Quintana Rumors: Round and round and round we go

[Chicago White Sox]

This rebuild has hit cult-like proportions, and it has just begun.

I just wish if you are really this strongly against a rebuild, you would tell us what your preferred alternative would be.

[ptatc]

This rebuild has hit cult-like proportions, and it has just begun.

Oh, come on you knew it would. This is the same reason trump and rauner won elections. People just wanted something different. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. But you had to know that once the direction changed, the board would go nuts.

[chisox802]

A 75 win team is not considered competitive at all

 

That puts you at least 12-15 wins away from contention

 

Alright then add 5-6 wins. There you go.

[shipps]

Alright then add 5-6 wins. There you go.

 

Oh so just throw in another 5-6 WAR player.

[southsider2k5]

Oh, come on you knew it would. This is the same reason trump and rauner won elections. People just wanted something different. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. But you had to know that once the direction changed, the board would go nuts.

 

What I didn't expect was that now any talk that there might be the slightest flaw would be met with such religious fervor. In order to question anything, I apparently have to put forth my own entire theory of what I would do, even though it isn't really relevant to what has been done so far, and what to expect because of that in the future.

[Chicago White Sox]

And I think it's way too early to say one way or the other how competive the team will be in 2018. My guess is it will be an ugly year, but we haven't completed our rebuilding efforts. We still have a ton of trade chips to cash in on.

 

Having said that, here's what our opening day 2018 lineup might look like with no other moves:

 

1B: Abreu

2B: Moncada

SS: Anderson

3B: Davidson/Saladino

LF: Coats/Liriano

CF: Tilson/Engel/May

RF: Coats/Liriano

DH: Garcia/Delmonico

C: Navarez

 

That's one ugly f***ing lineup. Most reinforcements currently in the system won't arrive until mid to late 2018. But the key word here is "currently" as we should fully expect a few more positional prospects coming back our way over the next 7 months that can help by the start of 2018. And that also ignores the benefits of free agency and I assume we'll aggressively pursue any international free agents that don't count against the spending caps.

 

Anyways, the point is a lot can change between now and the start of 2018, so there is no point in speaking with absolute certainty at this point. Let's give this a rebuild a bit more time before we overreact too much one way or the other.

[SoxSteve]

Nice twist there. I wasn't complaining. I was addressing the idea that they would be competitive in 2018. They won't. That is the reality here.

OK so we won't be good in 2018. Lets get the high draft pick and compete in 2019. Our record in 2018 won't have any bearing on 2019 success just like the Cubs and Mets losing records in 2014 didn't have any bearing on their 2015 record.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

Remember also that our payroll commitments will be just about zilch, so there could be free agent additions. Just sayin'.

[Whisox05]

This is going to be a long day if there are no rumors lol

[Fantl916]

Just one reset on why everyone wants a rebuild, since I've seen it alluded to several times but never directly said...

 

Several folks have talked about us rostering Beckham Tekotte Reinzo etc in prominent roles as we have tried to compete each year. It will largely be the same in the near term as we strip it down. This is symptomatic of a single issue: organizational depth.

 

What the Cubs astros achieved in their rebuilds is just that. They did luck out and get some stars out of it too, but what can be said about both orgs is that they are loaded too to bottom. This allows them to be strategic in whom they bring up, trade, sign, etc.

 

It also can backfire. The twins are currently struggling to quickly turn it around. The rays, a's, padres are all in meh situations.

 

But what the Sox have to do to avoid pigeon-holing themselves to having to foster below league average guys while trying to win is to build organizational depth. Whether you like it or not, the Sox are trying to address the core (no pun intended) issue.

 

While it doesn't guarantee anything, it could lead to sustained success. For that reason I don't think anyone should be caring about which position we are getting or competing in 17-18. Just root for the best package possible on each deal, support the kids, and trust Hahn to blow a champion slowly.

 

Remember, the best brisket you can find is usually done low and slow . Try to nuke it and that ish dries out (a+ analogy ftw!!!)

[Con te Giolito]

This is going to be a long day if there are no rumors lol

The "Sox have high price and will wait til ST" comments aren't good.

[illinilaw08]

This rebuild has hit cult-like proportions, and it has just begun.

 

SS, I don't really understand your thoughts on the rebuild. I do understand that the product on the field is going to be very difficult to watch for, well, probably all of next year and most of '18 at a minimum. And I understand that the novelty of the rebuild is going to wear off quickly.

 

But the philosophy prior to this year was to try to plug holes around the couple of elite guys and contend. That plan has failed for so very many years in a row, and it showed no signs of being effective prior to the end of Sale's deal. Having a mediocre MLB club, and a bottom 10 farm system is a recipe for sustained mediocrity or worse.

 

I understand your position on the Eaton deal. In a farm system that's basically depleted of position prospects, adding three more plus pitching prospects can be construed as filling the wrong needs. I disagree with that, but I see where you are coming from. But when you make that argument, you ignore the other trade - the one that brought back a consensus top 5 prospect in the game, and for many people the best prospect in the game who is pretty close to MLB ready (conservatively 2018 at the latest), and a second position prospect who, according to the FutureSox thread, is going to show up on MLB's top 100 prospects list this January. The Sale trade brought in two position prospects who slot into the Sox top 3 position prospects overall.

 

Simply put, a rebuild is going to be ugly for a couple years. And if the scouts are wrong, and development doesn't get these guys where they are going, it's going to look really ugly for a lot of years.

 

Going into the '16-'17 offseason, the Sox had no immediate contending window, and no long term contending window. Today, I'd say that if everything goes right, their next window opens in '20 (with the possibility of a surprise WC run in '19) and could extend for several years.

[Leonard Zelig]

Can someone point me toward to Jose Quintana trade thread?

[caulfield12]

You can have whatever you want. I just don't see it as very realistic.

 

 

Neither were the Cubs getting to the NLCS so fast, coming back from 3-1 down in 2016 or Donald Trump winning. Nobody totally believed in those things happening until they actually did.

[Thad Bosley]

This rebuild has hit cult-like proportions, and it has just begun.

Not surprising. Turns out just about everyone is finding that acquiring players like Moncada, Giolito, Kopech and Lopez is far more exciting than the acquisitions you lauded as "surreal" back in February/March, those of Rollins, Jackson, Latos, et al.

[Sleepy Harold]

Can someone point me toward to Jose Quintana trade thread?

I'd like to know where it went as well. I thought it was here but appears I've made a mistake.

[bmags]

Can someone point me toward to Jose Quintana trade thread?

 

I could swear it was here somewhere. I just put it down...

[bmags]

Oh I found the cubs thread though, was that what we were looking for?

[steveno89]

Not surprising. Turns out just about everyone is finding that acquiring players like Moncada, Giolito, Kopech and Lopez is far more exciting than the acquisitions you lauded as "surreal" back in February/March, those of Rollins, Jackson, Latos, et al.

 

We essentially had to rebuild

 

If we did not we would have wasted a prime opportunity to deal players like Sale, Eaton and Quintana (possibly) for considerable returns to jump start the rebuild.

 

A few more seasons of solid drafting, shrewd signings/trades and we set ourselves up to have a much brighter future.

 

Not rebuilding, signing players like Encarnacion and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle would be very foolish. We had a bottom 5 farm system and our future looked shaky prior to the start of the rebuild.

[caulfield12]

Someone please answer this....

 

Other than the Indians, nobody in the AL Central is well-positioned at all for 2018-20 so the overall loss totals won't come as easily as expected after this season unless the first wave has/had an 80% bust rate. Minnesota would have to see incredible turnarounds from Buxton/Berrios/Sano and they still will have to dump Dozier, for example. What team in the Central is better positioned...? To me, it's a no brainer that the Sox have jumped to second with their reboot, with KC and Detroit stuck and Minnesota perpetually unwilling to spend.

 

What other course was realistic or possible coming into this free agent market?

There just aren't many plausible scenarios.

 

Three, we have no choice but to hit this right by 2019 or Hahn/KW will be gone and the team will likely be sold if the media rights deal is a bust. Otoh, with a Trump presidency...the business climate/expectations have increased tremendously, whether I agree with him or not politically. Either way, it's positive one way or the other. The White Sox doomsday scenario of abandoning Chicago feels much less likely today than half a year ago. 80-85% of this board is ready for a new/fresh ownership voice. JR's day came and went to control the sport with Selig.

 

Having spent the better part of eight years being critical...it's a relief to see a light at the end of the tunnel, finally.

Edited December 28, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Neither were the Cubs getting to the NLCS so fast, coming back from 3-1 down in 2016 or Donald Trump winning. Nobody totally believed in those things happening until they actually did.

 

And when we spent half a billion dollars to fill the holes that the rebuild won't, I might start to believe a little harder.

[steveno89]

Someone please answer this....

 

Other than the Indians, nobody in the AL Central is well-positioned at all for 2018-20 so the overall loss totals won't come as easily as expected after this season unless the first wave has/had an 80% bust rate. Minnesota would have to see incredible turnarounds from Buxton/Berrios/Sano and they still will have to dump Dozier, for example. What team in the Central is better positioned...? To me, it's a no brainer that the Sox have jumped to second with their reboot, with KC and Detroit stuck and Minnesota perpetually unwilling to spend.

 

What other course was realistic or possible coming into this free agent market?

There just aren't many plausible scenarios.

 

Three, we have no choice but to hit this right by 2019 or Hahn/KW will be gone and the team will likely be sold if the media rights deal is a bust. Otoh, with a Trump presidency...the business climate/expectations have increased tremendously, whether I agree with him or not politically. Either way, it's positive one way or the other. The White Sox doomsday scenario of abandoning Chicago feels much less likely today than half a year ago. 80-85% of this board is ready for a new/fresh ownership voice. JR's day came and went to control the sport with Selig.

 

Having spent the better part of eight years being critical...it's a relief to see a light at the end of the tunnel, finally.

 

The Twins minor league system is not in awful shape moving forward, but they are not a sure bet to improve (neither are we). Kansas City appears to be exiting its window of contention, Detroit is also exiting its window. Cleveland is in great shape for the future and will be the hill we need to climb.

[caulfield12]

And one legit criticism before returning to Quintana Talk...no overspending on cap limits for Latin American talent.

 

Obvious that pushing the MLB budget once again took priority, but dumb in retrospect.

[southsider2k5]

Not surprising. Turns out just about everyone is finding that acquiring players like Moncada, Giolito, Kopech and Lopez is far more exciting than the acquisitions you lauded as "surreal" back in February/March, those of Rollins, Jackson, Latos, et al.

 

See that's the funny part. Two months ago, this front office should have been fired, and never allowed to work again. People were hoping the owner of this team would die, so that someone else could own the team. The same people who are posting gigantic lists of failed players now somehow believe that this same front office that brought us all of those players can't be questioned unless you have your own fully detailed plan in place to counter it with. The same people that brought us Rollins, Jackson, Latos et al are still the same people in charge. But now I have people telling me that I should not be allowed to question them, otherwise I might hurt somebody's feelings because they won't believe in the rebuild anymore.

 

Literally nothing at the top has changed, but now they can't be questioned, even when fans have unrealistic expectations. Seriously I feel like I have walked into a Scientology convention.

[caulfield12]

The Twins minor league system is not in awful shape moving forward, but they are not a sure bet to improve (neither are we). Kansas City appears to be exiting its window of contention, Detroit is also exiting its window. Cleveland is in great shape for the future and will be the hill we need to climb.

 

But, even there, their budget was stretched by EE and a series of pitching injuries...two starters and Miller, for example...would have the Sox right there in 2018 and definitely 19 if the plan is executed. We already saw it with KC hitting $148 million, despite their two year trend coming into last year. That CLE market, with the second worst media rights deal, seriously hampers them. And most hitters this past decade like EE just lose it fast in their mid 30's.

 

2017 is the only guaranteed terrible year.

Edited December 28, 2016 by caulfield12