Frazier Trade Discussion

[ptatc]

I think he meant "keep him around" as in through his current control, not necessarily extend him.

Got it. That makes sense.

[BlackSox13]

It's early to speculate on Rodon seeing is that he is under team control for 5 more seasons. If he is pitching well and the team is ready to contend then we absolutely will keep him around.

 

We could shop him, but I think the Sox want to get back to contending sooner, rather than later

Depends. Have to wait and see how the Sox pitching develops over the next few years. The Sox look to me like they are trying to build a steady flow of pitching working up towards the major league club so if some pitchers hit their ceilings Rodon could become one those pitching assets a team trades to fill a few holes in the lineup. It's just a nice option to have if the lineup needs a few finishing touches to be a contender in '19/'20. But if they need to keep him around to be the ace of a perennial contender for his last few seasons, there's nothing wrong with riding that horse all the way to FA.

[GreenSox]

Really the whole rebuild right now hinges on Moncada. I dont like the idea of building a roster that coddles one player, but in this case its imperative that Moncada is given every chance to succeed and become an MVP type player. If he doesn't the hill becomes a lot, lot steeper for the White Sox.

I didn't see any superstar Royal position players in 14-15 nor Indians in 2016.

The Sox had a superstar pitcher and couldn't do a thing with him.

Just get solid at every position and above average on at least half of them. The Sox won 78 games with solid at about 1/2 (or less) of the positions and above average at 3 or 4.

[Dick Allen]

I didn't see any superstar Royal position players in 14-15 nor Indians in 2016.

The Sox had a superstar pitcher and couldn't do a thing with him.

Just get solid at every position and above average on at least half of them. The Sox won 78 games with solid at about 1/2 (or less) of the positions and above average at 3 or 4.

Might want to check again.

[Two-Gun Pete]

It would be great if Moncada turns into a star, but even if he doesn't the Sox approach is going to make them a competitive team.

 

I don't know I we can say this with 100% certainty, at least not yet. There are questions about some of these prospects, and there are questions about some of the young players already in the roster.

 

I think its been a good START to a rebuild, but a lot of things still have to go right.

 

RH just needs to continue down the path of selling his assets for outstanding returns and not cave on his asking prices.

 

The Sox need to focus on quantity of quality prospects regardless of positions. When there is a problem with too many really good guys on the 40 man roster, some of that depth can be moved to find the guy that you want Moncada to be.

While I agree that Hahn should not reduce his asking prices for the vets he may trade away, I think that he's got to land some more position player prospects in trade. Otherwise, we're right back where we were, with an inept lineup preventing a solid pitching staff from competing.

 

Moreover, having an abject lack of depth in position player prospects created a market inefficiency that lead to desperate trades, signings, and a virtual lost decade+ since '05. Without some additional depth added NOW, we could be headed right back into that same place as then.

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

Moreover, having an abject lack of depth in position player prospects created a market inefficiency that lead to desperate trades, signings, and a virtual lost decade+ since '05. Without some additional depth added NOW, we could be headed right back into that same place as then.

I don't foresee a situation where any outcome of this rebuild could possibly result in something that could take us " right back into that same place as then". By "then" I presume you mean a scenario where we find the Sox with a core that looks very similar to the one Hahn is currently selling off, one that a series of "desperate trades" and "signings" orchestrated by Hahn, Williams and Reinsdorf in the past several years failed to turn into a championship-caliber ball club.

 

The back end of this rebuild is somewhere between three and five years from now. Mr. Reinsdorf turns 81 years old this month, so it's not too difficult to align the timing of the end of the rebuild in the next 3-5 years with a change in ownership. That would be ideal - for Hahn to build a solid core in the next few years that could be handed off to a new ownership group, one with deeper pockets than the current group who would be looking to make an immediate impact by augmenting a solid young core by going outside and acquiring high-level talent available in the market at that time. That was the unfortunate problem during the past several years - the attempt to "catch lightning in a bottle" by augmentation through dumpster diving signings.

 

To put it another way, and to use the analogy Mr. Reinsdorf used way back when he relieved Larry Himes of his duties, let's hope Hahn spends the next few years getting us from Point A to Point B, and then hand it all off to a new owner with a different strategic approach who can successfully get us to Point C, in a sustainable fashion that has managed to elude Mr. Reinsdorf for nearly four decades now.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Thad Bosley

[tray]

I don't foresee a situation where any outcome of this rebuild could possibly result in something that could take us " right back into that same place as then". By "then" I presume you mean a scenario where we find the Sox with a core that looks very similar to the one Hahn is currently selling off, one that a series of "desperate trades" and "signings" orchestrated by Hahn, Williams and Reinsdorf in the past several years failed to turn into a championship-caliber ball club.

 

The back end of this rebuild is somewhere between three and five years from now. Mr. Reinsdorf turns 81 years old this month, so it's not too difficult to align the timing of the end of the rebuild in the next 3-5 years with a change in ownership. That would be ideal - for Hahn to build a solid core in the next few years that could be handed off to a new ownership group, one with deeper pockets than the current group who would be looking to make an immediate impact by augmenting a solid young core by going outside and acquiring high-level talent available in the market at that time. That was the unfortunate problem during the past several years - the attempt to "catch lightning in a bottle" by augmentation through dumpster diving signings.

 

To put it another way, and to use the analogy Mr. Reinsdorf used way back when he relieved Larry Himes of his duties, let's hope Hahn spends the next few years getting us from Point A to Point B, and then hand it all off to a new owner with a different strategic approach who can successfully get us to Point C, in a sustainable fashion that has managed to elude Mr. Reinsdorf for nearly four decades now.

 

I disagree with all of that ^

[elrockinMT]

Why do we even field a team? Think positive folks

[Thad Bosley]

I disagree with all of that ^

Which parts in particular? The part where I say Reinsdorf is turning 81 this month? Well, that's a statement of fact - you can look it up yourself!

 

The part where I say the rebuild will take 3-5 years? Seems to be the prevailing feeling amongst most about the duration of the endeavor, but I could be wrong. Could take shorter, could take longer, but 3-5 years is probably a good ballpark guess.

 

Is it where I hoped Rick Hahn would continue his current efforts to get us from Point A to Point B? I think if he stays the current course he can and will get us to Point B. Do you dispute the notion we are at Point A right now? Seems like that fact goes hand-in-hand with the need for a rebuild in the first place.

 

Or do you take exception with my lack of confidence with the ownership/management team that has failed miserably for over a decade now to get several teams that were at Point B to Point C, if and when they get the current team to Point B? Well, feel free to have faith in that part happening, but with the past eleven years still fresh in my memory, my preference is strongly in favor of a new group to come in and try a whole new approach in turning a team with a solid core into one capable of sustainable success. But that's just me.....

[Two-Gun Pete]

I don't foresee a situation where any outcome of this rebuild could possibly result in something that could take us " right back into that same place as then". By "then" I presume you mean a scenario where we find the Sox with a core that looks very similar to the one Hahn is currently selling off, one that a series of "desperate trades" and "signings" orchestrated by Hahn, Williams and Reinsdorf in the past several years failed to turn into a championship-caliber ball club.

Without any depth in quality on the player position side, and a relatively strong pitching staff, the team could look very much like the one that Hahn is trying to sell off. God forbid if Anderson's low OBP tendencies continue, or if Moncada busts. Because should either of these things occur (however unlikely you may believe them to be), the team would look a lot like it was prior to this recent turn of strategies.

 

On balance, I'm not at all concerned that Q is still here. I support Hahn not dropping his price, and I agree that the centrepiece of a trade of Q must be a highly-regarded position player, regardless of position. Trading for more pitching is a fool's errand, because we've all seen how that movie ends.

[tray]

Nick Confardo of the Boston Globe mentioned that the Red Sox would be a good landing spot for Frazier. I'm not sure Rafael Devers would be what the Sox are looking for, since they have Zack Collins who might project better and the Sox could also potentially be in play for Severino from the Nationals.

[Bob Sacamano]

Nick Confardo of the Boston Globe mentioned that the Red Sox would be a good landing spot for Frazier. I'm not sure Rafael Devers would be what the Sox are looking for, since they have Zack Collins who might project better and the Sox could also potentially be in play for Severino from the Nationals.

 

Devers isn't a catcher and no way would he be on the table in a deal for Frazier. And I think they're saying if Pablo doesn't pan out at third and they want someone other than Brock Holt.

Edited February 21, 2017 by soxfan2014

[heirdog]

Nick Confardo of the Boston Globe mentioned that the Red Sox would be a good landing spot for Frazier. I'm not sure Rafael Devers would be what the Sox are looking for, since they have Zack Collins who might project better and the Sox could also potentially be in play for Severino from the Nationals.

 

Devers is a 3B not a catcher and if we could land him for Frazier, we would have done it already.

[SoxAce]

Nick Confardo of the Boston Globe mentioned that the Red Sox would be a good landing spot for Frazier. I'm not sure Rafael Devers would be what the Sox are looking for, since they have Zack Collins who might project better and the Sox could also potentially be in play for Severino from the Nationals.

 

They didn't want to include him for Chris Sale and he's a 3rd baseman. There's not a chance we can get him for Todd freaking Frazier.

[southsider2k5]

They didn't want to include him for Chris Sale and he's a 3rd baseman. There's not a chance we can get him for Todd freaking Frazier.

 

To be clear, they didn't want to include Devers after including Moncada AND Kopech. I am sure if the Sox had asked for him as a headliner for Sale, they would have had him.

[SoxAce]

To be clear, they didn't want to include Devers after including Moncada AND Kopech. I am sure if the Sox had asked for him as a headliner for Sale, they would have had him.

 

Obviously. But yea, Moncada was their top prospect. They didn't wanna give the sox another infielder (3B at that) to completely gut their options in the future.

[southsider2k5]

Obviously. But yea, Moncada was their top prospect. They didn't wanna give the sox another infielder (3B at that) to completely gut their options in the future.

 

And to go a step further, I see zero chance that Devers is on the table for Frazier, unless Frazier just goes nuts to start the season.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Rafael Devers would have no place in trade conversations for Frazier.

Not even if the White Sox took on Sandoval's entire salary?

[southsider2k5]

Not even if the White Sox took on Sandoval's entire salary?

 

Why dabble in things that have no bearing on reality?

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Why dabble in things that have no bearing on reality?

What?

[southsider2k5]

What?

 

There is quite literally a zero chance that the White Sox take on all of Pablo Sandoval's salary.

[steveno89]

There is quite literally a zero chance that the White Sox take on all of Pablo Sandoval's salary.

 

Why would the Sox take on roughly 60 million in remaining salary? That would make little sense, even if a top prospect was attached

 

Frazier's trade value is close to non existent at this point. Our best bet is for him to bounce back and have a strong first half

[tray]

Sorry for my awkward sentence implying that Devers was a catcher, and the broken link about Devers. I'll try that again without using the link tool:

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/po...-red-sox-system

[harfman77]

Why would the Sox take on roughly 60 million in remaining salary? That would make little sense, even if a top prospect was attached

 

Frazier's trade value is close to non existent at this point. Our best bet is for him to bounce back and have a strong first half

 

Thats not really true. Frazier still carries significant value, the issue in dealing Frazier is that there is no market for him at this point. Almost all the contenders have legitimate 3B candidates already and there aren't any non-contenders that are interested in giving up anything of value for a one year rental.

 

For a market for Frazier to develop, you would need the Braves to be a legit contender in the NL East, Sandoval to get hurt/or permanently moved to 1B/DH, Johnny Peralta to get traded/released or the Yankees to find themselves in contention. Other than that, there just aren't any viable places for him to land. Given the positions of each of those teams, they are going to go into the season with what they have and find out where they are when the summer rolls around. Thats when they will start to feel comfortable about giving up assets for a one year rental.

[southsider2k5]

Thats not really true. Frazier still carries significant value, the issue in dealing Frazier is that there is no market for him at this point. Almost all the contenders have legitimate 3B candidates already and there aren't any non-contenders that are interested in giving up anything of value for a one year rental.

 

For a market for Frazier to develop, you would need the Braves to be a legit contender in the NL East, Sandoval to get hurt/or permanently moved to 1B/DH, Johnny Peralta to get traded/released or the Yankees to find themselves in contention. Other than that, there just aren't any viable places for him to land. Given the positions of each of those teams, they are going to go into the season with what they have and find out where they are when the summer rolls around. Thats when they will start to feel comfortable about giving up assets for a one year rental.

 

With the contract he has for this year, and the free agency in the distance after this season, he really doesn't have any trade value.