Quintana Rumors: Round and round and round we go

[ptatc]

I actually disagree.

 

Quintana posted the 4th best WAR in the American League. We wisely held out for an excellent return in exchange for Sale, why should we settle on Quintana?

 

Judge's value is down in my opinion. He will be 25 years old this season and strikes out at a concerning rate. He struck out 44% of the time in 27 major league games. I might overlook this small sample size more if Judge were 20/21/22 years old, but at 25 years old it is more concerning. He will only ever be average at best defensively, likely regressing quickly due to his huge size. I don't like him as a fit.

 

Wilkerman posted a .539 OPS in rookie ball. Yes, he is young for the level, but it shows how far he is away from sniffing the mlb level...if ever

Most people in baseball realize that the abstract concept of WAR, while valuable, is not the only way to value a pitcher. Most also realize that Q while a very good pitcher, is not the 4th best in baseball.

 

However, the White sox will stick to this point as well because they really only wanted to trade Sale not Q. Thus we will hear from the Fo that they didn't deal Q because they couldn't get value for him.

 

IMHO.

[Dam8610]

Most people in baseball realize that the abstract concept of WAR, while valuable, is not the only way to value a pitcher. Most also realize that Q while a very good pitcher, is not the 4th best in baseball.

 

However, the White sox will stick to this point as well because they really only wanted to trade Sale not Q. Thus we will hear from the Fo that they didn't deal Q because they couldn't get value for him.

 

IMHO.

 

4th best in AL =/= 4th best in baseball. He's still Top 10, though, and I doubt many would deny that.

[steveno89]

Most people in baseball realize that the abstract concept of WAR, while valuable, is not the only way to value a pitcher. Most also realize that Q while a very good pitcher, is not the 4th best in baseball.

 

However, the White sox will stick to this point as well because they really only wanted to trade Sale not Q. Thus we will hear from the Fo that they didn't deal Q because they couldn't get value for him.

 

IMHO.

 

I'm not suggesting war is the be all, end all to evaluate a player, but rather to illustrate how valuable he really is.

 

I highly doubt a deal with New York gets done. I'm surprised we have not heard more Rockies rumors. They can't go into this season with their current pitching staff and expect to contend for the NFL west

[ptatc]

4th best in AL =/= 4th best in baseball. He's still Top 10, though, and I doubt many would deny that.

Probably.

[FLsouthsider]

I just like the idea of raiding a team's farm system in exchange for a guy that they cut five years ago.

[hi8is]

I just like the idea of raiding a team's farm system in exchange for a guy that they cut five years ago.

Yup

 

Regardless, I hope hahn is telling teams that the price goes UP if he's traded in July.

[ptatc]

I'm not suggesting war is the be all, end all to evaluate a player, but rather to illustrate how valuable he really is.

 

I highly doubt a deal with New York gets done. I'm surprised we have not heard more Rockies rumors. They can't go into this season with their current pitching staff and expect to contend for the NFL west

 

Don't think they have the size to compete with the Raiders

 

My point was that i don't think the GM's in MLB value him that high thus the Sox will not get the return that value justifies and no trade will happen.

[steveno89]

Don't think they have the size to compete with the Raiders

 

My point was that i don't think the GM's in MLB value him that high thus the Sox will not get the return that value justifies and no trade will happen.

 

If the sox don't get what they want them keep him. He will still have lots of value at the deadline and next off-season

[Con te Giolito]

If the sox don't get what they want them keep him. He will still have lots of value at the deadline and next off-season

Not really. At least not the same level he has now, most teams (especially the Yankees) would rather spend money than prospects on free agents. Next year's free agent class includes the likes of Jake Arrieta, Johnny Cueto and Danny Duffy. You can rant and rave that Quintana is better than all those guys but those guys wont cost valuable prospects.

 

Quintana derives a lot of his current value from being the only really attractive SP option available at the moment. If he doesn't command a trade package you like this year he will almost certainly not next year either.

 

I'm OK keeping Quintana around, but that puts a little more pressure on the rebuild to be nearing completion by opening day 2019.

[harfman77]

A lot of you guys are blood drunk on the Eaton trade, and if Quintana is traded you're setting yourselves up to be really disappointed.

 

Like if the Sox get a Clint Frazier, Aaron Judge and Wilkerman Garcia package for Q will you seriously be upset? Because judging by the demands of two of the top three prospects from the best farm system in baseball you're gonna be devastated by whatever return they get for him. The Red Sox didn't even have to give up two of their top three and they do not have the same caliber system the Yankees have (nor are they as invested in the contributions of their minor leaguers as the Yankees currently are).

 

Yes, I would be very angry with that return, getting back three guys who are not going to be able to hit major league pitching would be a tremendous fail. Judge is built like Adam Dunn, and has power to similar to Dunn and also the extreme swing and miss Dunn had to his game. The difference is that Dunn had a better track record of contact before cracking the majors. Frazier has pitch recognition issues that will make it much more difficult to handle major league breaking balls, and Garcia might as well be Rondon 2.0. That would be an epic fail of a trade. A package from the Yankees starts with Torres, then you can sprinkle in a combination of players to make a deal.

 

I think Torres, Rutherford, Acevedo, and Frecier Perez would be a good deal for both sides. The Yankees have to give up two top 50 prospects, but they are both pretty far away from the majors. Acevedo fits in with the pitching staff that the Sox are putting together as another impact arm, albeit with questions. Perez is a lottery ticket arm.

 

Yes, the Yankees package is going to have to be a little heavier than what the Red Sox gave up because the Red Sox package is closer to the majors and with that carries less risk of busting.

 

 

[harfman77]

Not really. At least not the same level he has now, most teams (especially the Yankees) would rather spend money than prospects on free agents. Next year's free agent class includes the likes of Jake Arrieta, Johnny Cueto and Danny Duffy. You can rant and rave that Quintana is better than all those guys but those guys wont cost valuable prospects.

 

Quintana derives a lot of his current value from being the only really attractive SP option available at the moment. If he doesn't command a trade package you like this year he will almost certainly not next year either.

 

I'm OK keeping Quintana around, but that puts a little more pressure on the rebuild to be nearing completion by opening day 2019.

 

Hes still going to be one of the few attractive options on the market. Yes, Q will cost prospects, but the pitchers you mentioned are going to earn quite a bit more money than what is owed to Q. And with the the new salary cap, teams are going to really desire that cost certainty in relation to performance. The Cubs, Yankees, Dodgers, and Giants are all going to have holes in their rotation and no room under the luxury tax cap to backfill. That makes Q incredibly valuable to teams in that situation, teams that won't be able to fill that need on the open market.

[reiks12]

I would much rather him traded this offseason so that we can close this damn tease of a thread.

 

On a serious note I really want Clint Frazier. Tank next season for Beer and I would be a very happy man.

Edited December 20, 2016 by reiks12

[SoxAce]

Benintendi, Swanson and Bregman are all better prospects than Torres is right now

 

He's damn near there already. Kid is legit man. Scouts are very high on him. Legit tools all around.

[Chicago White Sox]

I would much rather him traded this offseason so that we can close this damn tease of a thread.

Hahn isn't stupid, this market is about as good as it gets for selling starting pitching. I honestly think the Sox & Astros are both holding their ground right now, but one or both of these teams will budge at some point. The reality is there are only so many teams that are desperate for a TOR starter and even fewer that have the assets to get a deal done. At much as we like to believe that Hahn has all the leverage, Luhnow is not going to bid against himself and pay some ridiculous price. The Sox & Astros really need each other IMO and I think both sides will eventually reach a compromise.

[reiks12]

Hahn isn't stupid, this market is about as good as it gets for selling starting pitching. I honestly think the Sox & Astros are both holding their ground right now, but one or both of these teams will budge at some point. The reality is there are only so many teams that are desperate for a TOR starter and even fewer that have the assets to get a deal done. At much as we like to believe that Hahn has all the leverage, Luhnow is not going to bid against himself and pay some ridiculous price. The Sox & Astros really need each other IMO and I think both sides will eventually reach a compromise.

 

I agree. I think the Astros will budge. The rumor they were interested in Duffy.. the leak that the Yankees are interested in Q.. it makes sense someone is trying to gain some leverage.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Yes, I would be very angry with that return, getting back three guys who are not going to be able to hit major league pitching would be a tremendous fail. Judge is built like Adam Dunn, and has power to similar to Dunn and also the extreme swing and miss Dunn had to his game. The difference is that Dunn had a better track record of contact before cracking the majors. Frazier has pitch recognition issues that will make it much more difficult to handle major league breaking balls, and Garcia might as well be Rondon 2.0. That would be an epic fail of a trade. A package from the Yankees starts with Torres, then you can sprinkle in a combination of players to make a deal.

 

I think Torres, Rutherford, Acevedo, and Frecier Perez would be a good deal for both sides. The Yankees have to give up two top 50 prospects, but they are both pretty far away from the majors. Acevedo fits in with the pitching staff that the Sox are putting together as another impact arm, albeit with questions. Perez is a lottery ticket arm.

 

Yes, the Yankees package is going to have to be a little heavier than what the Red Sox gave up because the Red Sox package is closer to the majors and with that carries less risk of busting.

I'd be happy with a return of Torres, Frazier and Judge.

[Con te Giolito]

Yes, I would be very angry with that return, getting back three guys who are not going to be able to hit major league pitching would be a tremendous fail. Judge is built like Adam Dunn, and has power to similar to Dunn and also the extreme swing and miss Dunn had to his game. The difference is that Dunn had a better track record of contact before cracking the majors. Frazier has pitch recognition issues that will make it much more difficult to handle major league breaking balls, and Garcia might as well be Rondon 2.0. That would be an epic fail of a trade. A package from the Yankees starts with Torres, then you can sprinkle in a combination of players to make a deal.

If the Sox plan on going about this rebuild being terrified of guys like Cleluis Rondon and Adam Dunn that didn't work out then they shouldn't even bother. Clint Frazier had near identical BB% and K% in A+ in 2015 as Gleyber Torres did in 2016 at the same level. And say what you will about their issues, but their proximity to the majors is a pretty nice selling point to me, especially when Torres has more value than Judge and Frazier combined (for reasons that I think have more to do with AFL hype than anythng).

 

I think Torres, Rutherford, Acevedo, and Frecier Perez would be a good deal for both sides.

That is a horrible deal for the Yankees. You could maybe get it if Cashman were desperate but the Yankees are not desperate to compete in 2017.

[Chicago White Sox]

I agree. I think the Astros will budge. The rumor they were interested in Duffy.. the leak that the Yankees are interested in Q.. it makes sense someone is trying to gain some leverage.

Yup, the Duffy leak also fills the bill. Hahn & Luhnow are playing poker right and seeing who budges first. I find it almost impossible to believe that in this market Quintana will still be on the Sox's roster come opening day, and at the same time, I find it equally improbable that the Astros enter the 2017 season without adding a legit TOR starter. The pairing just makes too much sense and I think we'll some compromise as we get closer to the new year.

[GGajewski18]

Frazier, Rutherford, Andujar, and Clarkin would be a good haul for me.

[Quin]

He's damn near there already. Kid is legit man. Scouts are very high on him. Legit tools all around.

 

Not being in AAA/MLB keeps him from getting to that status, but he'll definitely be there soon.

 

That being said, that's why I assume he'd be available. A year from now and he'll be like the Bregmans, Benintendis, etc.

[SoxAce]

Not being in AAA/MLB keeps him from getting to that status, but he'll definitely be there soon.

 

That being said, that's why I assume he'd be available. A year from now and he'll be like the Bregmans, Benintendis, etc.

 

That's why I said damn near. Hell, he's already top 10-15 on alot of lists. Let's just say Theo wasn't too thrilled they gave him up.

[Con te Giolito]

The ~rebuilding Yankees may need Quintana more than even the win-now Astros. After 2017 both Sabathia and Pineda are free agents and Tanaka has an opt out that he will almost surely take if he has another good season. The best pitcher on their 25 man right now who they will have control over in 2018 is either Luis Severino or Ivan Nova.

 

Now next years crop of pitching on the free agent market is crazy good. Arrieta, Darvish, Cueto, Tanaka, Duffy and Estrada will all be available plus a bunch of guys like Lance Lynn, (our own) Miguel Gonzalez, Jaime Garcia, Clay Buchholz etc. who could become a lot more desirable with a strong 2017. The Yankees are almost assuredly going to sign one of these guys, if not two or three. However a lot of very rich, very pitching hungry franchises are going to be going hunting for pitching as well and the Yankees still must concern themselves with saving money for the truly monster 2018-19 class. Its not a secret that they want Harper, and they have to balance having enough available payroll for Harper with having a good enough team to lure (a possibly ringless) Harper to New York. Quintana, king of the rotation workhorses on a team friendly deal for another 4 years, would go a long way to alleviating some of the Yankees' long term pitching concerns while barely denting the Yankees payroll.

 

That said its pretty obvious the Yankees plan is to just attack as many postions as possible with prospects and fill in with monster free agents megadeals. As much as they'd like Quintana they would be stupid to sell more than one of their headliners to get him. If anything they'd want to deal from their system depth and for a team like the White Sox that has such a top heavy system that's not a bad match. Five-for-one deals are rare, but I could see it here.

[caulfield12]

Moncada's 20 at-bats and the results of the AFL are getting way too much play here.

Isn't that one of the largest reasons we ended up with Tyler Flowers?

 

Another example, Adam Engel was the best hitter there (average-wise) and he's barely a Top 20 prospect with the Sox now...on the other hand, there's already so much hype around Torres, it's now or never to get a player like that before he repeats it at AA and gets called up at the end of the year.

 

Of course, for any team holding such Top 30ish players, there's the equal danger he tanks like AJ Reed or Gallo and loses a lot of his luster in quick fashion.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'd like Frazier and Judge.

Frazier is build like a brick s***house. Legs like tree trucks and arms all jacked up.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Frazier is build like a brick s***house. Legs like tree trucks and arms all jacked up.

 

"I'm going to PUMP....YOU UP!" LOL