Frazier Trade Discussion

[Y2Jimmy0]

If Frazier repeats his 2016 performance, I make a qualifying offer without batting an eye.

 

 

If Frazier has that many bombs at the deadline, he'll be on another team.

[chitownsportsfan]

Those two are attached at the hip.

 

No reason to move Jose right now given that Moncada is critical to the future and it would behoove the Sox to do everything possible to make sure he's in a great state of mind entering this season. Moncada either steps into the bigs this year, holds his own (say coming up in July for a good 250+ PA run) or he stalls and his status as a potential superstar takes a big hit.

[SCCWS]

No reason to move Jose right now given that Moncada is critical to the future and it would behoove the Sox to do everything possible to make sure he's in a great state of mind entering this season. Moncada either steps into the bigs this year, holds his own (say coming up in July for a good 250+ PA run) or he stalls and his status as a potential superstar takes a big hit.

 

I think he needs a full year in AAA on both sides of the ball. He has to return to playing 2nd base this year and unless he has a huge turnaround, he needs another year working on his hitting. Remember he finished last year w Boston in bad shape. He needs to regain his confidence and it could take a while. I think next September is more realistic. A big year in AAA and a July return would be great.

 

[pablo]

No reason to move Jose right now given that Moncada is critical to the future and it would behoove the Sox to do everything possible to make sure he's in a great state of mind entering this season. Moncada either steps into the bigs this year, holds his own (say coming up in July for a good 250+ PA run) or he stalls and his status as a potential superstar takes a big hit.

 

If there is nothing on the table for Jose (now or at the deadline) that Hahn thinks is fair value, then yes, no reason to trade him. But somewhat foolish to hold onto him so he can babysit Moncada for the next few noncompetitive years. Moncada, and all of these prospects for that matter, will have to sink or swim on their own. A good veteran influence is nice, but not at the expense of failing to bring in more quality assets for the rebuild. I hate to use a Cubs example but that is basically what Rizzo had to do at the start of his Cubs career.

[Con te Giolito]

Really the whole rebuild right now hinges on Moncada. I dont like the idea of building a roster that coddles one player, but in this case its imperative that Moncada is given every chance to succeed and become an MVP type player. If he doesn't the hill becomes a lot, lot steeper for the White Sox.

[southsider2k5]

Really the whole rebuild right now hinges on Moncada. I dont like the idea of building a roster that coddles one player, but in this case its imperative that Moncada is given every chance to succeed and become an MVP type player. If he doesn't the hill becomes a lot, lot steeper for the White Sox.

 

If Moncada flops, we are in big time trouble.

[Con te Giolito]

If Moncada flops, we are in big time trouble.

I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. Its not just if Moncada flops the Sox are in trouble, if Moncada is anything less than one of the best 20 or so players in baseball the Sox are in trouble. You need that MVP-type talent in your lineup to win. Look at every playoff team this year. Only the Mets and Giants really lacked an MVP-type player this season (and Posey has been that type of guy historically). The Sox have only one blue chip prospect who has that kind of ceiling, it doesn't look they will be getting one for Quintana and unless they start really unloading players getting one from the 2018 draft is similarly unlikely.

 

So it all falls on the shoulders of Yoan Moncada to be a superstar. I think Collins and Anderson are both going to be good players, maybe if were lucky they'll even find themselves in ASG or two by the time their careers are over, and the Quintana trade should net them a couple more like that. So should the #11 pick. But finding another blue chip guy is a difficult thing to do, and until the Sox have another one its all on Moncada or for someone to just come out of absolutely nowhere and surprise all of us.

 

The flip side is if Moncada does hit his ceiling and the Sox do a reasonably good job developing these pitchers and putting a decent team around him they'll be a team clearly on the rise as early as 2018, if not this year.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[BlackSox13]

If Moncada flops, we are in big time trouble.

Yeah, no kidding! Soxtalk would glow green for the next 10K years from all of the fallout.

[reiks12]

I will be happy if he becomes a 3-4 WAR as long as Kopech reaches his ceiling and one of Basabe or Diaz becomes an above average player.

[steveno89]

I will be happy if he becomes a 3-4 WAR as long as Kopech reaches his ceiling and one of Basabe or Diaz becomes an above average player.

 

That would be a massive trade win for the sox if basabe or Diaz becomes a 55 fv player in the majors

Edited January 31, 2017 by steveno89

[Con te Giolito]

I will be happy if he becomes a 3-4 WAR as long as Kopech reaches his ceiling and one of Basabe or Diaz becomes an above average player.

I'm not sure I would.

 

Red Sox- Ortiz/Betts

Blue Jays- Donaldson

Orioles- Machado

Indians- Lindor

Rangers- Beltre

Nationals- Harper

Mets- exception that proves the rule, though a case the White Sox may be able to emulate...harder to do in the AL though

Cubs- Bryant

Dodgers- Seager

Giants- Posey, historically

 

As you can see the postseason teams all seem to share one major thing in common, they have at least one MVP caliber talent in their lineups. Especially in the AL the road the playoffs becomes much easier if you have that guy, and without him things look much more bleak. I dont know why this is, but it just is.

[harfman77]

No reason to move Jose right now given that Moncada is critical to the future and it would behoove the Sox to do everything possible to make sure he's in a great state of mind entering this season. Moncada either steps into the bigs this year, holds his own (say coming up in July for a good 250+ PA run) or he stalls and his status as a potential superstar takes a big hit.

If his state of mind is so fragile that he is going to bust if Abreu's traded, hes going to bust anyway.

[harfman77]

I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately. Its not just if Moncada flops the Sox are in trouble, if Moncada is anything less than one of the best 20 or so players in baseball the Sox are in trouble. You need that MVP-type talent in your lineup to win. Look at every playoff team this year. Only the Mets and Giants really lacked an MVP-type player this season (and Posey has been that type of guy historically). The Sox have only one blue chip prospect who has that kind of ceiling, it doesn't look they will be getting one for Quintana and unless they start really unloading players getting one from the 2018 draft is similarly unlikely.

 

So it all falls on the shoulders of Yoan Moncada to be a superstar. I think Collins and Anderson are both going to be good players, maybe if were lucky they'll even find themselves in ASG or two by the time their careers are over, and the Quintana trade should net them a couple more like that. So should the #11 pick. But finding another blue chip guy is a difficult thing to do, and until the Sox have another one its all on Moncada or for someone to just come out of absolutely nowhere and surprise all of us.

 

The flip side is if Moncada does hit his ceiling and the Sox do a reasonably good job developing these pitchers and putting a decent team around him they'll be a team clearly on the rise as early as 2018, if not this year.

 

 

It would be great if Moncada turns into a star, but even if he doesn't the Sox approach is going to make them a competitive team. Collins may turn into a LH Paul Goldsmit, heck Joel Booker could develop into an all star player, there are so many variables out there to put so much pressure on one player to be the organizations savior.

 

RH just needs to continue down the path of selling his assets for outstanding returns and not cave on his asking prices. From the Sale trade, he received four guys that have the potential to be above average contributors, and two that could project as all-stars.

 

The Sox need to focus on quantity of quality prospects regardless of positions. When there is a problem with too many really good guys on the 40 man roster, some of that depth can be moved to find the guy that you want Moncada to be.

[Balta1701]

It would be great if Moncada turns into a star, but even if he doesn't the Sox approach is going to make them a competitive team. Collins may turn into a LH Paul Goldsmit, heck Joel Booker could develop into an all star player, there are so many variables out there to put so much pressure on one player to be the organizations savior.

 

RH just needs to continue down the path of selling his assets for outstanding returns and not cave on his asking prices. From the Sale trade, he received four guys that have the potential to be above average contributors, and two that could project as all-stars.

 

The Sox need to focus on quantity of quality prospects regardless of positions. When there is a problem with too many really good guys on the 40 man roster, some of that depth can be moved to find the guy that you want Moncada to be.

Paul Goldschmidt couldn't turn the DBacks into contenders on his own.

 

I think the setup with Moncada is this: if he were to bust or get injured, it is a 2 year setback in rebuilding at the very least. You name guys like Collins, Joel Booker - those are guys who are 2 or more years behind Moncada, who should be tearing up AAA this year and hopefully ready for a brief stint at the end of the season. The other guys will be in A-ball and AA, and if they're up in 2019 that means they were pushed rapidly through levels and you probably expect them to need more big league development time.

 

Hopefully we'll add some more big league ready pieces when Quintana goes, but if Moncada does not become a top of the league player, we will be unlikely to have the ability to find equivalent talent out of our system any time soon. How will we come up with that? 2 ways - wait 2-3 years longer so that other draft picks can work their way through, or....move Rodon and start this again.

[Lip Man 1]

Paul Goldschmidt couldn't turn the DBacks into contenders on his own.

 

I think the setup with Moncada is this: if he were to bust or get injured, it is a 2 year setback in rebuilding at the very least. You name guys like Collins, Joel Booker - those are guys who are 2 or more years behind Moncada, who should be tearing up AAA this year and hopefully ready for a brief stint at the end of the season. The other guys will be in A-ball and AA, and if they're up in 2019 that means they were pushed rapidly through levels and you probably expect them to need more big league development time.

 

Hopefully we'll add some more big league ready pieces when Quintana goes, but if Moncada does not become a top of the league player, we will be unlikely to have the ability to find equivalent talent out of our system any time soon. How will we come up with that? 2 ways - wait 2-3 years longer so that other draft picks can work their way through, or....move Rodon and start this again.

 

I'd be very, very surprised if Rodon isn't moved in a few years. His agent is going to take him to free agency when the time comes and the Sox probably (unless their is new ownership in place) aren't going to be willing to meet the price he will be demanding.

 

Mark

[harfman77]

Paul Goldschmidt couldn't turn the DBacks into contenders on his own.

 

I think the setup with Moncada is this: if he were to bust or get injured, it is a 2 year setback in rebuilding at the very least. You name guys like Collins, Joel Booker - those are guys who are 2 or more years behind Moncada, who should be tearing up AAA this year and hopefully ready for a brief stint at the end of the season. The other guys will be in A-ball and AA, and if they're up in 2019 that means they were pushed rapidly through levels and you probably expect them to need more big league development time.

 

Hopefully we'll add some more big league ready pieces when Quintana goes, but if Moncada does not become a top of the league player, we will be unlikely to have the ability to find equivalent talent out of our system any time soon. How will we come up with that? 2 ways - wait 2-3 years longer so that other draft picks can work their way through, or....move Rodon and start this again.

 

I have always felt like this was going to be at least a three year process to begin to become competitive again. Even if Moncada busts out next season, there is not going to be the supporting cast around him to help him out.

 

I also think that Rodon is going to be traded as part of the rebuild process, possibly as early as next winter. There is little to no chance of an extension with him as a Boras client and with the way that I believe the window of contention is going to shape up, he will enter free agency right when the Sox are in the prime of the window of contention with the group they are assembling.

 

I know people feel this team is going to be right in the thick of things as early as next year with the pitching core they are assembling, but the offense is going to be dreadful, probably worse than dreadful. This team is going to lose at least two of its three most productive offensive players after this season, and will be in firm contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

 

I think 2020 is where this team starts being competitive again as Collins, Moncada, Basabe, and hopefully some of the acquisitions from the trades of Rodon and Q are ready to contribute in addition to top draft picks from 2017 and 2018. With hopefully an abundance of SP depth, Hahn can make some deals to fill in the holes in the roster that they aren't able to fill through the draft or in one of the rotation deals.

 

[Bananarchy]

I have always felt like this was going to be at least a three year process to begin to become competitive again. Even if Moncada busts out next season, there is not going to be the supporting cast around him to help him out.

 

I also think that Rodon is going to be traded as part of the rebuild process, possibly as early as next winter. There is little to no chance of an extension with him as a Boras client and with the way that I believe the window of contention is going to shape up, he will enter free agency right when the Sox are in the prime of the window of contention with the group they are assembling.

 

I know people feel this team is going to be right in the thick of things as early as next year with the pitching core they are assembling, but the offense is going to be dreadful, probably worse than dreadful. This team is going to lose at least two of its three most productive offensive players after this season, and will be in firm contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

 

I think 2020 is where this team starts being competitive again as Collins, Moncada, Basabe, and hopefully some of the acquisitions from the trades of Rodon and Q are ready to contribute in addition to top draft picks from 2017 and 2018. With hopefully an abundance of SP depth, Hahn can make some deals to fill in the holes in the roster that they aren't able to fill through the draft or in one of the rotation deals.

You make an interesting point about Rodon, but the Sox have the luxury of "wait and see" when it comes to his development.

[Balta1701]

I have always felt like this was going to be at least a three year process to begin to become competitive again. Even if Moncada busts out next season, there is not going to be the supporting cast around him to help him out.

 

I also think that Rodon is going to be traded as part of the rebuild process, possibly as early as next winter. There is little to no chance of an extension with him as a Boras client and with the way that I believe the window of contention is going to shape up, he will enter free agency right when the Sox are in the prime of the window of contention with the group they are assembling.

 

I know people feel this team is going to be right in the thick of things as early as next year with the pitching core they are assembling, but the offense is going to be dreadful, probably worse than dreadful. This team is going to lose at least two of its three most productive offensive players after this season, and will be in firm contention for the #1 overall pick in 2019.

 

I think 2020 is where this team starts being competitive again as Collins, Moncada, Basabe, and hopefully some of the acquisitions from the trades of Rodon and Q are ready to contribute in addition to top draft picks from 2017 and 2018. With hopefully an abundance of SP depth, Hahn can make some deals to fill in the holes in the roster that they aren't able to fill through the draft or in one of the rotation deals.

I think it's a 3 year process if Moncada is a hit.

 

If the White Sox were starting from scratch, without getting what they got back for Sale and with as talent barren as this organization was top to bottom, I'd have said it was a 5 year process. It might darn well be that for the Padres. If the White Sox miss on Moncada, that turns this into a 5 year process.

[BlackSox13]

I'd be very, very surprised if Rodon isn't moved in a few years. His agent is going to take him to free agency when the time comes and the Sox probably (unless their is new ownership in place) aren't going to be willing to meet the price he will be demanding.

 

Mark

I feel the same way. If Rodon comes close to his ceiling he will absolutely go to FA and Boris isn't known for signing extensions with his most talented clients so IMHO that's out of the question. This could be one reason why the Sox are trying to load up on pitching. Here's the way things could go down over the next few year's and what I could be the Sox approach.

 

The Sox get their haul for Q which will likely add another high ceiling starting pitching prospect. Add that prospect to the list of Giolito, Lopez, Fulmer, Kopech, Hansen and that's alot of talent with some high ceilings. Each of those pitchers comes with a question mark or two but I think Giolito and Lopez stick as starters, Fulmer and Kopech are more of the wait and see approach. With the Sox rebuilding they give Hansen the chance to determine his own fate and not force anything. That said, I feel Hansen moves quickly over the next few years with, IMHO, potential to become a high end pitching prospect similar to what Glasnow is now. I think Hansen sticks as a starter when the time comes. I do admit I'm rather high on him . The variable in all this is the starting pitching prospect from the Q deal so it's hard to guess anything other than the Sox clearly desire another top starting pitching prospect.

 

If things work out I think it's quite possible the Sox look to move Rodon during the '18/'19 off season for a haul that could replenish the farm or for MLB position player(s) to fill in a gap or two in the starting lineup. Both are nice options to have.

 

Just a reminder that this is all best case scenario and could certainly turn out differently. The Sox good history with pitching leads me to think things will work out for the better and not the worse.

Edited January 31, 2017 by BlackSox13

[bighurt574]

Whether guys like Moncada are a hit or not, we still need to do a better job in the draft (and development), especially position players. Otherwise, we're right back where we were this year -- with a few really valuable pieces but not much beyond that to build a real team.

[ptatc]

Frazier was interviewed on MLB network earlier today. He was asked twice about the two big trades of Sale and eaton this past offseason. Both times his replies were that Sale is a great ballplayer and the team will miss him but they got some really good players for him to get younger and better. Not once did he even mention Eaton so I think it's safe to say what he thought of Eaton.

[BlackSox13]

Frazier was interviewed on MLB network earlier today. He was asked twice about the two big trades of Sale and eaton this past offseason. Both times his replies were that Sale is a great ballplayer and the team will miss him but they got some really good players for him to get younger and better. Not once did he even mention Eaton so I think it's safe to say what he thought of Eaton.

Wouldn't inciting a conspiracy be against the board rules? There's no doubt in my mind that Frazier and Eaton are still besties so please stop with the NASCAR circular logic.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[steveno89]

I feel the same way. If Rodon comes close to his ceiling he will absolutely go to FA and Boris isn't known for signing extensions with his most talented clients so IMHO that's out of the question. This could be one reason why the Sox are trying to load up on pitching. Here's the way things could go down over the next few year's and what I could be the Sox approach.

 

The Sox get their haul for Q which will likely add another high ceiling starting pitching prospect. Add that prospect to the list of Giolito, Lopez, Fulmer, Kopech, Hansen and that's alot of talent with some high ceilings. Each of those pitchers comes with a question mark or two but I think Giolito and Lopez stick as starters, Fulmer and Kopech are more of the wait and see approach. With the Sox rebuilding they give Hansen the chance to determine his own fate and not force anything. That said, I feel Hansen moves quickly over the next few years with, IMHO, potential to become a high end pitching prospect similar to what Glasnow is now. I think Hansen sticks as a starter when the time comes. I do admit I'm rather high on him . The variable in all this is the starting pitching prospect from the Q deal so it's hard to guess anything other than the Sox clearly desire another top starting pitching prospect.

 

If things work out I think it's quite possible the Sox look to move Rodon during the '18/'19 off season for a haul that could replenish the farm or for MLB position player(s) to fill in a gap or two in the starting lineup. Both are nice options to have.

 

Just a reminder that this is all best case scenario and could certainly turn out differently. The Sox good history with pitching leads me to think things will work out for the better and not the worse.

 

It's early to speculate on Rodon seeing is that he is under team control for 5 more seasons. If he is pitching well and the team is ready to contend then we absolutely will keep him around.

 

We could shop him, but I think the Sox want to get back to contending sooner, rather than later

[ptatc]

It's early to speculate on Rodon seeing is that he is under team control for 5 more seasons. If he is pitching well and the team is ready to contend then we absolutely will keep him around.

 

We could shop him, but I think the Sox want to get back to contending sooner, rather than later

I highly doubt it. I don't think boras will allow any type of hometown discount which is what the sox have a history of doing with pitchers.

[Bob Sacamano]

I highly doubt it. I don't think boras will allow any type of hometown discount which is what the sox have a history of doing with pitchers.

 

I think he meant "keep him around" as in through his current control, not necessarily extend him.