Legitimate chance of Sale trade to #Nationals per Rosenthal

[southsider2k5]

Or, better yet:change the people making the decisions, FIRST, and THEN, let a better, smarter front office make better and smarter decisions.

 

Remember, kids: Kenny Williams completed high school before the advent of "No Pass, No Play" Laws in California. Kenny Williams got into Stanford before the advent of Proposition 48, and then only bothered to stay for 1 semester...

 

Just something to think about when evaluating this front office's results.

 

This is incredibly ignorant, and borderline racist trash. If you are going to tell people to think, you should probably give them something to think about. This is about the lowest of lowest common denominator posting.

[Hatchetman]

new fangraphs article on Giolito.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-the-nat...-lucas-giolito/

 

 

[Dunt]

You can really tell who does and doesnt follow prospects here. Some of the stuff said in this thread is mind-numbingly dumb.

 

 

My guess is we hear about another team stepping up their offer for Sale and the Nationals cave for a package of Giolito, Robles, Lopez, Severino, and Soto.

[Buehrle>Wood]

No it won't and that's the problem. There are only so many teams that can afford Sale and they will move on to lesser options at some point. We have some leverage now, we won't in a few weeks.

It will, easily. Just because a team moves on does not somehow downgrade Sales value to just one top prospect. Sales value is what it is.

[steveno89]

I don't disagree with you about Turner, I'm just saying I think Hahn and Co are holding out for Turner still. I think if the discussion was about the remaining prospects, and Giolito and Robles were agreed upon, they would have been hammering this thing out last night. The absence of rumors overnight suggests that did not happen.

 

Not quite sure there is as big of a difference between Turner's perceived value and Benintendi's, but you certainly seem to feel as though Benintendi is a possible get while Turner is not.

 

Is there really a huge difference between a package of Benintendi/Devers/Kopech and Turner/Giolito/Robles? I'd take the latter, but I think some here would choose the former.

 

I would much rather have Turner/Giolito/Robles

 

For all intents and purposes Benintendi and Turner are relatively close in prospect value.

 

Robles and Devers are aty a similar stage of developemt and top 20 prospects. Robles is the #2 OF and Devers is the #1 3B prospect.

 

I see a pretty significant gap between Giolito and Kopech though. Kopech has yet to throw more than 65 minor league innings yet. Giolito is very close to being mlb ready. I don't think he will ever be an ace, but he could be a #2 starter if developed properly.

 

 

[iamshack]

100% agree. Sox are pushing for as many of those second tier prospects, while floating some version of the Nationals offer to Boston & Houston in hopes of one of them topping. Washington giving up Turner is simply counterproductive to adding Sale. Their goal is maximize their two year window with Harper and Tuner is an important part of that.

Not sure if it was you, or another poster, but someone pointed out Sale's value in the postseason as something that goes well beyond his in-season WAR.

 

If you know you have to take down the Cubs, who is more important in the postseason, Sale or Turner?

 

Decisions...

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't disagree with you about Turner, I'm just saying I think Hahn and Co are holding out for Turner still. I think if the discussion was about the remaining prospects, and Giolito and Robles were agreed upon, they would have been hammering this thing out last night. The absence of rumors overnight suggests that did not happen.

 

Not quite sure there is as big of a difference between Turner's perceived value and Benintendi's, but you certainly seem to feel as though Benintendi is a possible get while Turner is not.

 

Is there really a huge difference between a package of Benintendi/Devers/Kopech and Turner/Giolito/Robles? I'd take the latter, but I think some here would choose the former.

Kopech is significantly overrated IMO. He's got great, great stuff, but he's not a premium prospect at this point like the other guys you listed. I think that Nationals offer is in a completely different league.

[brett05]

Not a bad package by any means, and may end up being the best we can get, but just wish it was mainly position players. I have faith in the Sox developing pitching...we need bats!

This a million times over. We are outright abysmal at producing hitters.

[bighurt574]

Washington isn't just going to throw in Turner on top of Giolito and Robles.

 

They're not going to trade the guy period, but even if they did, the rest of the deal would diminish significantly.

 

Hope BOS/HOU step up too. Giolito and Robles are solid headliners but a SP and a years-away CF isn't exactly what we need.

Edited December 6, 2016 by bighurt574

[Buehrle>Wood]

new fangraphs article on Giolito.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-the-nat...-lucas-giolito/

Well that was uninspiring for him

[RockRaines]

Giolito and Robles or its equivalent will be there for Sale months from now. 0 reason to rush into that on the first day of the winter meetings.

Yep. The Sox for one of the first times ever have no reason to move now or cave. WE hold literally all the cards.

[OmarComing25]

I don't disagree with you about Turner, I'm just saying I think Hahn and Co are holding out for Turner still. I think if the discussion was about the remaining prospects, and Giolito and Robles were agreed upon, they would have been hammering this thing out last night. The absence of rumors overnight suggests that did not happen.

 

Not quite sure there is as big of a difference between Turner's perceived value and Benintendi's, but you certainly seem to feel as though Benintendi is a possible get while Turner is not.

 

Is there really a huge difference between a package of Benintendi/Devers/Kopech and Turner/Giolito/Robles? I'd take the latter, but I think some here would choose the former.

I think the Nationals package is better and it's not close. Giolito/Robles >>>> than Devers/Kopech.

[southsider2k5]

These two posts express my sentiment, without the cursing.

 

With prospects, there is still a clear and present danger of busting out, or of injuries stopping a career before it gets going. (Especially, given what we've seen in the Nats two prospects.) Thus, a premium would have to be paid in order to get the proven product.

 

That aside, if I were a Nats fan, I would be stoked about robbing the stupid white sox if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

I'll fully admit that perhaps I place a greater importance on a prospect's numbers than I should. But then, we've all seen top 10 prospects bust out; these rankings are subjective, and for that, I believe we can place too much faith in a prospect's rankng.

 

At some point you have to walk past whatever prejudices you have here, and acknowledge that while rankings are subjective, there is a lot of research and technique to them. There are real skills that can be observed and followed. It isn't subjective in the sense that it is random. It is subjective in the sense that different scouts can look at someone's current ability and get a different read on what their future skills might be. What isn't subjective is that you are talking about a guy who has a 95mph fastball, and a 19 year old kid that universally is regarded as being a potential future star in MLB who might be able to do five things well at the major league level. It also isn't subjective that Washington pushed this kid as hard as the Sox pushed Courtney Hawkins. Stop and think about that for a second. This kid is putting up a solid OPS at a level where he is probably the youngest player in the entire league, or damned close to it.

 

So while you can hand-wave away things and pick the most simple of explanations that fits your mood, you do so by ignoring a wide body of evidence and history that tells a completely different story.

[southsider2k5]

I would still lean towards a package with De Leon and Bellinger as the headliners. i don't know if that is possible at this point but they seem closer to the big leagues. I get the feeling the Dodgers wanted to have Puig be part of the centerpiece of the deal. I still think they have an interest in Sale. Not many times you could put together the two top lefties in the game.

 

There was a rumor out about DeLeon having a shoulder problem.

[username]

I think the Nationals package is better and it's not close. Giolito/Robles >>>> than Devers/Kopech.

 

Totally agreed. Kopech has a way higher chance of ending up as a reliever, and Devers may not even stick at 3B.

 

I also find the Robles hate amusing. People forget he's already at a higher level (A+ vs A ball) than Benitendi was last year, and he's only 19.

[Balta1701]

new fangraphs article on Giolito.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-the-nat...-lucas-giolito/

 

 

Well that was uninspiring for him

If people truly believe the things they've said about the White Sox being good at developing pitchers, then a guy who has strong stuff but hasn't yet translated that into results would still be an extraordinary get for the White Sox. The question is, do we have confidence in the org turning stuff into pitching?

[southsideirish71]

Hopefully this little episode will prove once and for all the value of a good well stocked farm system. I have seen how posters would rather win a few more games in September and not get a higher draft pick. Two of the players we wanted were gone right before ours and now we are trying to trade for them. I have seen insane posts about how "well the sox cant develop the minors so whats the point". I hope that the sox dump huge amounts of money and talent into their development operations. The key for the sox to have sustained long term success is their minor league operations and scouting. The ability to locate not only guys who will be on the major league roster but also as valuable trading chits later on. In the end Sale is going to be traded due to the failure of the teams ability to keep a pipeline to the majors open with cost effective options. Now we have way to many holes to fill and we need to now swap out something amazing at the major league level to bring back stability for many a position.

 

 

[bmags]

If people truly believe the things they've said about the White Sox being good at developing pitchers, then a guy who has strong stuff but hasn't yet translated that into results would still be an extraordinary get for the White Sox. The question is, do we have confidence in the org turning stuff into pitching?

I will say that scared me. Sox success has been finding different repertoires they can be successful with in the zone, not smoothing out deliveries. Rodon is still our work in progress.

[brett05]

Hopefully this little episode will prove once and for all the value of a good well stocked farm system. I have seen how posters would rather win a few more games in September and not get a higher draft pick. Two of the players we wanted were gone right before ours and now we are trying to trade for them. I have seen insane posts about how "well the sox cant develop the minors so whats the point". I hope that the sox dump huge amounts of money and talent into their development operations. The key for the sox to have sustained long term success is their minor league operations and scouting. The ability to locate not only guys who will be on the major league roster but also as valuable trading chits later on. In the end Sale is going to be traded due to the failure of the teams ability to keep a pipeline to the majors open with cost effective options. Now we have way to many holes to fill and we need to now swap out something amazing at the major league level to bring back stability for many a position.

I think you are right, but if they don't improve scouting and development the trading of Sale will be a major step back organizationally. If we can do both, that is ideal, if it's only one, it has to be to improve the development/scouting first

[KMule2545]

I think the Nationals package is better and it's not close. Giolito/Robles >>>> than Devers/Kopech.

 

I'm on the other end of this. While I absolutely love Robles' possible defensive value, to me Devers is going to have the more sure thing bat in the Majors. He's got some of the best hit tool/power-potential combo down there. Kopech basically matches Giolito's stuff but without the TJS on his record. Arguments can be made both ways.

 

Omar comin', yo!

Edited December 6, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[iamshack]

I think the Nationals package is better and it's not close. Giolito/Robles >>>> than Devers/Kopech.

Fair enough...perhaps the Nationals' package would need to be adjusted downwards, but the point remains, which has not been addressed...

 

If the framework was truly agreed upon, this thing would be done or close to done.

 

There is no indication of that, which to me, indicates that the Sox are still unwilling to move Sale without someone that has shown success in the major leagues.

[Y2Jimmy0]

We'd all love Turner, Giolito, and Robles. Jesus christ people. Turner was like a 3.5 WAR player last year in 70+ games. He'll be a 5 WAR position player. Sale is a a 5-6 WAR pitcher. Trading Turner to acquire Sale doesn't really do anything for the Nationals. There is no chance that they do that and we'd all be better off not expecting it anymore. Giolito is best pitching prospect (outside of Urias) in baseball. Robles is a legit stud. They need other pieces for sure and I'm guessing would get them. Bregman isn't available. Red Sox seem to be out. You can totally tell who has done research and who just chooses to freak out by just reading this thread.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Anything new on Twitter? It's killing me not having access to it right now.

[bmags]

Anything new on Twitter? It's killing me not having access to it right now.

No. BWAA is requiring voters to release their ballots publicly for HOF vote

[iamshack]

We'd all love Turner, Giolito, and Robles. Jesus christ people. Turner was like a 3.5 WAR player last year in 70+ games. He'll be a 5 WAR position player. Sale is a a 5-6 WAR pitcher. Trading Turner to acquire Sale doesn't really do anything for the Nationals. There is no chance that they do that and we'd all be better off not expecting it anymore. Giolito is best pitching prospect (outside of Urias) in baseball. Robles is a legit stud. They need other pieces for sure and I'm guessing would get them. Bregman isn't available. Red Sox seem to be out. You can totally tell who has done research and who just chooses to freak out by just reading this thread.

I smell what you're stepping in but I just don't think it reflects the belief of our own FO.