SOURCE: 2 horse race between Dodgers and Astros

[Soxnfins]

I'm really curious why Houston seems so eager to move Springer. He seemingly fits in well in that clubhouse and fits perfectly on paper with Correa, Altuve, ect.

 

I mean from what I'm gathering is that they are going out and acquiring bats and need one big pitching piece. Reddick, an OF, going after Beltran to DH, Gattis is a DH/partial LF/1B/C, McCann brought into catch... something has got to give, unless they are planning to continue playing Springer in CF.

[Soxnfins]

There were rumors from connected insiders that the Astros offered a Springer based package for Same in July, which the Sox obviously passed on. Doubt a few months will change their mind. Bregman is the guy, though I am intrigued by your idea of both.

 

I do remember this as well... I think they may be posturing for both. Not holding my breath, but it makes sense.

[hi8is]

Springer and Bregman are both protectable 5 WAR players annually. Springer hit 5 WAR last year in his first full season and Bregman nearly hit 2 WAR in 44 games.

 

Sale's highest bWAR season was 6.9.

 

A trade for Sale for those two players alone would be a massive overpay. If it happened, we should all be elated and send Hahn Hersey Kisses, Bubble Bath, Red Wine, and Roses.

[iamshack]

Springer and Bregman are both protectable 5 WAR players annually. Springer hit 5 WAR last year in his first full season and Bregman nearly hit 2 WAR in 44 games.

 

Sale's highest bWAR season was 6.9.

 

A trade for Sale for those two players alone would be a massive overpay. If it happened, we should all be elated and send Hahn Hersey Kisses, Bubble Bath, Red Wine, and Roses.

Ok, I ask again...can we assume these guys are going to duplicate their performances for the next 6 years?

[oneofthemikes]

Springer and Bregman are both protectable 5 WAR players annually. Springer hit 5 WAR last year in his first full season and Bregman nearly hit 2 WAR in 44 games.

 

Sale's highest bWAR season was 6.9.

 

A trade for Sale for those two players alone would be a massive overpay. If it happened, we should all be elated and send Hahn Hersey Kisses, Bubble Bath, Red Wine, and Roses.

 

That seems kinda irrelevant. You think that the WAR for the remainder of the contracts of Andrew Miller, Aroldis Chapman, or Shelby Miller will end up being a wash with the career WAR of the players they got back? It's really easy for us to sit here and say how "projectable" prospects are, but "is" is worth a lot more than "could be". It's the nature of the market.

 

Springer is closer to a "known" than Bregman though. After all, through his first 50 games Gordon Beckham looked like a star in the making.

Edited November 24, 2016 by oneofthemikes

[Soxfest]

Springer has way less team control than I would want for a team rebuilding.

[hi8is]

Ok, I ask again...can we assume these guys are going to duplicate their performances for the next 6 years?

Springers production is proven. Bregman is more of a prospect than Beckham ever was. Of course you can't assume it but you can weigh the risk.

[hi8is]

Springer has way less team control than I would want for a team rebuilding.

Dude isn't a free agent until 2021. That's a lot of control dude.

[GreenSox]

I'm really curious why Houston seems so eager to move Springer. He seemingly fits in well in that clubhouse and fits perfectly on paper with Correa, Altuve, ect.

Probably willing to move him more than eager.

His defense isn't great, he Ks a lot and plays corner OF. He's very good, not great.

But considering his service time, rebuilding and the dire Sox need for defense (something that Rick Hahn has consistently ignored to the ongoing detriment of his team) , I'm really not interested in Springer as a headliner, even if Bregman isn't available. Plus, given the history of the Sox FO I think Springer as headliner will bring severely diminished overall return.

Edited November 24, 2016 by GreenSox

[Soxfest]

Dude isn't a free agent until 2021. That's a lot of control dude.

If I am trading Sale I want to build farm system, by time Sox start being good Springer is gone. Also I believe he is a FA in 2020 not 2021. 3 years control of Springer being the headliner and he is now arbitration eligible not a fan of this proposed deal.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Soxfest

[hi8is]

If I am trading Sale I want to build farm system, by time Sox start being good Springer is gone. Also I believe he is a FA in 2020.

If they execute things right, becoming a contender won't take 5 years. They have more assets going for them to aid in rebuilding than any team I can think of recently.

[KMule2545]

If they execute things right, becoming a contender won't take 5 years. They have more assets going for them to aid in rebuilding than any team I can think of recently.

 

No, but by the time they'd be good again, Springer would only have 1 or 2 years of control left. Kind of goofy to grab him unless they planned on flipping him this summer/next offseason for a Shelby Miller-esque package. Or unless they plan on doing a half rebuild, which seems fairly likely under this ownership and management.

[iamshack]

Springers production is proven. Bregman is more of a prospect than Beckham ever was. Of course you can't assume it but you can weigh the risk.

Yes you can, and you better believe I am factoring that into the price.

 

I just can't emphasize enough that these "projected" war for prospects should not be weighed evenly with Sale's past production or projected war.

[GreenSox]

If they execute things right, becoming a contender won't take 5 years. They have more assets going for them to aid in rebuilding than any team I can think of recently.

True, but if they get Springer, that's about all they are going to get for Sale. Springer is kind of like what Swisher was when the Sox traded for him...similar numbers, similar age, both could play CF if they had to. Springer's 27.

Bregman's 22.

 

Part of the execution has to be major improvement in the Sox own development/drafting/signing of young players.

Edited November 24, 2016 by GreenSox

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Sale and Frazier for Springer, Bregman, Martes, and Tucker?

[caulfield12]

If Springer was a Gold Glove caliber CFer, or the equivalent of Heyward on the corners...it would be Springer and a tier B prospect for Sale (because Sale will actually be cheaper).

 

Of course, Springer isn't that type of defender. But getting both Bregman and Springer for Sale is probably unrealistic...that's where you have to throw in another player like Frazier or Jones and go after guys like high ceiling but 2-3 years from the big leagues prospects like Tucker/Cameron.

[hi8is]

Houston would hate giving up just Bregman alone

Read some of the fan posts on their Soxtalk equivalent here.

[Chicago White Sox]

No offense guys, but the Astros aren't giving Springer & Bregman for Sale. If you honestly think that's possible, you're in for a world of dissapointment.

[hi8is]

No offense guys, but the Astros aren't giving Springer & Bregman for Sale. If you honestly think that's possible, you're in for a world of dissapointment.

But using WAR as a basis for that stance is just plain deplorable!

[GreenSox]

Of course, Springer isn't that type of defender. But getting both Bregman and Springer for Sale is probably unrealistic...that's where you have to throw in another player like Frazier or Jones and go after guys like high ceiling but 2-3 years from the big leagues prospects like Tucker/Cameron.

Or preferably take Bregman and prospects and forget Springer who will be near or at 30 when the Sox are good again.

They've got some pitching and OF prospects.

Edited November 24, 2016 by GreenSox

[bmags]

Houston would hate giving up just Bregman alone

Read some of the fan posts on their Soxtalk equivalent here.

 

They were actually incredibly reasonable. Lots of good stuff in there.

[PolishPrince34]

You are not getting both Bregman and Springer in the deal. I'm shocked anyone thinks Houston would consider that.

[hi8is]

They were actually incredibly reasonable. Lots of good stuff in there.

Indeed, there were a few voices of reason advocating Sales value... even defending the notion that Bregman's inclusion is a must.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, the whole idea of trading your two best pitchers and then plugging in the holes with Springer and JBJr. (for example) and competing "on the fly" would just require way too much going right with the remaining pitching staff. It would require bullpen repairs (costly) as well.

 

That would leave a rotation of Rodon, Gonzalez, Shields, Fulmer and ?????.

 

You basically have to hope breaking those established major leaguers into 2-3 prospects (depending on their Top 100 ranking) gives you AT LEAST two 3-4+ WAR players back, and improves the overall depth/quality of your team. You can argue back and forth about which is more valuable, a 3 WAR CF and a 3 WAR 2B or C, but you're always going to be generally better off having a solid line-up 1-9 than 2-3 superstar players and 5-6 stiffs.

Edited November 24, 2016 by caulfield12

[KMule2545]

If Springer was a Gold Glove caliber CFer, or the equivalent of Heyward on the corners...it would be Springer and a tier B prospect for Sale (because Sale will actually be cheaper).

 

Of course, Springer isn't that type of defender. But getting both Bregman and Springer for Sale is probably unrealistic...that's where you have to throw in another player like Frazier or Jones and go after guys like high ceiling but 2-3 years from the big leagues prospects like Tucker/Cameron.

 

Wasn't Springer the 3rd candidate in the running for AL RF Gold Glove this year with Betts and Eaton? I'm pretty certain he's an above average defender.