Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:46 PM) It's alive and it's murder. Kill a pregnant woman in something like 38 states and it's a double homicide. But hey, keep trying to hide the murder. Since when do laws have anything to do with science? Nice try, but you will never win this argument on scientific grounds. You want to argue "religion" and "morality" feel free. But again, those same people were the ones who said the Earth was the center of the Universe. The very people who made Da Vinci and Galileo have to hide their findings for fear of backlash. Earth now center of Universe, not a debate because Church told me so! WOOT WOOT CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:49 PM) Since when do laws have anything to do with science? Nice try, but you will never win this argument on scientific grounds. You want to argue "religion" and "morality" feel free. But again, those same people were the ones who said the Earth was the center of the Universe. The very people who made Da Vinci and Galileo have to hide their findings for fear of backlash. Earth now center of Universe, not a debate because Church told me so! WOOT WOOT CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE! Nothing to do with religion. You'll find no scientific evidence that the human life does not start at conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 A friend of mine works for a large adoption agency. She said business is getting really slow. There now is so much red tape with foreign adoptions, many countries won't go through it with the US. But what I found interesting is she said since the ACA, there are far less unplanned pregnancies in the US, as women are getting more birth control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 09:46 PM) It's just as silly which is the valid comparison. Your inability to understand the pro-choice position(s) is not evidence against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) Nothing to do with religion. You'll find no scientific evidence that the human life does not start at conception. Well I guess we're all just going to hell for being murders. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) Your inability to understand the pro-choice position(s) is not evidence against it. any evidence of my lack of understanding or just an attack on a poster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Well I guess we're all just going to hell for being murders. Oh well. Yep, a fictional place from a book is definitely my final resting place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 2 days before the election, Trump called the electoral college "a disaster for democracy". Turns out he was correct, as always, as it appears Hillary will win the popular vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:50 PM) Nothing to do with religion. You'll find no scientific evidence that the human life does not start at conception. Actually that is false. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive outside of the womb? No. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive with assistance from science outside of the womb? No. Can a human survive with assistance of science survive outside of the womb? Yes. If a human cannot survive with the assistance of science outside of the womb, what do we call them? Dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:44 PM) Youre right, it isnt a debate. Its not murder. In order for something to be murdered, it has to be alive. In order for something to be alive it has to be capable of self sustaining. Is it "murder" when I get a haircut? Is it "murder" when someone has their tubes tied? Is it murder when someone has a vasectomy? (edit) Earth flat? You do realize the people who call abortion "murder" are the same people who said the "earth is flat." Either you with science or you are against science, this isnt a scientific debate, this is a religious one. We've been over this before, but this is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 12:55 PM) Yep, a fictional place from a book is definitely my final resting place Can't be worse than Trump's America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) A friend of mine works for a large adoption agency. She said business is getting really slow. There now is so much red tape with foreign adoptions, many countries won't go through it with the US. But what I found interesting is she said since the ACA, there are far less unplanned pregnancies in the US, as women are getting more birth control. Free or super cheap BC wasn't enough at Planned Parenthood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 08:53 PM) any evidence of my lack of understanding or just an attack on a poster? The fact that you think it is "silly", or somehow comparable to believing in a flat Earth, makes me believe you've not actually examined it. I don't think the pro-life position is silly; I just don't agree with it. Can you tell me why you think people are pro-choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:55 PM) Actually that is false. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive outside of the womb? No. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive with assistance from science outside of the womb? No. Can a human survive with assistance of science survive outside of the womb? Yes. If a human cannot survive with the assistance of science outside of the womb, what do we call them? Dead. By your definition we can kill babies until they can feed themselves. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:55 PM) We've been over this before, but this is nonsense. We have been over reasonable positions. If you want to argue that at some point after pregnancy there is a moment where the cells become "human" and therefore should be protected, I 100% agree with that. But that is not the argument. He is saying all abortion is murder. And there is no way anyone can scientifically argue that at day 1 its the equivalent of a "human". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:55 PM) Actually that is false. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive outside of the womb? No. Can a 1 week fertilized egg survive with assistance from science outside of the womb? No. Can a human survive with assistance of science survive outside of the womb? Yes. If a human cannot survive with the assistance of science outside of the womb, what do we call them? Dead. The problem with this way of thinking is that as technology develops you're changing the definition of what is alive/dead. So over time more deaths occurred. That's a nonsensical way of looking at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) By your definition we can kill babies until they can feed themselves. Nice! Actually no. If you read you would see that a baby could survive with science (feeding tube, etc) so obviously they are "human". Nice try, keep them coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) We have been over reasonable positions. If you want to argue that at some point after pregnancy there is a moment where the cells become "human" and therefore should be protected, I 100% agree with that. But that is not the argument. He is saying all abortion is murder. And there is no way anyone can scientifically argue that at day 1 its the equivalent of a "human". That's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 03:56 PM) Free or super cheap BC wasn't enough at Planned Parenthood? The greater the access to free or cheap contraception, the fewer unplanned pregnancies. That both reduces abortion and the burden on the system when people who can't afford to have children have an accident. http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics...y-not-last-long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) The problem with this way of thinking is that as technology develops you're changing the definition of what is alive/dead. So over time more deaths occurred. That's a nonsensical way of looking at it. Im 100% fine with this way of thinking. And if ever science became so advanced that you could remove the cells at day 1 and save them, I would have a really hard time arguing that abortion should be legal. Because at that point giving away the cells would be akin to giving a child away for adoption. But as of today, that is not scientifically feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) We have been over reasonable positions. If you want to argue that at some point after pregnancy there is a moment where the cells become "human" and therefore should be protected, I 100% agree with that. But that is not the argument. He is saying all abortion is murder. And there is no way anyone can scientifically argue that at day 1 its the equivalent of a "human". Well, except jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 02:56 PM) Free or super cheap BC wasn't enough at Planned Parenthood? Don't know. There were a bunch of us at dinner and I don't think she wanted it to get political, she just said, whether you want to believe it or not, it's true, since it's been enacted, that has been one of the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 03:02 PM) Don't know. There were a bunch of us at dinner and I don't think she wanted it to get political, she just said, whether you want to believe it or not, it's true, since it's been enacted, that has been one of the results. The use of BC whether free or cheap or whatever is always going to be an issue for a great number of the folks that also use plan B or have abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 03:01 PM) Well, except jesus. I have no problem with people who want to argue morality/religion. That is 100% their right as an American. I may not agree, but they are free to argue that position. Just dont take a "religious" position and then try and convince me that its a "science" position. If someone wants to argue on religious grounds, we can go down that path. I have some old testament arguments that suggest that life begins when the child could "breathe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 03:41 PM) Jews are good. Ivanka is a converted Jew as her husband, Jared Kushner, was raised as an orthodox Jew. Not to his neo-Nazi supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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