Rick Hahn open for business

[Flash Tizzle]

Completely different scouting environment now that statistics, computers, and analysis rule the league.

 

You know what doesn't work? What we're doing right now. We might make the playoffs once in the next decade.

I really wish I can understand the mindset of the anti-rebuild crowd. To put yourself in the position that you wouldn't want a rebuild because it hasn't worked for other teams.......meanwhile accepting what the team has unsuccessfully tried to do since 2008.

[SonofaRoache]

I really wish I can understand the mindset of the anti-rebuild crowd. To put yourself in the position that you wouldn't want a rebuild because it hasn't worked for other teams.......meanwhile accepting what the team has unsuccessfully tried to do since 2008.

 

 

The Sox are not going to go into full rebuild mode because the Cubs are bad for their business. If your competitor is at the top you don't fold and give your customers away for 3 or 4 years and then hope to bounce back with new product. The time for the full rebuild was when Robin choked that first year.

 

Also this team has brought in tons of youth that has failed miserably when we thought they would be good players. So this full rebuild idea getting pimped around like it is fail proof isn't likely to build a consistent winner. These are just a few of the guys off the top of my head that were young and we thought would be cornerstones just a few years ago.

 

Gordan Beckham

Jordan Danks

Jared Mitchell

Tyler Flowers

Dayan Viciedo

Brent Morel

Avi Garcia

Micah Johnson

 

 

Both methods are dangerous routes to take but we do know we got a title winning with vets and some young guys.

 

[captain54]

Well yeah, I think if you're going to tell others why their concept is flawed then telling us a better way seems like a logical next request.

 

Yes, it could blow up in our faces. I don't see that as any worse than where they are right now. A 4th place team is not that much better than a 5th place team and shouldn't be treated as a major accomplishment worth protecting. 8 playoff misses in a row isn't an accomplishment.

 

 

The Sox are not 1 or 2 players away, they are multiple players away. Other teams that are 1 or 2 players away are looking at a thin FA market to address those needs. The Sox are in a unique position to capitalize on a situation that is wholly in their favor by maximizing their assets in a major way

 

A playoff miss with a roster that is learning how to win, is a lot more fun to watch than a playoff miss that has the same stench of the last 8 yrs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmbjeff]

The argument here of course is that the Sox have been awful at identifying, drafting and developing talent, so going the full rebuild route is a bad one. They lucked into a 2005 World Championship by having a mix of younger and veteran players, so that is route they should go.

 

Basically, the Sox don't have the talent evaluators capable of conducting a rebuild, so it would be a waste of time.

 

This organization is in a BAD place.

 

The Sox have been bad at building their own talent, no doubt. However, whether they draft it or whether they obtain it through trade, there is no doubt that they need more talent for the long term. Trading and rebuilding gets that done far more quickly, especially when you have assets to deal to get those deals done. You look back on the 2005 team, sure there were only a few home grown players in Buehrle, Crede and Rowand. They also went out and brought in other teams top prospects with very little MLB experience to be a part of it like Konerko, Garland, Cotts, Uribe. The point is, it doesn't just have to be the White Sox scouts and draft alone to build this back up. It is OK to make moves and help shape the roster to be good in the future and also cheap enough where they aren't hamstrung financially like they are now. They have to run more like the Oakland A's than the Cubs. The front office has to embrace that philosophy and stop with half measures in order to have prolonged success.

[caulfield12]

The Sox have been bad at building their own talent, no doubt. However, whether they draft it or whether they obtain it through trade, there is no doubt that they need more talent for the long term. Trading and rebuilding gets that done far more quickly, especially when you have assets to deal to get those deals done. You look back on the 2005 team, sure there were only a few home grown players in Buehrle, Crede and Rowand. They also went out and brought in other teams top prospects with very little MLB experience to be a part of it like Konerko, Garland, Cotts, Uribe. The point is, it doesn't just have to be the White Sox scouts and draft alone to build this back up. It is OK to make moves and help shape the roster to be good in the future and also cheap enough where they aren't hamstrung financially like they are now. They have to run more like the Oakland A's than the Cubs. The front office has to embrace that philosophy and stop with half measures in order to have prolonged success.

 

The A's will come back for a couple of years until their players aren't affordable, which isn't sustainable either.

 

The Pirates, Royals, Astros, Rays (not recently)....are better models to follow because they at least developed 3-5 year windows.

 

The Indians would be another obvious one.

 

Unfortunately, we're more like Mariners (or Padres)...without their ability to bid on guys like Cruz and especially Cano due to their advantageous tv contract, and they still haven't made the playoffs in a division with one less team.

 

Plus Beane's been able to bring them back from a rebuild to briefly the best team in baseball, something KW and Hahn haven't exactly mastered as of yet.

 

[chetkincaid]

Well the Sox won a world series doing it this way. The reality is they cannot afford a rebuild at this time. They can trade sale for some talent but a full rebuild would destroy their finances as I said before. Fans will not watch or go to the ball park to see 4 years of rebuilding baseball. It just wont happen. And with the Cubs being a great championship team non die hard fans will just watch them instead. If they make some tweaks they can compete for a wild card. With two wild cards most competent teams will be interesting for a season. We blew a lot of games this year we should have won and with 3 top flight starters we will be in a lot of games. And if we could sneak into the playoffs Sale, Q, Rodon would be just as good as what Cleveland trots out there. Odds are low they will win it all but odds are also low of them winning it all after a rebuild.

 

This has been the story for some time now, but I'm not buying it anymore. Now I think fans are even less likely to show up to watch the same boring team stuck in neutral. I know I'd be excited to watch a bunch of young future studs get out there and at least make us feel optimistic about the future.

[Flash Tizzle]

This has been the story for some time now, but I'm not buying it anymore. Now I think fans are even less likely to show up to watch the same boring team stuck in neutral. I know I'd be excited to watch a bunch of young future studs get out there and at least make us feel optimistic about the future.

I'm not buying it either, fans want a rebuild. If we were to receive quality returns for whomever is traded the fanbase would be completely on board. Hahn has Quintana and Sale at his disposal, he should easily accomplish that.

 

And while I cannot put an exact percentage on the number, I know the call for a rebuild has jumped drastically in the last few years among fans. We've grown restless and tired of the same groundhog type season. I just feel there's just such much fear on this board for a rebuild. Like they're afraid to fail. Afraid to see their team do poorly, even if it was under the knowledge a boatload of high end talent (which you'd receive from Sale etc) is in the system.

 

Several of you are so comfortable in this terrible, baseball-relationship with the Sox and their mediocre ways you'd rather be fooled into believing things will get better doing the same damn thing they've always done. Any suggestion of something different is always backed with an excuse: the Cubs, lack of experience with rebuilding, lack of fan support, etc. Try and look at yourselves from an outside perspective. How would most people knowledgeable of baseball view our effort to "go for it" in a weak FA market with few expendable prospects to swap for ML talent? They'd laugh and laugh, then maybe cry when realizing people believe this path should be followed.

 

Everyone opposed to a full rebuild just ask yourself -- why not try something different? What do we honestly have to lose?

Edited November 7, 2016 by Flash Tizzle

[Chicago White Sox]

The 2005 offseason was different because we were able to fill a significant amount of needs through free agency both cheaply and productively. Dye, A.J., Iguchi, El Duque, & Hermanson combined for nearly 10 WAR but only cost a total of $14M. That's $1.4M/WAR which is insane and would be nearly impossible to pull off again, especially in this market. Unfortunately, given where our payroll is at, that's the type offseason we'd need to be competive next year. Does anyone really think that's likely again?

Edited November 7, 2016 by Chicago White Sox

[GreenSox]

They need an actual bat or multiple bats instead of just stockpiling arms. The Sox got smoked by their division last year and lost too many one run games. The Northsiders seem to win with home runs, why can't the Sox try that again? Keep drafting some hitters instead of pitchers, pitchers can be bought later when your team can actually contend. I just hope the Sox deal someone or some players to get some bats so there will actually be some offense and some young players doing something (like Anderson) instead of seeing the same old s***.

The northsiders bought 1 pitcher- Lester. 2 if you count Hammels, who was bought, sold the bought. 3 if you count Chapman who was rented for a high price. If stockpiling pitching is what the Sox have been doing, on the whole, they've done a lousy job of it, with a thin pen and rotation. Now it's looking better in the minors recently, but so is the hitting. The Cubs drafted hitters, but they got 2 top starters from draft and a clever trade where they dumped a proven starter.

Cubs also play superior defense, something not seen on the southside in ages. They hit home runs but aren't loaded with the slugger types that Williams and Hahn like. Top talent is not available very often and (and Frazier/Melky is not top talent).

Edited November 7, 2016 by GreenSox

[SonofaRoache]

The argument here of course is that the Sox have been awful at identifying, drafting and developing talent, so going the full rebuild route is a bad one. They lucked into a 2005 World Championship by having a mix of younger and veteran players, so that is route they should go.

 

Basically, the Sox don't have the talent evaluators capable of conducting a rebuild, so it would be a waste of time.

 

This organization is in a BAD place.

 

 

Well that's a point I've been making. I don't trust our FO moving in any direction. We've tried to rebuild and get younger but we suck at drafting players and trading for young ones. Maybe if we did a better job identifying pieces that fit and would work we'd be okay. We've blown way to many draft picks.

 

 

First round picks since 2005

 

Lance Broadway

Kyle McCulloch

Aaron Poreda

Gordan Beckham

Jared Mitchell

Josh Phegley

Chris Sale

Keenyn Walker

Courtney Hawkins

Keon Barnum

Tim Anderson

Carlos Rodon

Carson Fulmer

 

A few years prior

Gio Gonzalez

Tyler Lumsden

Josh Fields

Brian Anderson

Royce Ring

Kris Honel

 

Folks this is why we suck. We hit on one, maybe 2 pitchers so far and Gio brought value in a trade. We screwed up with all but one position player thus far and he may just be mediocre. If your FO can't draft or find solid players to trade and sign into the organization you are screwed whether you rebuild or retool.

Edited November 7, 2016 by SonofaRoache

[southsider2k5]

Well that's a point I've been making. I don't trust our FO moving in any direction. We've tried to rebuild and get younger but we suck at drafting players and trading for young ones. Maybe if we did a better job identifying pieces that fit and would work we'd be okay. We've blown way to many draft picks.

 

 

First round picks since 2005

 

Lance Broadway

Kyle McCulloch

Aaron Poreda

Gordan Beckham

Jared Mitchell

Josh Phegley

Chris Sale

Keenyn Walker

Courtney Hawkins

Keon Barnum

Tim Anderson

Carlos Rodon

Carson Fulmer

 

A few years prior

Gio Gonzalez

Tyler Lumsden

Josh Fields

Brian Anderson

Royce Ring

Kris Honel

 

Folks this is why we suck. We hit on one, maybe 2 pitchers so far and Gio brought value in a trade. We screwed up with all but one position player thus far and he may just be mediocre. If your FO can't draft or find solid players to trade and sign into the organization you are screwed whether you rebuild or retool.

 

Walker and Barnum were not first round picks FWIW.

[Hatchetman]

Depends on what you define as a 1st round pick:

 

Drafted by the Chicago White Sox in the 1st round (48th) of the 2012 MLB June Amateur Draft from King HS (Tampa, FL).

[SonofaRoache]

Walker and Barnum were not first round picks FWIW.

 

 

They both were top picks for us who gave absolutely nothing to the organization. Top prospects in our organization who can't hack it in the minors.

Edited November 7, 2016 by SonofaRoache

[SonofaRoache]

Depends on what you define as a 1st round pick:

 

Drafted by the Chicago White Sox in the 1st round (48th) of the 2012 MLB June Amateur Draft from King HS (Tampa, FL).

 

 

Point is they were our first picks and were bad ones like the rest for the most part. That is really the point I'm making. This is why I have no faith in a rebuild as was asked.

[ChiSox59]

Well that's a point I've been making. I don't trust our FO moving in any direction. We've tried to rebuild and get younger but we suck at drafting players and trading for young ones. Maybe if we did a better job identifying pieces that fit and would work we'd be okay. We've blown way to many draft picks.

 

 

First round picks since 2005

 

Lance Broadway

Kyle McCulloch

Aaron Poreda

Gordan Beckham

Jared Mitchell

Josh Phegley

Chris Sale

Keenyn Walker

Courtney Hawkins

Keon Barnum

Tim Anderson

Carlos Rodon

Carson Fulmer

 

A few years prior

Gio Gonzalez

Tyler Lumsden

Josh Fields

Brian Anderson

Royce Ring

Kris Honel

 

Folks this is why we suck. We hit on one, maybe 2 pitchers so far and Gio brought value in a trade. We screwed up with all but one position player thus far and he may just be mediocre. If your FO can't draft or find solid players to trade and sign into the organization you are screwed whether you rebuild or retool.

 

Starting with Chris Sale, the Sox have improved immensely with drafting, including their first round picks. Walker was taken 47th overall, and Barnum 48th, which were sandwich round picks and not first rounders in the traditional sense. Missing picks in the back end of the top 50 isn't exactly something unique to the White Sox.

[SonofaRoache]

Starting with Chris Sale, the Sox have improved immensely with drafting, including their first round picks. Walker was taken 47th overall, and Barnum 48th, which were sandwich round picks and not first rounders in the traditional sense. Missing picks in the back end of the top 50 isn't exactly something unique to the White Sox.

 

 

Three of the guys you bolded are pitchers which is fine. But two of them have not proven themselves. Tim Anderson is a nice pick but unproven so we will see on them. I agree it has gotten better but they need some serious offensive production out of top draftees. And yes the FO is accountable for the 47th and 48th pick not working out even if other teams fail. One of those guys was the 7th rated prospect in our farm and can't hit .260 in the minors.

Edited November 7, 2016 by SonofaRoache

[Dick Allen]

Three of the guys you bolded are pitchers which is fine. But two of them have not proven themselves. Tim Anderson is a nice pick but unproven so we will see on them. I agree it has gotten better but they need some serious offensive production out of top draftees. And yes the FO is accountable for the 47th and 48th pick not working out even if other teams fail. One of those guys was the 7th rated prospect in our farm and can't hit .260 in the minors.

I'm not going to hold anybody that accountable for the 47th or 48th pick not working out, but what does sort of make me pause is that it is the same issue they have with so many picks. Not only can they not hit, they cannot make contact. For a while, the sabermatricians tried to sell everyone on the strike out is just another out belief. I personally think it was because these were the guys who played little league and struck out all the time because they sucked. Considering mathematics, a strike out isn't anywhere near like making contact. BABIP is about .300. Batting average whiffing is .000. Striking out a ton, unless you are hitting a lot of homers, is a sign you suck at hitting. It's really pretty simple. The Sox went for guys who could score high at a compound, but baseball is different. You need baseball players, not athletes. It's a lot harder to turn an athlete into a baseball player, than it is a football or basketball player.

[he gone.]

I'd like to see the 1st round picks of the Cardinals or Cubs over the past decade. And I know those are strong examples. If not them, maybe throw in an Orioles or Tigers. Kind of middling teams. I wonder how much better or worse their first round picks are..

[he gone.]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/draft/history/_/team/hou

 

Actually here it is. Can bring up any team's first round picks.

 

What I'll say is this ... you have to get lucky. If Fulmer does something for us? Having Sale, Rodon and Fulmer is actually a very strong 6-10 year draft history.

 

If you have a 50% hit ratio of all-star type picks your team is going to be unstoppable.

[Dick Allen]

I'd like to see the 1st round picks of the Cardinals or Cubs over the past decade. And I know those are strong examples. If not them, maybe throw in an Orioles or Tigers. Kind of middling teams. I wonder how much better or worse their first round picks are..

The Cardinals first round picks since 2007, and it's technically over 20 guys, collectively has the same WAR as Sale.

[captain54]

The draft is just part of the problem. You can look at what other teams have drafted and look at their 1st round picks and success rate, but that's like trying to diagnose an unknown illness and only looking at 1/3 of the persons body. There is much more to the story.

 

Simply put, the Sox have done an incredibly poor job of identifying talent. In the draft, in trades and in free agent signings. You can create all the lists you want, go nuts. The only list you need to look at is playoff appearances the last 15 years. That gives you the clearest diagnoses there is.

 

Before I begin, please don't go all SSDR2K2 on me and attribute my comment to bias, or anger, or fabrication, or whatever any other non sensical excuse may come to your brain..

 

But, a string of unsuccessful seasons such as the Sox have had, starts at the top...

 

Using the medical analogy, it's like trying to diagnose a person with a blood disorder, or poor circulation, etc.. and not doing any sort of critical examination or testing of the heart...

 

You would have to believe in terms of evaluating talent, scouting talent, drafting.. the proper people have not been hired to work these areas OR, the qualified people are in place and JR is fully involved in these day to day decisions...

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Before I begin, please don't go all SSDR2K2 on me and attribute my comment to bias, or anger, or fabrication, or whatever any other non sensical excuse may come to your brain..

 

But, a string of unsuccessful seasons such as the Sox have had, starts at the top...

 

Using the medical analogy, it's like trying to diagnose a person with a blood disorder, or poor circulation, etc.. and not doing any sort of critical examination or testing of the heart...

 

You would have to believe in terms of evaluating talent, scouting talent, drafting.. the proper people have not been hired to work these areas OR, the qualified people are in place and JR is fully involved in these day to day decisions...

You and Thad can post JR has to go a million more times, and you may be correct, but, he isn't going to go, so why bother?

[captain54]

You and Thad can post JR has to go a million more times, and you may be correct, but, he isn't going to go, so why bother?

 

I'm fully aware JR isn't going anywhere... and I'm aware he's not referring to Soxtalk.com or any other site for suggestions on how to change his ways...

 

Why bother? because we can talk about this and that, and analyze the crap out of all of this stuff.. It's all flotsam and jetsam.. and it's all good, but let's try to keep in mind the source of these ills

 

By the way, I googled "flotsam and jetsam", to make sure it was grammatically correct.. to make sure Officer SSDR2K2 of the Grammatics and Semantics Police didn't bust me with a citation..

Just trying to keep in in perspective for y'all. Think of it as a Public Service...

 

You're Welcome..

Edited November 7, 2016 by captain54

[southsider2k5]

I'm fully aware JR isn't going anywhere... and I'm aware he's not referring to Soxtalk.com or any other site for suggestions on how to change his ways...

 

Why bother? because we can talk about this and that, and analyze the crap out of all of this stuff.. It's all flotsam and jetsam.

 

By the way, I googled "flotsam and jetsam", to make sure it was grammatically correct.. to make sure Officer SSDR2K of the Grammatics and Semantics Police didn't bust me with a citation..

 

Just trying to keep in in perspective for y'all. Think of it as a Public Service...

 

You're Welcome..

 

It is rather amusing how thin your skin is that you feel the need to take personal shots at me constantly, even when not in a discussion with you.

[ChiSox59]

The Cardinals first round picks since 2007, and it's technically over 20 guys, collectively has the same WAR as Sale.

 

Exactly.