The Rebuilt White Sox

[hi8is]

I have a question: Why does everybody want to 'rebuild' when we already have a ton of good players? And a lot of awful players. But our front office could rectify the situation by adding a few in free agency.

 

Look, do you trust our scouts to trade for the right young guys to rebuild?? I don't. You keep this amazing starting rotation intact and do these things...

1B - Keep Abreu.

2B - trade Frazier, play Saladino if his back is OK.

SS - Keep Anderson

3B - Keep Frazier

Infield prognosis: Very good infield offensively and defensively.

LF - Trade Melky

CF - Keep Eaton

RF - Trade Avi.

C - Pay one in free agency.

DH - Pay one in free agency.

Outfield prognosis: Admittedly not great.

Bullpen: Sign some, trade for some.

Look, a total rebuild is insane with this pitching staff. Our scouts suck. I don't trust a total revamping of the roster. You are looking at a 40 win team if we trade Sale, Q, Robertson, Frazier, Abreu.

Lackluster effort, brother man.

 

[black jack]

I want above average team speed and defense across the board.

 

Ideally, most of them would be high OBP players also.

[ChiSox1917]

I'd just like one that wins consistently. Don't care how it's done.

[BamaDoc]

I would like a fundamentally sound team defensively and on the base paths. A pitching staff that pounds the strike zone and generates ground balls as well as k's. Offensively, I would like a team which works counts yet has low strikeouts and high OBP. Hitters who can execute situationally, not necessarily bunt heavy but hitting behind runners, beating shifts, and moving runners over and getting them in from third with less than two outs.

[Eminor3rd]

So my understanding of all of the new stats is limited since I just don't get it (WAR is wins above replacement...the replacement being who they replaced, or is it the next best average ball player? Help me out here if you can.)

 

A "replacement player" refers to the production of, essentially, a typically available AAA replacement.

[greg775]

So how many years before we can finish .500 if we totally rebuild? It could be a long long time right?

[WBWSF]

There has been all this speculation as to what type of team the White Sox will have in 2017. I just wish that they would do whatever they're going to do as soon as possible. If they are going to trade Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Frazier and Robertson. Or if they are going to sign some free agents, I wish they would just do it and get it over with. At least the fans will know which way this team is going.

[MEANS]

So how many years before we can finish .500 if we totally rebuild? It could be a long long time right?

 

 

I don't know, but we've only finished above .500 4 TIMES since 2005....with only one of those times bringing a playoff appearance. Let that sink in sir. It's time to rebuild no matter how much you want to deny it.

[Balta1701]

There has been all this speculation as to what type of team the White Sox will have in 2017. I just wish that they would do whatever they're going to do as soon as possible. If they are going to trade Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Frazier and Robertson. Or if they are going to sign some free agents, I wish they would just do it and get it over with. At least the fans will know which way this team is going.

It's still early enough that even I'm going to reply that It's early, and I agree with you that they need to be aggressive in moving Sale. The market today is still feeling its way out - we've just had our first stupid money signing of the offseason and only the Astros and Mariners have been aggressive in trying to get better. I can make a case that the Astros are going to be more interested in Sale today than they would have been last week, and that's a good thing for the White Sox.

 

Add in the lack of a CBA and you make things even more annoyingly complex. If we're in the days when the Winter Meetings are about to start and they're still standing pat, then this is a much more valid complaint.

[Lillian]

Not having read all of these posts, in the various related threads, the question that keeps nagging me is; How long would it take, and with what probability, could this team build a contender, with both Sale and Quintana gone? This question is particularly relevant if the Sox focus upon position players, in their return of prospects.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Not having read all of these posts, in the various related threads, the question that keeps nagging me is; How long would it take, and with what probability, could this team build a contender, with both Sale and Quintana gone? This question is particularly relevant if the Sox focus upon position players, in their return of prospects.

 

I think the answer is pretty much always 3 years. In today's game, what with more playoff teams than ever and more ways to infuse your team with amateur talent than ever, it's tough to argue that any team is ever more than 3 years away.

 

Now, that doesn't mean they won't screw it up or get unlucky. But at any given time, I think you are three years of reasonable luck/decisions from contention.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I want a high OBP and contact team that runs. Put pressure on pitchers and defenses. Truth is our pitching is always there. At least with the rotation. Bullpen would've been better had not been injuries with a couple arms and Robertson was hurt.

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah, I mean I guess the point is that if a significant part of Bregman's value is tied to his ability at SS, then you either need to be willing to move Anderson off SS or else value Bregman as 2B or 3B.

 

You don't want to hurt his value or overpay for him if he doesn't represent that value to you.

Or you need to get a 3rd team involved and move Bregman for someone who is a better overall fit for your team (if you do in fact think his value is tied to SS). I also tend to think Anderson is most valuable at SS. That isn't to say it can't work cause obviously you can have one at 2B or do something else.

 

I don't think this is the case for Bregman though (in the sense that he needs to stick at SS).

[Chisoxfn]

To answer the question, I don't care the style as long as we play winning baseball. All I want to see on the southside is winning baseball, but if we are going to lose in the process, please let it be with young players who we see a future with, vs. because our veterans continue to let us down, etc. Give me losses with some hope vs. losses with little to no hope (which is what the last few years have been).

[greg775]

To answer the question, I don't care the style as long as we play winning baseball. All I want to see on the southside is winning baseball, but if we are going to lose in the process, please let it be with young players who we see a future with, vs. because our veterans continue to let us down, etc. Give me losses with some hope vs. losses with little to no hope (which is what the last few years have been).

Thing is, we don't know if we would have even had to rebuild if we had a real manager the past few years. Could a real manager have taken this team, which has 4-6 very good players, and won with it?

[Bob Sacamano]

Thing is, we don't know if we would have even had to rebuild if we had a real manager the past few years. Could a real manager have taken this team, which has 4-6 very good players, and won with it?

 

No.

[KMule2545]

Hey guys, long time reader of Soxtalk (used to post as jenks45monster as a kid).

 

My response may be a little too obvious but I'd like to see a team built around contact, obp, power potential, defense, and high-upside, good stuff, electric arms.

 

Personality-wise, we need to get back to the classic Southside mentality that Sox teams had under Ozzie and while we had guys like AJ and Rowand. I'd say Eaton and Frazier are the only players on our current roster who exemplify the same run-thru-a-wall/never back down toughness. That being said, I hope they're both moved for future assets. Eaton is already a couple of years away from 30 and I don't see his speed based skill set aging well. Beside that he's pretty immature.

 

We need the blue collar type of mentality 1-25. Guys who will show up to win ever single day - at any cost. Confident guys who put their head down and are ready to get to work.

[Balta1701]

So, I keep still seeing people with the suggestion that we're still only a handful of players away and that the problem is the lack of a little more FA spending. So, my answer in this thread is:

 

I want a team where we can look at them and say "this is the strongest organization top to bottom in the AL Central".

 

A couple weeks ago I looked through Cleveland's roster and realized that aside from short term guys like Napoli and Davis, their roster is entirely under control next year, they only have to replace Santana the year after that, and despite the deals they made this year to get Miller they still have a huge amount of talent under control. One quick list check had them with 5-6 top 100(ish) quality guys even after giving up a top 25 talent for Miller, and that's not counting the guy on suspension for steroids, not counting any of their 2016 draft picks, and not noting that they still have Michael Brantley if he could come back healthy. The Cubs are the same basic way - they promoted seemingly everyone, gave up a top 25 player for Chapman, and still have 3 top-100 ish guys.

 

These organizations are going to be really good for the next several years. They are world series quality organizations at the big league level and they're loaded at the minor league level. Literally no one for either organization is saying "we'll make the playoffs if everything goes right". No one is saying how they'd make a 15 game improvement if they signed one player based on the magic of how they'll work together, no one is describing how no one could have predicted that the 4th and 5th best relief pitcher on the roster would get hurt.

 

I want an organization where if someone goes down, either the next guy up from AAA is a big league quality player who needs seasoning, or you trade for the top guy on the market at that position because your system can swing it. I want an organization where you're able to go and bid for a top of the line free agent because you know you have enough young talent coming up that you can replace your all star at another position when they reach free agency.

 

It doesn't have to last forever. That's tough, esp. when you're not drafting in the top 10. Give me a 3 year window where on paper the White Sox are the most talented team in the AL Central and they're the most talented of any of the organizations in the AL central. Give me a 3 year window where we're not just hoping to squeak into the playoffs and hope your pitchers take care of things, give me a 3 year window where the wild card is a disappointment.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Or you need to get a 3rd team involved and move Bregman for someone who is a better overall fit for your team (if you do in fact think his value is tied to SS). I also tend to think Anderson is most valuable at SS. That isn't to say it can't work cause obviously you can have one at 2B or do something else.

 

I don't think this is the case for Bregman though (in the sense that he needs to stick at SS).

 

Nah...you don't worry about where Bregman plays. Just get his bat in the lineup. He has 15+ HR potential (8 in 200 MLB ab's), so he'd be just fine at 3B or even LF. He'd easily be an instant top 4 hitter on our team so I'm sure we could manage to find a spot for him.

[KMule2545]

So, I keep still seeing people with the suggestion that we're still only a handful of players away and that the problem is the lack of a little more FA spending. So, my answer in this thread is:

 

I want a team where we can look at them and say "this is the strongest organization top to bottom in the AL Central".

 

A couple weeks ago I looked through Cleveland's roster and realized that aside from short term guys like Napoli and Davis, their roster is entirely under control next year, they only have to replace Santana the year after that, and despite the deals they made this year to get Miller they still have a huge amount of talent under control. One quick list check had them with 5-6 top 100(ish) quality guys even after giving up a top 25 talent for Miller, and that's not counting the guy on suspension for steroids, not counting any of their 2016 draft picks, and not noting that they still have Michael Brantley if he could come back healthy. The Cubs are the same basic way - they promoted seemingly everyone, gave up a top 25 player for Chapman, and still have 3 top-100 ish guys.

 

These organizations are going to be really good for the next several years. They are world series quality organizations at the big league level and they're loaded at the minor league level. Literally no one for either organization is saying "we'll make the playoffs if everything goes right". No one is saying how they'd make a 15 game improvement if they signed one player based on the magic of how they'll work together, no one is describing how no one could have predicted that the 4th and 5th best relief pitcher on the roster would get hurt.

 

I want an organization where if someone goes down, either the next guy up from AAA is a big league quality player who needs seasoning, or you trade for the top guy on the market at that position because your system can swing it. I want an organization where you're able to go and bid for a top of the line free agent because you know you have enough young talent coming up that you can replace your all star at another position when they reach free agency.

 

It doesn't have to last forever. That's tough, esp. when you're not drafting in the top 10. Give me a 3 year window where on paper the White Sox are the most talented team in the AL Central and they're the most talented of any of the organizations in the AL central. Give me a 3 year window where we're not just hoping to squeak into the playoffs and hope your pitchers take care of things, give me a 3 year window where the wild card is a disappointment.

 

Exactly. Depth is the key. Not just having a handful very good/elite level players. Signing a Fowler and Cespedes still does not add the depth we desperately need. We need an entire roster of contributers + some to take injuries into account. We're about halfway there currently. Which is not nearly good enough. Tear it down completely between now and the trade dealine. Turn 6-8 assets into 20+.

[Bob Sacamano]

Nah...you don't worry about where Bregman plays. Just get his bat in the lineup. He has 15+ HR potential (8 in 200 MLB ab's), so he'd be just fine at 3B or even LF. He'd easily be an instant top 4 hitter on our team so I'm sure we could manage to find a spot for him.

 

Or 2B.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'd like to see MLB Network stop using Phil Rogers as the Sox expert. Saw him on today as the expert after MLB Network did a quick 2016 Sox recap/what they need for 2017 and he called Omar Narvaez, Omar Nar Vase .

[Dam8610]

What STYLE of baseball do you believe is the way to go in 2017 & beyond?

 

This is a good question, something to which every front office should give a lot of thought (though it appears ours hasn't with it's mishmash cast of talent). Implementing an answer to this question involves implementing an organization-wide philosophy on how to win baseball games, one that should be ingrained from the summer leagues and rookie ball all the way through Chicago. So, the question, then, is what is to be valued by the organization, and how do they acquire it? If I am answering this question, I would look at the game from an analytical perspective on a very basic level. The objective of a baseball game is to score more runs than your opponent within nine 3 out innings. Technically, the amount of runs that can be scored by a team is limitless. A team that hits well enough could, in theory, score 50 or more runs in a given game. The constraint on this, however, is the outs. Thus, I would focus my organization-wide philosophy on controlling the outs. In pitchers, I would seek, in order of importance, high strikeout rates, high soft contact rates, high GB%, and low walk rates. In position players, I would seek, in order of importance, elite defensive ability, high BB rates, low K rates, and high LD rates. I would also ask my development staff to try to develop players in a way that would produce these traits, and only hire coaches and managers who felt that these traits were key to success, so that anyone coming through my development pipeline will hear the same philosophies from rookie ball to Chicago. The more you constrain your opponent's ability to score, and the more difficult you make it for your opponent to constrain your ability to score, the more likely it is that you will win. Control the outs, control the game.