Quintana Rumors: Round and round and round we go

[Jerksticks]

The worry with Glasnow remains control. His stuff is serious, his K-rate is serious, but he has one truly substantial issue in that he has more 1 walk every 2 innings or more at basically every one of his minor league stops. That's comparable to Fulmer last year or Rodon as a rookie and almost 3 times the rate of Chris Sale. There's no reason for me to say that he can't improve upon that, but that's because I'm not a major league scout. What I will say is that if you're down on him, it's because your organization believes he will struggle to make progress on that issue. So, there is reason to at least be hesitant on him, if you think that is a problem you can't solve. If you think that's a problem you can solve, go for it.

Exactly. Those that defend Glasnow have absolutely no right to discredit the other opinion on him. The fact is over 5-some years he has never come remotely close to controlling his stuff. Never. Maybe he becomes an effectively wild guy like Zambrano. Maybe he harnesses it. Maybe MLB hitters chew him up some more. Either way, Rick Hahn would be a fool to trade the most valuable pitching asset in baseball for a package headlined by Glasnow. Good job so far Rick.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

It seems to me that the longer this drags on, the more likely it becomes that the Cubs step in. As others have pointed out, the Cubs don't need a lot from their farmhands, and they have potential problems with their rotation and a payroll that could use Q's affordability.

[Balta1701]

Add Giolito and Kopech to the list of pitchers with walk issues. That's what I don't understand why people are down on Glasnow due to his walk rates when we've already been through it with Rodon, going through it now with Fulmer, Giolito had problems in his pro debut and Kopech had problems in the minors.

 

Heck, my concern isn't over Glasnow's walk rates, it more about getting a few solid hitting prospects in any trade for Q. For me, one of Bell or Meadows has to be in the deal with Glasnow.

While Kopech is a fair point, he also has never pitched more than 65 innings if I'm reading this right, and 27 BB in 65 innings for a 19 year old is something I'd call different from 62 walks in 110 innings as a 22 year old even if the rate is only slightly lower. Giolito walked 44 in 110 innings last year, so his BB/9 is about 1/3 lower than Glasnow already, so that's not a particularly good comparison.

[username]

It seems to me that the longer this drags on, the more likely it becomes that the Cubs step in. As others have pointed out, the Cubs don't need a lot from their farmhands, and they have potential problems with their rotation and a payroll that could use Q's affordability.

 

Agreed. I'm honestly shocked they haven't been in much chatter. Both Happ and Eloy Jimenez are effectively blocked for a long time (Zobrist + Baez at 2nd, and Schwarber/Heyward/Almora likely filling at least 2 OF slots).

 

Heck, even Baez doesn't have a full time position right now. And Schwarber probably doesn't have one long-term.

 

Some combination of Happ/Jimenez/Baez/Schwarber makes almost too much sense to not be a real consideration. Cubs are then protected from an Arrieta departure and have insurance for a Lackey decline. Plus Montgomery can then stay in the pen in that valuable swing role.

[Eminor3rd]

Which trade would you accept for Q? Do the other teams accept these deals?

 

Q to the Yankees for Frazier, Rutherford, Kaplielian, and Sands

 

Q to the Braves for Albies, Maitian, Soroka, and Toussaint

 

Q to the Astros for Martes, Tucker, Fisher, and Stubbs

 

Q to the Pirates for Glasnow, Bell, Diaz, and Escobar

 

Probably Yankees, followed by #Barves

[Eminor3rd]

You tell them if they wait, the price increases.

 

If you allow the Pirates the luxury of waiting until June or July to see how their big league team is faring, you take on the risk that Quintana will either injure himself or his performance will degrade, thus affecting his value on the market. To me, a few posters have nailed it on the head - there just is not a lot of real pressure on the Pirates to fork over what the White Sox want right now, particularly if they are looking up at the Cubs and saying "what are the odds..."

 

But let's say they are competing in late June or early July and they need to add SP. Then they come knocking. You are going to let them have the same deal we asked for in the offseason?

 

Maybe you will...but you need to make them believe that if they want to play hardball today, during the offseason, that they should fully expect that we will play hardball with them if they come back at the deadline. You have to at least make them believe there is that threat.

 

For me, if I was Huntington, and I believed in my team, and I really like Quintana, that might just be enough to put me over the edge and just get the deal done now.

 

The price DOESN'T increase, though. Next year's free agent SP class is fantastic, and a bunch of those guys are going to be available at the deadline.

 

You're (all) right that we shouldn't feel the need to move Q for a weak deal, but this is STILL the best opportunity to move him in the foreseeable future, so the goal still absolutely needs to be moving him now. And I'll reiterate again that his "value" has nothing to do with what Chris Sale or other comparable pitchers got in return -- it has to do with how many suitors there are and what those suitors are willing to pay. Every time a guy moves (like Sale) the market changes, because the highest bidder just left the room.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Agreed. I'm honestly shocked they haven't been in much chatter. Both Happ and Eloy Jimenez are effectively blocked for a long time (Zobrist + Baez at 2nd, and Schwarber/Heyward/Almora likely filling at least 2 OF slots).

 

Heck, even Baez doesn't have a full time position right now. And Schwarber probably doesn't have one long-term.

 

Some combination of Happ/Jimenez/Baez/Schwarber makes almost too much sense to not be a real consideration. Cubs are then protected from an Arrieta departure and have insurance for a Lackey decline. Plus Montgomery can then stay in the pen in that valuable swing role.

 

Schwarber isn't going anywhere...the Cubs fanbase is already too attached for them to trade him. Baez? Mehh, doesn't do a whole lot for me. I think an offer would look something like Jimenez, Cease, Candelario + a lotto ticket.

[Bob Sacamano]

The price DOESN'T increase, though. Next year's free agent SP class is fantastic, and a bunch of those guys are going to be available at the deadline.

 

You're (all) right that we shouldn't feel the need to move Q for a weak deal, but this is STILL the best opportunity to move him in the foreseeable future, so the goal still absolutely needs to be moving him now. And I'll reiterate again that his "value" has nothing to do with what Chris Sale or other comparable pitchers got in return -- it has to do with how many suitors there are and what those suitors are willing to pay. Every time a guy moves (like Sale) the market changes, because the highest bidder just left the room.

 

Not necessarily.

[Eminor3rd]

Add Giolito and Kopech to the list of pitchers with walk issues. That's what I don't understand why people are down on Glasnow due to his walk rates when we've already been through it with Rodon, going through it now with Fulmer, Giolito had problems in his pro debut and Kopech had problems in the minors.

 

Heck, my concern isn't over Glasnow's walk rates, it more about getting a few solid hitting prospects in any trade for Q. For me, one of Bell or Meadows has to be in the deal with Glasnow.

 

And Giolito and Kopech were available ONLY because those issues represent serious risk. That's the same issue that's made Glasnow available at all. It doesn't mean he isn't valuable, but if correcting control issues was easy, the Pirates wouldn't even be talking about Quintana because they'd be planning on Glasnow being in their rotation instead.

 

[BlackSox13]

It seems to me that the longer this drags on, the more likely it becomes that the Cubs step in. As others have pointed out, the Cubs don't need a lot from their farmhands, and they have potential problems with their rotation and a payroll that could use Q's affordability.

Wouldn't be surprised if they are keeping tabs on Q. Both teams match up really well for a trade. The only potential sticking point I could see would be the Cubs are probably hoping for Jimenez to be their CF of the future with Schwarber in LF and their team albatross Heyward in RF. So I'd guess they would be reluctant to part with Jimenez but who knows. I really like Happ, Jimenez and Candelario.

 

While Kopech is a fair point, he also has never pitched more than 65 innings if I'm reading this right, and 27 BB in 65 innings for a 19 year old is something I'd call different from 62 walks in 110 innings as a 22 year old even if the rate is only slightly lower. Giolito walked 44 in 110 innings last year, so his BB/9 is about 1/3 lower than Glasnow already, so that's not a particularly good comparison.

I see what youre saying, I'm just looking at walk rates over all. If the Sox do acquire Glasnow, I feel pretty good about his chances because I do trust the Sox eye for young pitching. I give the Sox credit, there were games I thought Rodon was hopeless watching him walk batter after batter but he is much better now and still improving. Rodon, the Sox pitching coaches and training staff are the reasons I'm not concerned about pitchers like Giolito, Kopech, Hansen and Glasnow ( if acquired).

[iamshack]

The worry with Glasnow remains control. His stuff is serious, his K-rate is serious, but he has one truly substantial issue in that he has more 1 walk every 2 innings or more at basically every one of his minor league stops. That's comparable to Fulmer last year or Rodon as a rookie and almost 3 times the rate of Chris Sale. There's no reason for me to say that he can't improve upon that, but that's because I'm not a major league scout. What I will say is that if you're down on him, it's because your organization believes he will struggle to make progress on that issue. So, there is reason to at least be hesitant on him, if you think that is a problem you can't solve. If you think that's a problem you can solve, go for it.

A guy with outstanding stuff and poor control has never been something the White Sox have strayed away from.

 

If the Pirates' offer is Meadows, Glasnow +, I have a hard time believing the deal hasn't been worked out yet.

 

IMO, the Pirates are most likely balking on the first piece.

[Balta1701]

A guy with outstanding stuff and poor control has never been something the White Sox have strayed away from.

 

If the Pirates' offer is Meadows, Glasnow +, I have a hard time believing the deal hasn't been worked out yet.

 

IMO, the Pirates are most likely balking on the first piece.

IF the Pirates put Meadows on the table I think this would be done without Glasnow.

[iamshack]

IF the Pirates put Meadows on the table I think this would be done without Glasnow.

Agreed.

 

 

[iamshack]

The price DOESN'T increase, though. Next year's free agent SP class is fantastic, and a bunch of those guys are going to be available at the deadline.

 

You're (all) right that we shouldn't feel the need to move Q for a weak deal, but this is STILL the best opportunity to move him in the foreseeable future, so the goal still absolutely needs to be moving him now. And I'll reiterate again that his "value" has nothing to do with what Chris Sale or other comparable pitchers got in return -- it has to do with how many suitors there are and what those suitors are willing to pay. Every time a guy moves (like Sale) the market changes, because the highest bidder just left the room.

Isn't that where a lot of Quintana's value lies, though? In his contract? What about next year makes you think that these pitchers aren't going to be commanding deals in the realm of 3 times what Quintana makes?

 

I'll be frank, as long as Quintana continues to perform, I am not concerned with market liquidity, because Q is going to stack up as an outstanding asset no matter how developed or diverse the competition.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

Isn't that where a lot of Quintana's value lies, though? In his contract? What about next year makes you think that these pitchers aren't going to be commanding deals in the realm of 3 times what Quintana makes?

 

I'll be frank, as long as Quintana continues to perform, I am not concerned with market liquidity, because Q is going to stack up as an outstanding asset no matter how developed or diverse the competition.

 

Yes, but the tremendous value in prospects traded can be expressed in dollars as well. At the end of the day, more options means a worse market. Quintana's value also decreases even if he pitches like he did last year, because of a year less control.

 

It isn't that he won't be a good asset next year, but there's no reason to believe that the offers we're getting now aren't the best ones that will ever show up. It's not a certainty, because who knows who else will enter the fray next year, but it is clearly unlikely.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Eminor3rd

[iamshack]

Yes, but the tremendous value in prospects traded can be expressed in dollars as well. At the end of the day, more options means a worse market. Quintana's value also decreases even if he pitches like he did last year, because of a year less control.

 

It isn't that he won't be a good asset next year, but there's no reason to believe that the offers we're getting now aren't the best ones that will ever show up. It's not a certainty, because who knows who else will enter the fray next year, but it is clearly unlikely.

I fully understand what you are saying, but I'm just not sure the market is as precise or disciplined as you might think. I'm not concerned about the extra year of control as much as I just would like us to continue moving forward with this plan. Obviously, the return at this point is more important than the timing, but at some point, you'd like to be able to say "ok, I've moved my three primary pieces and this is what it looks like now that the dust has cleared."

 

I guess we'll just wait and see.

[Chicago White Sox]

From Nick Carfardo of the Boston Globe:

 

3. Jose Quintana, LHP, White Sox — The White Sox are still not getting the right vibe in trade talks on their prize lefty. They have been seeking a return package similar to what they got from Boston in the Chris Sale deal. The Dodgers, Cardinals, Rangers, Phillies, Astros, and Brewers could all make it happen. But right now, things are status quo on that trade front.

 

9. Todd Frazier, 3B, White Sox — While Chicago has received more interest in Jose Abreu, there have been “due diligence” phone calls on Frazier because of his righthanded power. Frazier had 40 homers and 98 RBIs last season. The White Sox would like to move him for a prospect or two, but the fact Frazier can be a free agent after next season may be holding back his market.

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...R0lM/story.html

[flavum]

Ignore Cafardo

[Whisox05]

Ignore Cafardo

 

Not sure why you would ignore cafardo. Hes was one of the few that actually believed boston would try to go after sale when alot of people thought they had enough of a rotation and weren't going to add another starter.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think there was any chance at all both Benintendi and Moncada would have been in play no matter how well the Sox negotiated. I think we did about as well as we could have with Sale.

 

Especially because the talk was that the teams were so far apart that there were no talks at the end of the trade deadline. I think talks would have gone somewhere if those two had both been offered, or at the very least that would have been the starting point this off season.

[southsider2k5]

From Nick Carfardo of the Boston Globe:

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...R0lM/story.html

 

So the Sox aren't getting even a decent prospect or two offered for Frazier. That isn't surprising to me at all./

[GreenSox]

The price DOESN'T increase, though. Next year's free agent SP class is fantastic, and a bunch of those guys are going to be available at the deadline.

 

You're (all) right that we shouldn't feel the need to move Q for a weak deal, but this is STILL the best opportunity to move him in the foreseeable future, so the goal still absolutely needs to be moving him now. And I'll reiterate again that his "value" has nothing to do with what Chris Sale or other comparable pitchers got in return -- it has to do with how many suitors there are and what those suitors are willing to pay. Every time a guy moves (like Sale) the market changes, because the highest bidder just left the room.

+100

Sox need to move him.

[SoCalSox]

A guy with outstanding stuff and poor control has never been something the White Sox have strayed away from.

 

If the Pirates' offer is Meadows, Glasnow +, I have a hard time believing the deal hasn't been worked out yet.

 

IMO, the Pirates are most likely balking on the first piece.

 

This is something the Sox have seemed to covet in their first 2 trades this year, though.

[iamshack]

This is something the Sox have seemed to covet in their first 2 trades this year, though.

That's what I posted. We're on the same page.

[tray]

The Sox will not trade Quintana without that one headliner - an elite position player prospect. I am among those who think the Sox should wait for the phone to ring now, and not trade Q unless and until they get that player.

 

Frazier is in a different category. The Sox might even consider picking up part of his 2017 Contract if they get prospects in return, and those prospects obviously would not be in that elite category. Therefore, that move would mainly be a salary dump, nothing to get too excited about.

 

It could be argued that the rebuild strategy is now beginning to fizzle a bit and that the Sox might not be able to pull off another trade during the off-season for another elite position player prospect. I fear the worst case scenario - that this rebuild could leave the Sox mired in mediocrity for a longer time than most Sox fans want to endure. The time frame for this rebuild has to be a short one. I already see fans growing impatient, wondering what kind of a team is going to be on the field on Opening Day. Fans might say they are patient for a rebuild, but that patience might evaporate if this team becomes the laughing stock in Chicago while the Cubs keep killing it.

Edited January 1, 2017 by miracleon35th