SOURCE: 2 horse race between Dodgers and Astros

[GreenSox]

So far with still a limited sample size, Saladino has been league average at 3B but above average at 2nd.

And his bat improved last year. If he can make better contact and walk a little more, he could be really useful and play a lot. He hit about as well as Lawrie did last year.

[PolishPrince34]

He offered Samrdzija $85 million. Perhaps not ace money in today's environment, but more than Anything Hahn may have offered. And he wasn't supposed to be an ace on the White Sox, they already had one, so your point appears way off.

He signed for $90 million with the Giants, so Theo was pretty close, closer than Hahn.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/6/18/5822630/...fer-rumors-cubs

Epstein also offered a $75 million contract to Annibal Sanchez. Very lucky he turned that down. Very good chance they wouldn't of drafted Bryant and Schwarber. Sanchez would of helped them on the front end of the deal, but would of hurt their draft position.

[southsider2k5]

Bregman is extremely versatile. Saladino and Sanchez can both play anywhere in the IF. You guys are arguing apples and oranges here. Why do versatile players need to have a set position, especially in this day and age? Bregman will hit anywhere you put him and Saladino will defend anywhere you put him.

 

In general, players do better with a set role. Some can flourish otherwise, but in general, players want to know where they are playing and hitting on a daily basis. Moving people around and getting them thinking are usually not good things.

[KMule2545]

So far with still a limited sample size, Saladino has been league average at 3B but above average at 2nd.

 

Saladino had 12 DRS in 60 games at 3B in 2015. He had 1 DRS at 2B in 41 games in 2016. On paper he seems like a better fielder on the left side.

 

The guy was simply a better hitter in 2016 than 2015. I don't understand comparing him to other 3B or 2B offensively. Obviously 3B is a deeper position offensively. Comparing them to other 2B and 3B offensively matters very little for us other than how sexy it looks on paper (league average vs above league average, at a certain position), especially with our 3 hitters deep lineup (Eaton, Abreu, Tim) at the moment. We need good players, period. Whether they're average etc. at one position compared to the rest of the league is irrelevant.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[KMule2545]

In general, players do better with a set role. Some can flourish otherwise, but in general, players want to know where they are playing and hitting on a daily basis. Moving people around and getting them thinking are usually not good things.

 

I would say Tyler Saladino embraces such a role, though. Heard him say he's been playing everywhere on the diamond since he was a kid. I can't speak on that for Bregman.

 

I hate to bring the Cubs up, but they're the perfect example. Bryant, Zobrist, Baez, Contreras, Schwarber all can play in multiple spots. I'm willing to bet all of those guys have egos too. It's about a selfless culture where winning is the most important thing.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[southsider2k5]

I would say Tyler Saladino embraces such a role, though. Heard him say he's been playing everywhere on the diamond since he was a kid. I can't speak on that for Bregman.

 

I hate to bring the Cubs up, but they're the perfect example. Bryant, Zobrist, Baez, Contreras, Schwarber all can play in multiple spots. I'm willing to bet all of those guys have egos too. It's about a selfless culture where winning is the most important thing.

 

Sounds great on a greeting card. Doesn't work as well in real life.

[KMule2545]

Sounds great on a greeting card. Doesn't work as well in real life.

 

Lol. 2015 and 2016 Cubs never happened I guess. Just because all 30 MLB teams don't do something doesn't mean it can't or wouldn't work for the White Sox. It's absurd to denounce something we haven't even tried. But we have failed with guys having 1 set position.

 

Joe Maddon's Christmas cards read "2016 MLB CHAMPS"

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[southsider2k5]

Lol. 2015 and 2016 Cubs never happened I guess. Just because all 30 MLB teams don't do something doesn't mean it can't or wouldn't work for the White Sox. It's absurd to denounce something we haven't even tried. But we have failed with guys having 1 set position.

 

Joe Maddon's Christmas cards read "2016 MLB CHAMPS"

 

The reason it is something you noticed is because they were the one team who was able to carry it off. If it were easy, 29 other teams would be doing it. I swear some people need to take the Cubbie blue glasses off.

[KMule2545]

The reason it is something you noticed is because they were the one team who was able to carry it off. If it were easy, 29 other teams would be doing it. I swear some people need to take the Cubbie blue glasses off.

 

Winning isn't easy.

 

IT ISN'T ABOUT THE CUBS. It's about being open minded and trying something new. I'm willing to bet you're in the category of people on here who want to keep going for it again too. Or trade Sale and Frazier then keep going for it in half-ass White Sox style. I swear some people want to keep banging their heads against the wall and expect different results instead of using new and different ideas with an open mind. Joe Maddon just so happens to be on the Northside of Chicago. I'd be saying the same thing if he was still in Tampa (where he was also highly successful with a lot less talent).

 

Again, I didn't suggest to do it with your whole team. One of the mentioned players in Bregman isn't even on our team, and Sanchez is likely to be a bench player anyway. When Zack Collins comes up we damn well better use him as a 1B/C/DH and maybe even LF if we keep him at catcher, to keep his bat legit. Look how quick Joe Mauer became irrelevant and an awful contract by staying behind the plate strictly. Buster Posey's OPS+ has fallen every single year the past 5.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[Balta1701]

Winning isn't easy.

 

IT ISN'T ABOUT THE CUBS. It's about being open minded and trying something new. I'm willing to bet you're in the category of people on here who want to keep going for it again too. Or trade Sale and Frazier then keep going for it in half-ass White Sox style. I swear some people want to keep banging their heads against the wall and losing instead of using new and different ideas with an open mind. Joe Maddon just so happens to be on the Northside of Chicago. I'd be saying the same thing if he was still in Tampa (where he was also highly successful with a lot less talent).

 

Again, I didn't suggest to do it with your whole team. One of the mentioned players in Bregman isn't even on our team, and Sanchez is likely to be a bench player anyway. When Zack Collins comes up we damn well better use him as a 1B/C/DH and maybe even LF if we keep him at catcher, to keep his bat legit. Look how quick Joe Mauer became irrelevant and an awful contract by staying behind the plate strictly. Buster Posey's OPS+ have fallen every single year the past 5.

At the same time though - Buster Posey won 3 world series championships while still on his rookie deal and the Twins won the AL Central 3 of 5 years between 2006 and 2010 with Mauer still under his rookie control. Yes, without steroids catchers take a beating, but a major bat at the catching position can be a huge difference maker - a big boost in OPS out of that slot makes up for a lot of weakness elsewhere in your lineup. And if he's only an average bat at the catching position rather than an MauerVP level bat, if you can work him up into a solid defender then an average bat at the catching spot with average defense is a really good player.

[KMule2545]

At the same time though - Buster Posey won 3 world series championships while still on his rookie deal and the Twins won the AL Central 3 of 5 years between 2006 and 2010 with Mauer still under his rookie control. Yes, without steroids catchers take a beating, but a major bat at the catching position can be a huge difference maker - a big boost in OPS out of that slot makes up for a lot of weakness elsewhere in your lineup. And if he's only an average bat at the catching position rather than an MauerVP level bat, if you can work him up into a solid defender then an average bat at the catching spot with average defense is a really good player.

 

But would you rather have a guy putting up .300/.400/.500+ slash line potentially at a different spot with 30-40 HR, or an average at best catcher with a much lesser batting line? We drafted Collins for his bat first and foremost.

 

If we end up fully rebuilding and gain LF and 1B prospects I would agree with everything you said. As it stands now we don't even have those spots covered long-term.

 

[caulfield12]

The Cubs got much better than average production from their catcher's spot...same thing with the Royals and Perez.

 

The White Sox have proven in numerous ways how hard it is to replace a solid performer either offensively or defensively at that spot. All one needs to do is look at 2013-2016 and our output there.

 

Can't be too quick to bring up Collins for another position of need. Yet another reason rebuilding now instead of forcing Burdi, Fulmer and Collins up too quickly makes more sense.

[KMule2545]

The Cubs got much better than average production from their catcher's spot...same thing with the Royals and Perez.

 

The White Sox have proven in numerous ways how hard it is to replace a solid performer either offensively or defensively at that spot. All one needs to do is look at 2013-2016 and our output there.

 

Can't be too quick to bring up Collins for another position of need. Yet another reason rebuilding now instead of forcing Burdi, Fulmer and Collins up too quickly makes more sense.

 

I agree 100% with this but they did just rush him to the AFL in the year he was drafted. I'm prepared to see them rush prospects like they have been doing until they prove otherwise.

 

By the way, I wasn't suggesting to move Collins off catcher just because we have other positions of need long-term. Just to preserve his bat as long as possible. Most catchers aren't elite hitters, and if they are, they don't last that way long. I'm also worried about his defensive abilities behind the plate. Catching is after all a defensive-first position.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[southsider2k5]

But would you rather have a guy putting up .300/.400/.500+ slash line potentially at a different spot with 30-40 HR, or an average at best catcher with a much lesser batting line? We drafted Collins for his bat first and foremost.

 

If we end up fully rebuilding and gain LF and 1B prospects I would agree with everything you said. As it stands now we don't even have those spots covered long-term.

 

For my two cents, it is more about what is better for the team as a whole. This franchise is better if they have SS and 3B covered with star-ish players until the next decade and beyond.

[southsider2k5]

Winning isn't easy.

 

IT ISN'T ABOUT THE CUBS. It's about being open minded and trying something new. I'm willing to bet you're in the category of people on here who want to keep going for it again too. Or trade Sale and Frazier then keep going for it in half-ass White Sox style. I swear some people want to keep banging their heads against the wall and expect different results instead of using new and different ideas with an open mind. Joe Maddon just so happens to be on the Northside of Chicago. I'd be saying the same thing if he was still in Tampa (where he was also highly successful with a lot less talent).

 

Again, I didn't suggest to do it with your whole team. One of the mentioned players in Bregman isn't even on our team, and Sanchez is likely to be a bench player anyway. When Zack Collins comes up we damn well better use him as a 1B/C/DH and maybe even LF if we keep him at catcher, to keep his bat legit. Look how quick Joe Mauer became irrelevant and an awful contract by staying behind the plate strictly. Buster Posey's OPS+ has fallen every single year the past 5.

 

So look at the Cubs, but it isn't about the Cubs. Um, OK.

 

Like I said. If you listen to people who play the game, most players need stability to be at their best. Sure exceptions exist, but in general, if you look around baseball, star players play the same position, and hit in the same spot in the order, almost every single day of a season.

[KMule2545]

So look at the Cubs, but it isn't about the Cubs. Um, OK.

 

Like I said. If you listen to people who play the game, most players need stability to be at their best. Sure exceptions exist, but in general, if you look around baseball, star players play the same position, and hit in the same spot in the order, almost every single day of a season.

 

It's about how Joe Maddon chooses to utilize his players and creates a culture. He is one of the best in the game. He simply happens to be the Chicago Cubs manager and the only example of someone who uses such methods. Like I said, if he was still the manager of the Rays I would be using him as my example.

[Dick Allen]

Epstein offered Samardzija about 1/2 of what he offered Lester.

If he wasn't supposed to be a top of the rotation starter (obviously behind Sale, but still a front end guy), why did they trade for 1 year of his services?

The Giants and Cubs accurately saw him as a middle guy (and to be fair, that may be generous).

Samardzija was doing the best pitching of his career when Theo moved him....he took advantage and sold high. Hahn?

The Giants and the Cubs both offered more money to him than Hahn, why is it you insist Hahn thinks he is an ace and the others think he is a middle guy? The Sox have an ace, and had one before Samardzija was acquired. So keep telling us your BS, but the facts as usual don't match up with your posts.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'm hoping the Sox come away from the winter meetings with a Bregman package for Sale, and a Benintendi package for Quintana. Then the rest is gravy with Frazier, Melky, Abreu, etc. IMO

[steveno89]

I'm hoping the Sox come away from the winter meetings with a Bregman package for Sale, and a Benintendi package for Quintana. Then the rest is gravy with Frazier, Melky, Abreu, etc. IMO

 

Very doubtful they trade sale and Quintana. Rebuild or not they still have to field a team next year.

 

Be patient and let the market come to the sox

 

[caulfield12]

If they weren't planning to trade Sale, they're sure doing a good job of frustrating and teasing their fans.

 

They're not in a position to add significant talent via free agency, so what's the point of prolonging the inevitable?

[KMule2545]

Very doubtful they trade sale and Quintana. Rebuild or not they still have to field a team next year.

 

Be patient and let the market come to the sox

 

True. And thinking about it, it would be pretty difficult to do in one offseason due to 40-man roster spots. The 40-man currently sits at 39 after the Ranaudo release. It will already be tight with only a Sale trade, if we get players close to ML ready.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[southsider2k5]

True. And thinking about it, it would be pretty difficult to do in one offseason due to 40-man roster spots. The 40-man currently sits at 39 after the Ranaudo release. It will already be tight with only a Sale trade, if we get players close to ML ready.

 

Eh. There is plenty of chaff on the 40 man roster that will be easy to replace if we get back superior players.

[KMule2545]

Eh. There is plenty of chaff on the 40 man roster that will be easy to replace if we get back superior players.

 

I agree. But if you traded everyone with value this offseason per se (Sale, Q, Eaton, Abreu, Robertson, Jones, Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Jennings - 10 players) you're looking at getting around 20-25 players in return. There's maybe 5 or 6 guys on our 40-man I'd be okay ditching without either seeing more of them or getting literally nothing in return for them, on a supposed rebuilding team.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[GreenSox]

I agree. But if you traded everyone with value this offseason per se (Sale, Q, Eaton, Abreu, Robertson, Jones, Melky, Frazier, Lawrie, Jennings - 10 players) you're looking at getting around 20-25 players in return. There's maybe 5 or 6 guys on our 40-man I'd be okay ditching without either seeing more of them or getting literally nothing in return for them, on a supposed rebuilding team.

A lot of the guys would be low minor players.

There are a bunch on the 40 man that could be cut and wouldn't be missed.

[KMule2545]

A lot of the guys would be low minor players.

There are a bunch on the 40 man that could be cut and wouldn't be missed.

 

Which players are you okay with cutting and getting no value on?