The Decline of White Sox Fan Culture

[bmags]

I think the demographic switches of population bleeding out of the southside and repopulation of the northside plays a big part. The michigan expats are casual cub fans, but certainly not sox fans after being tiger fans as kids.

 

The sox seemed to have a pretty good base in the western suburbs but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Sox would do well to encourage the repopulation of south loop to push down.

 

BUt I apologize, didn't mean to add another "where did sox fans go?" thread. Was talking about the specific death of sox fan culture which now just seems to be angst. And I proved it!

[captain54]

Realistically, less than half of that 116 years is even relevant anymore. If you want to make an honest assessment of the situation, you probably narrow your search and should consider the people who are actually alive today. The actual circumstances are for the vast majority of the people who are alive today and going to games who are fans of either team, Chicago has always been a Cubs town, even if the Sox managed to outdraw them on a rare occasion in the past few decades.

 

Chicago is a Cubs town, and pretty solidly has been since the 1950's and early 1960's. That is three generations now.

 

I'm fascinated by your posts, frankly... how somehow could have no idea what they are talking about, yet continue to hammer away, as if they are the definitive authority

 

Here's a little friendly advice...If you're not sure about certain periods of Sox history, my suggestion would be .. ask someone who actually knows..

 

the White Sox had a great run from 1951-1967. consecutive streak of winning seasons.. The Cubs were an afterthought in this town behind the Bears, Blackhawks and White Sox.. the Cubs didn't achieve any sort of notoriety whatsoever until Durocher and the gang in and around the crazy 1969 season..

 

Also fascinating is how you've arbitrarily picked less than half of the 116 years as relevant to how we currently view the state of the Sox vs Cubs, attendance. etc...

 

If you want to make an honest assessment of the situation, you probably narrow your search and should consider the people who are actually alive today. The actual circumstances are for the vast majority of the people who are alive today and going to games who are fans of either team

Pure BS... Your narrow viewpoint of the world tells you that no one that followed the Sox before 1975 is alive today..

 

I could go on and on.. I'm on a mission of mercy here.. just stop.. please.. just stop....

Edited October 27, 2016 by captain54

[southsider2k5]

I'm fascinated by your posts, frankly... how somehow could have no idea what they are talking about, yet continue to hammer away, as if they are the definitive authority

 

Here's a little friendly advice...If you're not sure about certain periods of Sox history, my suggestion would be .. ask someone who actually knows..

 

the White Sox had a great run from 1951-1967. consecutive streak of winning seasons.. The Cubs were an afterthought in this town behind the Bears, Blackhawks and White Sox.. the Cubs didn't achieve any sort of notoriety whatsoever until Durocher and the gang in and around the crazy 1969 season..

 

Also fascinating is how you've arbitrarily picked less than half of the 116 years as relevant to how we currently view the state of the Sox vs Cubs, attendance. etc...

If you want to make an honest assessment of the situation, you probably narrow your search and should consider the people who are actually alive today. The actual circumstances are for the vast majority of the people who are alive today and going to games who are fans of either team,

 

Pure BS... Your narrow viewpoint of the world tells you that no one that followed the Sox before 1975 is alive today..

 

I could go on and on.. I'm on a mission of mercy here.. just stop.. please.. just stop....

 

Apparently you ignored it, but I explained it pretty clearly. 9 of the last 50 years. We are talking about 3 full generations of Sox fans who haven't seen the Sox as the #1 team in this town. The vast majority (I noticed even when you quoted my exact words, you STILL got them wrong in translation, I didn't say NO ONE, I said the VAST MAJORITY) of people are going to fall into those three generations who fall into the camp that remember this as a White Sox town. You would have to be in your 60's to remember the time in the late 50's and early 60's. To add to the point, approximately 10% of Chicago is age 65 or older. I am very comfortable with using the statement "vast majority" to cover something that applies to 90% of the current population.

 

Yes, I "arbitrarily" pick the time that people were alive to judge what they would remember. To me that is common sense. Apparently it isn't as "common" as I thought. In a discussion about what people in Chicago have seen, I would think that when they were actually alive would be the most applicable, no?

 

This isn't complex. Apparently you remember the 50's Great. 90% of people alive today, don't. When it comes to a "narrow viewpoint of the world", that would be your own. Mine is covering 90% of people.

 

Do me a favor, and if you are going to be a on a "mission of mercy" at least have the facts on your side.

[Hatchetman]

It has been a Cubs town since 1984. 32 years which is hard to believe how fast time goes by. 32 years is a long long time. However, this was not a Cubs town in the 1970s. no way.

 

You don't need to embellish the truth to make your broader point.

[COACH612]

Guys,

I really do not care what anyone says. This town has been a Cubs town for many years. Who really cares going back to the 50s , 60, or even 70's. It's now a Cubs town. When you go into a store, what team's stuff is on full display? Is it the Sox? Hell, no. They may get 1 rack. Go into Dicks and they have racks of Cubs stuff. Same with any retailer.

 

Now all those sox fans (I am one of them) who state the city is split is dillusional.

[southsider2k5]

It has been a Cubs town since 1984. 32 years which is hard to believe how fast time goes by. 32 years is a long long time. However, this was not a Cubs town in the 1970s. no way.

 

You don't need to embellish the truth to make your broader point.

 

 

Nothing in there is embellished.

[iamshack]

Guys,

I really do not care what anyone says. This town has been a Cubs town for many years. Who really cares going back to the 50s , 60, or even 70's. It's now a Cubs town. When you go into a store, what team's stuff is on full display? Is it the Sox? Hell, no. They may get 1 rack. Go into Dicks and they have racks of Cubs stuff. Same with any retailer.

 

Now all those sox fans (I am one of them) who state the city is split is dillusional.

If you don't care what anyone says, it seems odd that you would share your thoughts with others and then respond to what they say.

[Hatchetman]

Chicago is a Cubs town, and pretty solidly has been since the 1950's and early 1960's.

 

This is false. Wallow in your own ignorance if you enjoy it.

[southsider2k5]

This is false. Wallow in your own ignorance if you enjoy it.

 

Continue to ignore the numbers in front of you if you like.

[jenksycat]

This is false. Wallow in your own ignorance if you enjoy it.

 

Whats your point though? That hey maybe 30 years ago it was "close" to even? As of the last couple decades and for pretty much as long as baseball exists Chicago will be a Cubs town. The sox are never going to even it up.

[Hatchetman]

Whats your point though? That hey maybe 30 years ago it was "close" to even? As of the last couple decades and for pretty much as long as baseball exists Chicago will be a Cubs town. The sox are never going to even it up.

 

The point is the truth. Why would someone be intentionally misrepresenting the facts? 100% of the Sox fans who were alive at the time will tell you the truth.

 

It doesn't matter to the current situation, you are correct. This is a Cubs town now and will likely be forever more.

[BigSqwert]

The point is the truth. Why would someone be intentionally misrepresenting the facts? 100% of the Sox fans who were alive at the time will tell you the truth.

 

It doesn't matter to the current situation, you are correct. This is a Cubs town now and will likely be forever more.

It might be time to bury the hatchet, man.

 

Thanks. I do accept tips.

[Dam8610]

Whats your point though? That hey maybe 30 years ago it was "close" to even? As of the last couple decades and for pretty much as long as baseball exists Chicago will be a Cubs town. The sox are never going to even it up.

 

You can't know that for sure. I mean, sure, that's true as long as Reinsdorf is alive, but he's old and once he dies, maybe the current ownership group decides to sell and we get an owner like the one we should've had in the 80s, Eddie DeBartolo, who went on to own the 49ers in the 80s when his bid to own the Sox was shut down by MLB. You may have heard a thing or two about the 49ers of the 80s and 90s, and the catalyst for all of it was a man who really wanted to own the White Sox instead. Imagining how different things would be with that one small change makes me angry at times, this may very well be a Sox town right now had MLB allowed him to buy the team.

 

That said, it all comes down to winning. Even if you buy into the notion that people are predisposed to becoming Cubs fans in Chicago, if the White Sox are wildly successful for a sustained period while the Cubs have just about any 10+ year performance out of their last 50 or so years of history, that will change. The ultimate problem is that JR has, for the most part, not offered a superior alternative, so people just pick who their parents or grandparents picked.

[COACH612]

If you don't care what anyone says, it seems odd that you would share your thoughts with others and then respond to what they say.

It's not that odd. I don't care what you think either. My point is and always be anyone who thinks this is a 2 team baseball town also thinks Hillary is not a crook.

[iamshack]

It's not that odd. I don't care what you think either. My point is and always be anyone who thinks this is a 2 team baseball town also thinks Hillary is not a crook.

Yes, you are obviously an incredibly logical person.

[Thad Bosley]

You can't know that for sure. I mean, sure, that's true as long as Reinsdorf is alive, but he's old and once he dies, maybe the current ownership group decides to sell and we get an owner like the one we should've had in the 80s, Eddie DeBartolo, who went on to own the 49ers in the 80s when his bid to own the Sox was shut down by MLB. You may have heard a thing or two about the 49ers of the 80s and 90s, and the catalyst for all of it was a man who really wanted to own the White Sox instead. Imagining how different things would be with that one small change makes me angry at times, this may very well be a Sox town right now had MLB allowed him to buy the team.

 

That said, it all comes down to winning. Even if you buy into the notion that people are predisposed to becoming Cubs fans in Chicago, if the White Sox are wildly successful for a sustained period while the Cubs have just about any 10+ year performance out of their last 50 or so years of history, that will change. The ultimate problem is that JR has, for the most part, not offered a superior alternative, so people just pick who their parents or grandparents picked.

Outstanding post.

[bmags]

You guys remember Credes Crew.

[Lip Man 1]

History shows that from 1951 through 1967 the Sox outdrew the Cubs in 16 of the 17 seasons.

Chicago was absolutely not a "Cubs town" during that time period.

 

As someone who spent months researching and interview folks (including players) from that time period for my long two part historical piece called "Sox and the Media" I can tell you the Sox also got the lion's share of media coverage during that time period as well.

 

The reasons were pretty simple, the Sox had winning seasons, they were usually contending for a pennant and they had nationally known and recognized star players.

 

The Cubs had Ernie Banks, the "College of Coaches" and losing seasons.

 

It's really not that hard to understand.

 

Mark

Edited October 27, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[captain54]

This isn't complex. Apparently you remember the 50's Great. 90% of people alive today, don't. When it comes to a "narrow viewpoint of the world", that would be your own. Mine is covering 90% of people.

 

Do me a favor, and if you are going to be a on a "mission of mercy" at least have the facts on your side.

 

I presented facts that you conveniently ignored because it didn't quite fit your narrative.. The facts of the Sox record between 1951 and 1967.. Consecutive winning seasons and a run of being the #1 baseball team in Chicago

 

which was in response to your unbelievably inaccurate set of "facts"

 

Chicago is a Cubs town, and pretty solidly has been since the 1950's and early 1960's. That is three generations now.

 

You're like a drowning man that keeps swimming further out to sea...

 

The point of all of this, guy... is that yours and others contention that Chicago is was and always will be a Cubs town is just flat out incorrect... When Sox ownership put together CONSISTENT winning seasons, the Cubs had to fight for relevancy, rather than the other way around.. as it is now...

 

Why would Einhorn and Reinsdorf have purchased the Sox in 1981 if it was a foregone conclusion that this is was and always will be a Cubs Town... ?

 

The fatal flaw in your approach is that is absolves ownership of all accountably and puts the blame squarely on the "historically" disloyal Sox fan...

 

 

[captain54]

Wasn't it around five or six years ago the TV showed all the empty bleacher seats at Wrigley because fans were upset and staying away?

 

And to the main point, it could have happened 100 years ago...doesn't matter...the statement that Chicago has always been a Cubs town is historical wrong.

 

Mark

 

I was given practically free tickets to a game at Wrigley for a family outing in 2014 .. it was a group of 8 and we paid pennies for tix... the sea of green and empty seats around us was vast.. and this was not too far back from the home team dugout..

[southsider2k5]

I presented facts that you conveniently ignored because it didn't quite fit your narrative.. The facts of the Sox record between 1951 and 1967.. Consecutive winning seasons and a run of being the #1 baseball team in Chicago

 

which was in response to your unbelievably inaccurate set of "facts"

 

Chicago is a Cubs town, and pretty solidly has been since the 1950's and early 1960's. That is three generations now.

 

You're like a drowning man that keeps swimming further out to sea...

 

The point of all of this, guy... is that yours and others contention that Chicago is was and always will be a Cubs town is just flat out incorrect... When Sox ownership put together CONSISTENT winning seasons, the Cubs had to fight for relevancy, rather than the other way around.. as it is now...

 

Why would Einhorn and Reinsdorf have purchased the Sox in 1981 if it was a foregone conclusion that this is was and always will be a Cubs Town... ?

 

The fatal flaw in your approach is that is absolves ownership of all accountably and puts the blame squarely on the "historically" disloyal Sox fan...

 

You are honestly just making stuff up now. The only fatal flaw is not being able to get past your biases to actually understand and comprehend what I actually said. Until that point, there really isn't any point to your responding to my posts because you can't even do that accurately. Seeing as I tried to do it three times without your understanding it, there isn't any reason for me to keep wasting my time trying.

[captain54]

The only fatal flaw is not being able to get past your biases to actually understand and comprehend what I actually said.

 

I get it son, you're not that hard to figure out.. you have a pretty clear agenda..

 

We are talking about 3 full generations of Sox fans who haven't seen the Sox as the #1 team in this town.

 

That's what you said.. as clear as day... and to that I say.. SO WHAT?

 

It all comes down to you trying to bolster your argument that the Sox are a small market team in a big city, predisposed to not have the budget and resources to put a consistent winner on the field.. because of their "historical" legacy of being the #2 team behind the Cubs...

 

But as I and others have pointed out, historically. that hasn't been the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I get it son, you're not that hard to figure out.. you have a pretty clear agenda..

 

We are talking about 3 full generations of Sox fans who haven't seen the Sox as the #1 team in this town.

 

That's what you said.. as clear as day... and to that I say.. SO WHAT?

 

It all comes down to you trying to bolster your argument that the Sox are a small market team in a big city, predisposed to not have the budget and resources to put a consistent winner on the field.. because of their "historical" legacy of being the #2 team behind the Cubs...

 

But as I and others have pointed out, historically. that hasn't been the case.

 

Well there you go. You finally acknowledged that you are just ignoring the facts here. At least I got that far. My work here is done.

[Flash Tizzle]

Bmags, I'm around your age and joined this website shortly after you did, so while we've obviously matured since 2003, I'd agree there been a definite decline in White Sox culture. I recall the feeling among Sox fans on WSI and Soxtalk concerning the biased media attention towards the Cubs. Anyone remember Hangar18 on WSI counting articles and posting a daily commentary? There was a shared feeling of disrespect among Sox fans. "What have the Cubs done to deserve it?" Granted, we understood the attendance issue, but there was still the feeling Cub fans were unintelligent frat boys from Iowa while Sox fans were hillbillies who (when they did show up to a game) ran on the field. Even with the success of 2003 for the Cubs, the Bartman game and subsequent collapse in Game 7 actually served to heighten my enjoyment as a Sox fan. This is a key point. Our culture at the time was anti-Cubs as much as it was anything Sox related on the field. You touched on it earlier with the CORK t-shirts many Sox fans wore.

 

Then, 2005 obviously changed everything. White Sox fans were treated to a World Series and were now atop the media landscape in Chicago. The disrespect, I felt, was gone. Who cared anyway how much coverage the Cubs received? Our team won a World Series! What followed is one of the greatest injustices of the post World Series years -- failing to sustain even moderate success. When the Sox disentegrated in 2007, Cubs made the playoffs......then were swept. Next season both teams made the playoffs.....Cubs were swept, Sox lost the series 3-1. If the White Sox had capitalized on the post 2008 playoff drought the Cubs had until 2015, it would have further defined our NEW identity -- winning. We'd have something else to define ourselves as other than the alternative to the Cubs.

 

Flash forward to 2015, and it had been a terrible decade post WS title to say the least. A lot of unmemorable seasons thrown together with scrub players, bad management, and lack of direction. However, what I began to notice is that fans were collectively beginning to push-away the official narrative of the team. Rebuilding on the fly, patching together third tier players around the core wasn't going to work anymore. Yet.....there was still probably half this site feeling 2016 should be the year we "go for it" again. Meanwhile, through trades and the draft the Cubs had assembled a team capable of winning a World Series. Even though they fall short, they have a formidable team expertly constructed. Not a flash in the pan. Here's 2016, Cubs are meeting expectations while the White Sox predictably fall short. Fans however are now past a point of waiting and hoping. It's a overall feeling of negativity I've never witnessed. The rebuild sentiment among the fans, if I could judge from this site, is easily 75%+.

 

What all this means to me is previously, our culture was identified in part anti-cubs, part southside grittiness. We were good but never good enough. We embodied this hard working, meat and potatoes type of blue collared fan base. Proud of our traditions.....yet also happy the Cubs havent won yet. After 2005, our culture of winning emerged. Not just competing. After failing for 10 of 11 years to reach the playoffs, this identity is lost. Our Cub hating identity is there, but lessened due to the fact these Cubs are damn good.

 

We're a fanbase without an identity, a team without direction, in a city obsessed with the Cubs BEFORE 2015. Our culture, if it still exists, is decimated. However, I still have hope that one day we'll begin a new direction and start another chapter in our team's history.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Flash Tizzle

[bmags]

Bmags, I'm around your age and joined this website shortly after you did, so while we've obviously matured since 2003, I'd agree there been a definite decline in White Sox culture. I recall the feeling among Sox fans on WSI and Soxtalk concerning the biased media attention towards the Cubs. Anyone remember Hangar18 on WSI counting articles and posting a daily commentary? There was a shared feeling of disrespect among Sox fans. "What have the Cubs done to deserve it?" Granted, we understood the attendance issue, but there was still the feeling Cub fans were unintelligent frat boys from Iowa while Sox fans were hillbillies who (when they did show up to a game) ran on the field. Even with the success of 2003 for the Cubs, the Bartman game and subsequent collapse in Game 7 actually served to heighten my enjoyment as a Sox fan. This is a key point. Our culture at the time was anti-Cubs as much as it was anything Sox related on the field. You touched on it earlier with the CORK t-shirts many Sox fans wore.

 

Then, 2005 obviously changed everything. White Sox fans were treated to a World Series and were now atop the media landscape in Chicago. The disrespect, I felt, was gone. Who cared anyway how much coverage the Cubs received? Our team won a World Series! What followed is one of the greatest injustices of the post World Series years -- failing to sustain even moderate success. When the Sox disentegrated in 2007, Cubs made the playoffs......then were swept. Next season both teams made the playoffs.....Cubs were swept, Sox lost the series 3-1. If the White Sox had capitalized on the post 2008 playoff drought the Cubs had until 2015, it would have further defined our NEW identity -- winning. We'd have something else to define ourselves as other than the alternative to the Cubs.

 

Flash forward to 2015, and it had been a terrible decade post WS title to say the least. A lot of unmemorable seasons thrown together with scrub players, bad management, and lack of direction. However, what I began to notice is that fans were collectively beginning to push-away the official narrative of the team. Rebuilding on the fly, patching together third tier players around the core wasn't going to work anymore. Yet.....there was still probably half this site feeling 2016 should be the year we "go for it" again. Meanwhile, through trades and the draft the Cubs had assembled a team capable of winning a World Series. Even though they fall short, they have a formidable team expertly constructed. Not a flash in the pan. Here's 2016, Cubs are meeting expectations while the White Sox predictably fall short. Fans however are now past a point of waiting and hoping. It's a overall feeling of negativity I've never witnessed. The rebuild sentiment among the fans, if I could judge from this site, is easily 75%+.

 

What all this means to me is previously, our culture was identified in part anti-cubs, part southside grittiness. We were good but never good enough. We embodied this hard working, meat and potatoes type of blue collared fan base. Proud of our traditions.....yet also happy the Cubs havent won yet. After 2005, our culture of winning emerged. Not just competing. After failing for 10 of 11 years to reach the playoffs, this identity is lost. Our Cub hating identity is there, but lessened due to the fact these Cubs are damn good.

 

We're a fanbase without an identity, a team without direction, in a city obsessed with the Cubs BEFORE 2015. Our culture, if it still exists, is decimated. However, I still have hope that one day we'll begin a new direction and start another chapter in our team's history.

 

This is the best explanation I've seen. I'm totally onboard with it, thanks for taking the time to write it.