Otani to be posted in 2017 Offseason

[Y2Jimmy0]

This is what I posted in the other thread regarding the new rules:

 

 

Here's the Baseball America (paywall) explanation from Ben Badler: http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...hyAyO7IBYWtT.97

 

Clubs either get $5.75, $5.25, or $4.75 million to spend on international prospects under 25 per year. Teams can trade all of their bonus amounts but can only acquire 75% of their bonus pool in trade. Here are the amounts.

 

$5.75 million

 

Arizona

Baltimore

Cleveland

Colorado

Kansas City

Pittsburgh

St. Louis

San Diego

 

$5.25 million

 

Cincinnati

Miami

Milwaukee

Minnesota

Oakland

Tampa Bay

 

$4.75 million

 

Atlanta

Boston

Chicago Cubs

Chicago White Sox

Detroit

Houston

LA Angels

LA Dodgers

NYM

NYY

Philly

San Francisco

Seattle

Texas

Toronto

Washington

 

Players that cost $10,000 or less don't count against the pool. The following teams can't spend over $300,000 on a player because they are in the penalty from previous years: Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Royals, Athletics, Astros, Braves, Cardinals, Nationals, Padres, and Reds. All of those teams can trade their full amounts however. The White Sox can trade for up to $3.5 million more in international money. This is absolutely something that they should be doing. White Sox can spend $8.3 million internationally if they trade for the maximum that they can. I'll be very curious to see if they do this.

[Bob Sacamano]

This is what I posted in the other thread regarding the new rules:

 

 

Here's the Baseball America (paywall) explanation from Ben Badler: http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...hyAyO7IBYWtT.97

 

Clubs either get $5.75, $5.25, or $4.75 million to spend on international prospects under 25 per year. Teams can trade all of their bonus amounts but can only acquire 75% of their bonus pool in trade. Here are the amounts.

 

$5.75 million

 

Arizona

Baltimore

Cleveland

Colorado

Kansas City

Pittsburgh

St. Louis

San Diego

 

$5.25 million

 

Cincinnati

Miami

Milwaukee

Minnesota

Oakland

Tampa Bay

 

$4.75 million

 

Atlanta

Boston

Chicago Cubs

Chicago White Sox

Detroit

Houston

LA Angels

LA Dodgers

NYM

NYY

Philly

San Francisco

Seattle

Texas

Toronto

Washington

 

Players that cost $10,000 or less don't count against the pool. The following teams can't spend over $300,000 on a player because they are in the penalty from previous years: Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Royals, Athletics, Astros, Braves, Cardinals, Nationals, Padres, and Reds. All of those teams can trade their full amounts however. The White Sox can trade for up to $3.5 million more in international money. This is absolutely something that they should be doing. White Sox can spend $8.3 million internationally if they trade for the maximum that they can. I'll be very curious to see if they do this.

 

I think Hahn is smart enough to pull something like this off but who knows. Very curious indeed.

[GreenSox]

Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount?

Edited December 14, 2016 by GreenSox

[Y2Jimmy0]

Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount?

 

 

No idea but that's probably the only way around it and it will be heavily frowned upon if so.

[Harry Chappas]

This is what I posted in the other thread regarding the new rules:

 

 

Here's the Baseball America (paywall) explanation from Ben Badler: http://www.baseballamerica.com/internation...hyAyO7IBYWtT.97

 

Clubs either get $5.75, $5.25, or $4.75 million to spend on international prospects under 25 per year. Teams can trade all of their bonus amounts but can only acquire 75% of their bonus pool in trade. Here are the amounts.

 

$5.75 million

 

Arizona

Baltimore

Cleveland

Colorado

Kansas City

Pittsburgh

St. Louis

San Diego

 

$5.25 million

 

Cincinnati

Miami

Milwaukee

Minnesota

Oakland

Tampa Bay

 

$4.75 million

 

Atlanta

Boston

Chicago Cubs

Chicago White Sox

Detroit

Houston

LA Angels

LA Dodgers

NYM

NYY

Philly

San Francisco

Seattle

Texas

Toronto

Washington

 

Players that cost $10,000 or less don't count against the pool. The following teams can't spend over $300,000 on a player because they are in the penalty from previous years: Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Royals, Athletics, Astros, Braves, Cardinals, Nationals, Padres, and Reds. All of those teams can trade their full amounts however. The White Sox can trade for up to $3.5 million more in international money. This is absolutely something that they should be doing. White Sox can spend $8.3 million internationally if they trade for the maximum that they can. I'll be very curious to see if they do this.

 

Do they actually trade the funds or just he ability to spend the funds.

 

I still do not see the White Sox spending any more money then they are comfortable with. They do not spend in free agency or internationally and will give nice contracts to players that give them a hometown discount.

 

If this strategy is not changed I see no reason to believe they are going to spend the money doing things differently.

 

This is similar to the Bears in that they spend enough to fulfill the criteria of spending but then short change the organization in other areas.

 

Otani will end up the Yankees, Dodgers, cubs, Giants or Mariners.

 

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount?

 

I don't know. Seems pretty sketchy.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Do they actually trade the funds or just he ability to spend the funds.

 

I still do not see the White Sox spending any more money then they are comfortable with. They do not spend in free agency or internationally and will give nice contracts to players that give them a hometown discount.

 

If this strategy is not changed I see no reason to believe they are going to spend the money doing things differently.

 

This is similar to the Bears in that they spend enough to fulfill the criteria of spending but then short change the organization in other areas.

 

Otani will end up the Yankees, Dodgers, cubs, Giants or Mariners.

 

 

I disagree. Once they were given a draft pool to spend, they've chosen to spend the whole thing and even went over twice. The Sox will no doubt spend the entire $4.75 million they have for international prospects. They should acquire $3.5 million more though.

[Dick Allen]

Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount?

He'd never clear waivers.

 

I think the whole it has nothing to do with money talk will eventually have everything to do with money so if they don't alter the CBA, he will wait the 3 years.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Bob Sacamano]

He'd never clear waivers.

 

I think the whole it has nothing to do with money talk will eventually have everything to do with money so if they don't alter the CBA, he will wait the 3 years.

 

I agree. I don't think we will see him in 2018.

[GreenSox]

He'd never clear waivers.

I think the idea is that the player would be a FA (such as when you don't offer an arb eligible player) and would sign back with the club that released him.

[Dick Allen]

I think the idea is that the player would be a FA (such as when you don't offer an arb eligible player) and would sign back with the club that released him.

There would be no need to DFA him. I do think if some team did this with a pre-agreed second contract, there would be hell to pay. Probably like when the Red Sox juiced the system in LA. Instant free agent, loss of pool money etc. to the team.

[Bob Sacamano]

There would be no need to DFA him. I do think if some team did this with a pre-agreed second contract, there would be hell to pay. Probably like when the Red Sox juiced the system in LA. Instant free agent, loss of pool money etc. to the team.

 

Yeah there's no way it wouldn't have consequences.

[southsider2k5]

Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount?

 

If you DFA someone, they have the option of refusing assignment and becoming a free agent.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah there's no way it wouldn't have consequences.

 

I think the "safest" route to juicing the system would be for Otani to sign a very early extension.

[Con te Giolito]

I think the "safest" route to juicing the system would be for Otani to sign a very early extension.

MLB wouldn't allow it. He'd have to wait at least until his arbitration years.

 

With him especially they are going to be extremely wary of those sorts of tactics.

[southsider2k5]

MLB wouldn't allow it. He'd have to wait at least until his arbitration years.

 

With him especially they are going to be extremely wary of those sorts of tactics.

 

But it is common practice for teams to negotiate extensions with players very early in their careers. In fact I seem to recall a team (Houston maybe) negotiating a long term deal with a player who was still in the minors. As long as a team wasn't stupid enough to put something into writing, it would be pretty straight forward to defend as a common business practice.

[lasttriptotulsa]

But it is common practice for teams to negotiate extensions with players very early in their careers. In fact I seem to recall a team (Houston maybe) negotiating a long term deal with a player who was still in the minors. As long as a team wasn't stupid enough to put something into writing, it would be pretty straight forward to defend as a common business practice.

 

Astros with John Singleton. First extension ever given to a player with no Major League experience.

[Chisoxfn]

Do they actually trade the funds or just he ability to spend the funds.

 

I still do not see the White Sox spending any more money then they are comfortable with. They do not spend in free agency or internationally and will give nice contracts to players that give them a hometown discount.

 

If this strategy is not changed I see no reason to believe they are going to spend the money doing things differently.

 

This is similar to the Bears in that they spend enough to fulfill the criteria of spending but then short change the organization in other areas.

 

Otani will end up the Yankees, Dodgers, cubs, Giants or Mariners.

We just spent $6M on Holland...if that money is in liu of going aggressive internationally, well all I can say is pathetic. Whether we can actually acquire the slots, that is another question, but the cash absolutely shouldn't be an issue (and if it was, we should have allocated the Holland funds on international signings first).

[southsider2k5]

We just spent $6M on Holland...if that money is in liu of going aggressive internationally, well all I can say is pathetic. Whether we can actually acquire the slots, that is another question, but the cash absolutely shouldn't be an issue (and if it was, we should have allocated the Holland funds on international signings first).

 

With the new caps, it really isn't going to work like that anymore. I mean they could spend over this year, but all of the best Latin American talent is signed, so pretty much it would have to come from Cuba or Asia. Who out there is worth signing now that is worth handicapping ourselves for the next two years? I can't think of anyone.

 

Then factor in that when with the new caps, those dollars should buy a whole lot more players than it used to in the next July 2 class.

 

On top of that, this the era the Sox need to be able to sign as many players as possible for each season to load up on talent, instead of punting on two full years worth of international talent in the middle of a rebuild.

[Chisoxfn]

With the new caps, it really isn't going to work like that anymore. I mean they could spend over this year, but all of the best Latin American talent is signed, so pretty much it would have to come from Cuba or Asia. Who out there is worth signing now that is worth handicapping ourselves for the next two years? I can't think of anyone.

 

Then factor in that when with the new caps, those dollars should buy a whole lot more players than it used to in the next July 2 class.

 

On top of that, this the era the Sox need to be able to sign as many players as possible for each season to load up on talent, instead of punting on two full years worth of international talent in the middle of a rebuild.

I am referring to trading for the extra few million that we can acquire and then using the resources. Not going over some soft cap (cause the cap is now hard). The poster I replied to implied that we are too cheap to trade for additional international cap (and spend the couple mill extra bucks on that).

[Y2Jimmy0]

With the new caps, it really isn't going to work like that anymore. I mean they could spend over this year, but all of the best Latin American talent is signed, so pretty much it would have to come from Cuba or Asia. Who out there is worth signing now that is worth handicapping ourselves for the next two years? I can't think of anyone.

 

Then factor in that when with the new caps, those dollars should buy a whole lot more players than it used to in the next July 2 class.

 

On top of that, this the era the Sox need to be able to sign as many players as possible for each season to load up on talent, instead of punting on two full years worth of international talent in the middle of a rebuild.

 

 

The new agreement starts for this next year's class on July 2nd. White Sox have $4.75 million to spend. They can acquire up to another $3.5 million to spend a total of $8.3 million. There are like 10 teams basically out which I documented earlier in the thread. In an interview with Brian last year, Paddy insinuated that they'd be signing a pretty big name pitcher internationally this year. None of the top 30 or anything has even been released yet.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Y2JImmy0

[southsider2k5]

The new agreement starts for this next year's class on July 2nd. White Sox have $4.75 million to spend. They can acquire up to another $3.5 million to spend a total of $8.3 million. There are like 10 teams basically out which I documented earlier in the thread. In an interview with Brian last year, Paddy insinuated that they'd be signing a pretty big name pitcher internationally this year. None of the top 30 or anything has even been released yet.

 

I was using "this year" to refer to July 2 2016 to the end of June 2017. All of the top guys for this year are gone. There really isn't anything to spend on now. Then next year starts the new rules, so we couldn't have "saved" this $6 million for that anyway.

[Eminor3rd]

I think the "safest" route to juicing the system would be for Otani to sign a very early extension.

 

Agreed. It would be difficult for the MLB to cry collusion if he was able to sign an extension after playing for one full season. If that's legal, it becomes very plausible for Otani to "bet on himself" by taking his $9m to come over and prove himself, having made a handshake agreement to discuss a 6-figure extension in that first offseason. Given his age, he would stand to make a ton of money even if he's merely above-average, even if it's still less than he'd have made at the peak of his hype. Viewed through that lense, the rules are then really only a significant piece of negotiating leverage for the signing team.

 

Also, I wonder what the restrictions are on that ~$9m rookie bonus contract. For example, could they still work in a "you cannot send me to arbitration" clause or something similar that would reduce the team's level of control?

Edited December 14, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

Agreed. It would be difficult for the MLB to cry collusion if he was able to sign an extension after playing for one full season. If that's legal, it becomes very plausible for Otani to "bet on himself" by taking his $9m to come over and prove himself, having made a handshake agreement to discuss a 6-figure extension in that first offseason. Given his age, he would stand to make a ton of money even if he's merely above-average, even if it's still less than he'd have made at the peak of his hype. Viewed through that lense, the rules are then really only a significant piece of negotiating leverage for the signing team.

 

Also, I wonder what the restrictions are on that ~$9m rookie bonus contract. For example, could they still work in a "you cannot send me to arbitration" clause or something similar that would reduce the team's level of control?

A poor performance could make it pretty obvious.

 

The entire thing is fascinating. The posting fee is maxed at $20 million. If you want to offer him all your bonus allotment you can't sign anyone on July 2nd, and will have to trade for extra funds. Then you have to make sure his team will post him and he will agree to come over. And the player is probably giving up a ton of money by not waiting, and letting every team have a shot at him. Huge risk he doesn't choose you. Huge reward if he does.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Bob Sacamano]

A poor performance could make it pretty obvious.

 

The entire thing is fascinating. The posting fee is maxed at $20 million. If you want to offer him all your bonus allotment you can't sign anyone on July 2nd, and will have to trade for extra funds. Then you have to make sure his team will post him and he will agree to come over. And the player is probably giving up a ton of money by not waiting, and letting every team have a shot at him. Huge risk he doesn't choose you. Huge reward if he does.

 

Yeah I guess this is a big risk. Watching everyone else sign guys and then Otani doesn't even come over.