him or trade him.

[GreenSox]

I don't fault management for giving it a run with this core, but after 2+ years I've seen enough to know this team is 4-5 impact players away from even contending for the division.

 

 

I'm going to sound repetitive, but this issue I'm about to bring up CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH. The franchise's future is at stake.

 

 

The White Sox have a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best farm systems EVER ASSEMBLED if they blow this thing up leaving only Carlos Rodon and Tim Anderson in its wake.

 

I'm talking potentially having anywhere from 16-20 of the top 100 prospects in all of baseball if you factor in Fulmer Collins, Burdi, Hansen. That is unprecedented a team can make over their entire farm system/trajectory of their franchise in one house cleaning session.

 

 

If the White Sox trick themselves into thinking Chris Sale will somehow magically learn to control his emotions and not get hit hard bu the AL central I'm going to REVOLT in a way that will resemble Braveheart. Obama or Mark Cuban for owner signs will be EVERYWHERE.

 

 

Stay tuned.

You make a strong case, Carpe.

But I doubt it happens...I think they will trade Sale, but at least 1/2 his value will come from "Proven veterans". Watch for McCutchen, the type of player Williams and Hahn drool over

 

[southsider2k5]

Anyone expecting this to be burned the ground is wasting their own time and energy.

[CyAcosta41]

You make a strong case, Carpe.

But I doubt it happens...I think they will trade Sale, but at least 1/2 his value will come from "Proven veterans". Watch for McCutchen, the type of player Williams and Hahn drool over

 

Bingo.

 

It's rare when you hear the so-called experts mention the Pirates as a potential landing spot in a hypothetical Sales trade. The conventional thinking is that they don't spend the money for stars.

 

That's exactly why I've thought the Pirates were likely Sales buyers (that's a mouthful) from Day 1. Sale is a tippy-top performing talent at a far below market rate for years to come. Teams like the Red Sox, Yankmes, Dodgers, and Rangers can afford to pay free agent prices for top pitchers (even though no such pitcher exists -- kind of a stretch to call resurrected Rich Hill a truly top pitcher). And those teams CAN trade for top pitchers who are being paid as top pitchers. The Pirates can do none of those things. Consequently, Sales is of far more value to them than to the wealthy franchises. That should lead to the Pirates being willing, theoretically, to paying more because they don't have the Plan B that those other franchises do.

 

Factor in a very solid farm system and a down year from McCutchen, I can see a McCutchen plus prospects deal going down. The Sox do love their plus 30 one time superstars (I'd personally have a bit more confidence in McCutchen rebounding than most). That said, Sales is a lot more valuable generally and to the Sox (contract status included -- McCutchen is signed through '17 with a team $14M+ option for '18), so McCutchen plus some top prospects would be required.

 

If I had confidence in the Sox talent evaluators, and I don't, separate trades of Sales, Q, Eaton, and Abreu could land youth and prospects aplenty. I don't see the Sox going that way, because of (a) their organizational DNA, and (b) they sure know at some level that talent evaluation is not their strong suit.

[Lip Man 1]

I don't fault management for giving it a run with this core, but after 2+ years I've seen enough to know this team is 4-5 impact players away from even contending for the division.

 

 

I'm going to sound repetitive, but this issue I'm about to bring up CANNOT BE STRESSED ENOUGH. The franchise's future is at stake.

 

 

The White Sox have a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best farm systems EVER ASSEMBLED if they blow this thing up leaving only Carlos Rodon and Tim Anderson in its wake.

 

I'm talking potentially having anywhere from 16-20 of the top 100 prospects in all of baseball if you factor in Fulmer Collins, Burdi, Hansen. That is unprecedented a team can make over their entire farm system/trajectory of their franchise in one house cleaning session.

 

 

If the White Sox trick themselves into thinking Chris Sale will somehow magically learn to control his emotions and not get hit hard bu the AL central I'm going to REVOLT in a way that will resemble Braveheart. Obama or Mark Cuban for owner signs will be EVERYWHERE.

 

 

Stay tuned.

 

Just playing "Devil's Advocate" here but do you trust the same people who put the franchise in this position in the first place to get them out of it?

 

Mark

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I mean if you are going to completely blow it up with aspirations of obtaining the strongest minor league system in baseball, why not trade Rodon and Anderson too? Combined with signing a bunch of low priced FA vets, that would guarantee top 3 draft picks for the next 3-4 years with the possibility of one or more number 1 picks over this same timeframe.

[elrockinMT]

The sky is falling stuff is getting old. This organization has been around for over a hundred years. Its future is not at risk. The Sox have tried to improve the team and compete every year. True it has not been real pretty the last four or so, but it's not from lack of effort in my opinion. Depending on how you measure success there are 28 other clubs that can be considered failures if the prize is the World Series. I am interested in the moves we make this off season and will not buy into gloom and doom

[Lip Man 1]

The sky is falling stuff is getting old. This organization has been around for over a hundred years. Its future is not at risk. The Sox have tried to improve the team and compete every year. True it has not been real pretty the last four or so, but it's not from lack of effort in my opinion. Depending on how you measure success there are 28 other clubs that can be considered failures if the prize is the World Series. I am interested in the moves we make this off season and will not buy into gloom and doom

 

I don't think anyone is faulting the "effort". The people in charge care but this is also a results business and that is shown by the won / loss record.

 

To say that hasn't been good for basically the last 10 years would be an understatement.

 

Mark

 

[chetkincaid]

I mean if you are going to completely blow it up with aspirations of obtaining the strongest minor league system in baseball, why not trade Rodon and Anderson too? Combined with signing a bunch of low priced FA vets, that would guarantee top 3 draft picks for the next 3-4 years with the possibility of one or more number 1 picks over this same timeframe.

 

 

You might be joking, but this is what I would do. I'd nuke the entire 25 man roster. No one would be spared. And you know what? If the Sox did that and acquired some exciting young talent, I'd go to a lot more ball games to watch them mature - even if they lost 100+ games for 2-3 years.

 

I'm sick and tired of the same old stuff. I went to a game a in September and it was the loneliest time I'd ever spent around a few thousand people. There was no energy, no excitement, no buzz, nothing to look forward to.

 

Nuke this entire squad. Bring in some fresh new young talent and let's watch them grow into major leaguers.

[GreatScott82]

I don't think anyone is faulting the "effort". The people in charge care but this is also a results business and that is shown by the won / loss record.

 

To say that hasn't been good for basically the last 10 years would be an understatement.

 

Mark

Yep. Enough is enough and its time for a change. And since JR is too old and weak-willed to make the necessary upper management changes, our only hope is that they somehow can change themselves. It would be nice to see them take the rebuilding approach for once. Its time to sell high on assets (Abreu, Sale, Q, Melky, Frazier etc..) Take advantage of the thin FA market and totally revamp this roster. Set the target year for 2019 or 2020 and let the newly acquired talent develop.

[greg775]

The sky is falling stuff is getting old. This organization has been around for over a hundred years. Its future is not at risk. The Sox have tried to improve the team and compete every year. True it has not been real pretty the last four or so, but it's not from lack of effort in my opinion. Depending on how you measure success there are 28 other clubs that can be considered failures if the prize is the World Series. I am interested in the moves we make this off season and will not buy into gloom and doom

Good post, but we have acquired some very bad players the past several seasons. Very bad.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You might be joking, but this is what I would do. I'd nuke the entire 25 man roster. No one would be spared. And you know what? If the Sox did that and acquired some exciting young talent, I'd go to a lot more ball games to watch them mature - even if they lost 100+ games for 2-3 years.

 

I'm sick and tired of the same old stuff. I went to a game a in September and it was the loneliest time I'd ever spent around a few thousand people. There was no energy, no excitement, no buzz, nothing to look forward to.

 

Nuke this entire squad. Bring in some fresh new young talent and let's watch them grow into major leaguers.

I was serious. I see no point in trading Sale and keeping the rest intact. That includes guys like Anderson and Rodon, who combined should net a similar package to Sale. If the time horizon for competing is 3-5 years out, no sense in holding on to those two guys either.

 

Having said that, I don't think this roster is as far away from competing as most others on here and I'd be looking to add rather than subtract this offseason. That of course requires JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider.

[BigSqwert]

As others have mentioned on this board, it seems like we're not very different than SF and LA and they both made it to the postseason. 2 or 3 stud starting pitchers, a very good closer, 3 to 4 great bats and you should be in the mix.

 

Problem is, I don't trust this front office to add the 3 or 4 pieces to get us over the hump but I also don't trust them to blow it up and start from scratch. Seems like a lose-lose situation as long as Reinsdorf owns this team.

[elrockinMT]

Good post, but we have acquired some very bad players the past several seasons. Very bad.

 

 

The results we received from some players weren't something that could have been expected. Dunn was an absolute bust his first year here. Real bad is not even the right label to put on his season. But, he did turn it around power wise which is why we got him. Plus folks calling Reinsdorf names and a failure etc better understand that the man OWNS the Sox. Heck, we could be perennial cellar dwellers and he would still be the owner. There is no benefit to be calling for his replacement. If he sells that is his call to make not a bunch of rabid posters on this site. I don't like where we have finished anymore than the next guy but I do admire Jerry's loyalty to his people

[Lip Man 1]

The results we received from some players weren't something that could have been expected. Dunn was an absolute bust his first year here. Real bad is not even the right label to put on his season. But, he did turn it around power wise which is why we got him. Plus folks calling Reinsdorf names and a failure etc better understand that the man OWNS the Sox. Heck, we could be perennial cellar dwellers and he would still be the owner. There is no benefit to be calling for his replacement. If he sells that is his call to make not a bunch of rabid posters on this site. I don't like where we have finished anymore than the next guy but I do admire Jerry's loyalty to his people

 

Loyalty without accountability be it to a sports team, an individual, a religion, a government is a dangerous thing in my opinion.

 

Mark

[Carpe Diem]

The results we received from some players weren't something that could have been expected. Dunn was an absolute bust his first year here. Real bad is not even the right label to put on his season. But, he did turn it around power wise which is why we got him. Plus folks calling Reinsdorf names and a failure etc better understand that the man OWNS the Sox. Heck, we could be perennial cellar dwellers and he would still be the owner. There is no benefit to be calling for his replacement. If he sells that is his call to make not a bunch of rabid posters on this site. I don't like where we have finished anymore than the next guy but I do admire Jerry's loyalty to his people

 

This is some of the biggest fuzz I have ever read/heard.

 

Professional sports teams are PUBLIC TRUSTS. If they want us to give a s*** about them, they owe us not only competence, but trust that winning championships is the only goal. Without fan support they have nothing.

 

For FAR too long the White Sox fan-base has adopted this mindset that JR isn't the problem. He is more loyal to his employees than he is his fan-base and that is disgraceful.

 

 

 

[dpd9189]

I think my biggest issue with the Sox FO is that I don't trust them in actually having a plan for whatever route they want to go. It just seems like decisions are made on the fly without any planning involved of not only the present but the future too. The James Shields move is a perfect example of this, that was a panic move at the time and there was a reason that a cashed strapped San Diego team was willing to fork over alot of money to get rid of Shields and the Sox couldn't sniff that out at all.

 

Honestly I hope they rebuild the right way and have a solid plan in place. I've mentioned before that if compare them with the Cubs when Theo took over, the Sox have better assets to move and could actually compete quicker than the Cubs did in the Theo Era which was basically 3 awful seasons followed by 200 wins combined in the next two regular seasons with 2 LCS trips and 1 WS trip. I think the fanbase is ready for a rebuild and would actually get behind it.

 

All that being said it's still for me to process that JR and KW would say yes to that. I can see them seeing a team like Cleveland and saying that could be us next year with a few moves and trying to go for it again. The problem is if they fail again then it's basically like chasing your losses when you're playing Blackjack, eventually the chickens will come home to roost and the organization will fall into a deeper hole that will take years to get out of. Also it probably doesn't help that the Cubs are in the WS as everyone knows that JR and KW hate the Cubs so it's hard to see them say "yeah we'll rebuild while the Cubs are a powerhouse".

[Lip Man 1]

This is some of the biggest fuzz I have ever read/heard.

 

Professional sports teams are PUBLIC TRUSTS. If they want us to give a s*** about them, they owe us not only competence, but trust that winning championships is the only goal. Without fan support they have nothing.

 

For FAR too long the White Sox fan-base has adopted this mindset that JR isn't the problem. He is more loyal to his employees than he is his fan-base and that is disgraceful.

 

If nothing else the fact that the city and state built them a stadium without the franchise having to spend any money PLUS one of the best lease deals in MLB suggests to me there is some obligation on the franchise's part towards the fan base.

 

It would be different if like in Miami or San Francisco stadiums were built for football and baseball completely by that teams ownership.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Also it probably doesn't help that the Cubs are in the WS as everyone knows that JR and KW hate the Cubs so it's hard to see them say "yeah we'll rebuild while the Cubs are a powerhouse".

 

Story today in the newspapers quoting JR directly as saying he hopes the Cubs win it, that it will be good for Chicago. He also said Sox fans probably consider him a "traitor" (direct quote) but that's the way he feels.

 

Mark