Quintana Rumors: Round and round and round we go

[Con te Giolito]

But for Q, I would prefer that we don't compromise. He's worth someone that has a little less projection required.

Well they compromised for Sale, so they are almost definitely going to compromise some for Quintana.

 

Before trading Sale, and maybe even before trading Eaton, the Sox did always have the option of saying "you know what, we aren't rebuilding, these deals are just not good enough" and other teams would have to buy that threat and up their offers accordingly. Now that any pretenses of competing the next two years are completely gone the Sox have lost a little leverage. That doesn't mean they have to hold onto Quintana because they aren't going to absolutely fleece someone for him, but it does mean they aren't getting Alex Bregman or Julio Urias.

[iamshack]

Sure, current ranking place on top prospect lists, sure. Talent wise, I personally consider them all to be part of the same group of prospects who project to be future all stars. Moncada has already sniffed the Bigs and is near-MLB ready. Obviously he's going to be higher ranking-wise after proving himself at AA and reaching the Majors.

Yeah, but isn't there a pretty huge chasm between a guy that has done it at all levels and a guy who has done it in A-ball?

 

To me, that chasm is the difference between the centerpiece and the secondary piece.

[KMule2545]

Yeah, but isn't there a pretty huge chasm between a guy that has done it at all levels and a guy who has done it in A-ball?

 

To me, that chasm is the difference between the centerpiece and the secondary piece.

 

No doubt. But those guys aren't in abundance/aren't being offered from the sounds of it.

 

[caulfield12]

It feels like we're almost too fixated on the Astros, at the moment.

 

Better to take a step back and take a deep breath. While the Sox have lost some of their "bluffing" leverage (we REALLY need Q to compete this year), they still don't have to trade him, in the sense that finances are close to an issue for the organization.

 

We also know the pieces that come back in June/July are likely to be ones who won't or aren't impacting the major league roster in the heat of a pennant drive.

 

Ideally, we'd be finding pieces that will give us the look/s of the 2014-15 Cubs where everyone in baseball could project what was coming...that gives us back some leverage in the broadcasting rights deal negotiations, which are still arguably even more important than the trade return for Quintana/Jones/Frazier/Robertson.

 

 

[iamshack]

No doubt. But those guys aren't in abundance/aren't being offered from the sounds of it.

Not on December 12, no. Let's give it a few more weeks.

[Boopa1219]

Franklin Perez is currently their #4 prospect according to the Baseball America most recent update.

 

I meant a top ten pitching prospect in all of baseball

[KMule2545]

Not on December 12, no. Let's give it a few more weeks.

 

You gotta get honest with yourself man. 1 of those players were offered for Chris Sale, hitter-wise. Two including the Nats-Sale deal with Giolito that didn't go down (and he's a pitcher - much riskier for the acquiring team). With how teams value prospects these days, there is almost no chance of getting a MLB ready position player elite prospect for Q unless you want to do a 1-for-1 swag for Bregman or someone (which I personally do not - I prefer a depth deal with an equally talented but further along player like the guys we've mentioned). I'm not even sure the Astros would do a Bregman/Q 1-for-1.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Someone will blink...and w 4 years of cheap control, it absolutely will not be the White Sox

 

Absolutely

[thedoctor]

this thread needs a rumor badly.

[RyanSox]

Unless it's Bergman I say we hold

[fathom]

this thread needs a rumor badly.

 

You mean my idea of keeping Q and trading Rodon for Happ and Jimenez?

[Rowand44]

this thread needs a rumor badly.

Quintana straight up for Chris Sale is being discussed.

[bmags]

this thread needs a rumor badly.

 

I miss winter meetings already

[iamshack]

You gotta get honest with yourself man. 1 of those players were offered for Chris Sale, hitter-wise. Two including the Nats-Sale deal with Giolito that didn't go down (and he's a pitcher - much riskier for the acquiring team). With how teams value prospects these days, there is almost no chance of getting a MLB ready position player elite prospect for Q unless you want to do a 1-for-1 swag for Bregman or someone (which I personally do not - I prefer a depth deal with an equally talented but further along player like the guys we've mentioned). I'm not even sure the Astros would do a Bregman/Q 1-for-1.

So both major trades we've done, we received a top prospect back.

 

That is still the asking price for Q as far as I am concerned.

 

As far as getting honest with ourselves...it's been 5 days since we completed those trades. We've got all KINDS of time to keep lying to ourselves, if thats what you think this is.

[caulfield12]

But does Bregman really improve the team's future outlook?

 

How?

 

For this to work, you need to get TWO 3-4+ war players out of a trade (and obviously Moncada has the potential to put up bigger numbers than that)...you can't make 1/1 trades like the examples of Urias, Turner and Bregman and come out on top. It's a numbers game, quality/quantity.

 

For every breakout star you get, you're going to have 10 Gordon Beckham's. Q is consistently putting up those WAR numbers. Imagine if you'd traded him for the likes of Carlos Quentin (after 2008), Puig after 2013, or Abreu after 2014. You'd be kicking yourself. And those are all players who put up MVP type numbers at the major league level, not unproven prospects.

 

The ONLY way this would start to make some sense is if Bregman was going to be a Lindor or Seager level of impact player at SS. But can anyone state this with 100% confidence? Based on?

Edited December 13, 2016 by caulfield12

[Bob Sacamano]

You mean my idea of keeping Q and trading Rodon for Happ and Jimenez?

 

 

Thats not a rumor...

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Honestly, winter meetings should be an all week thing from Sunday to Sunday.

[Polar Bear]

Quintana straight up for Chris Sale is being discussed.

 

 

I would do that trade all day. Man I already miss Sale, but I can't wait for these prospects to step on the field in a Sox uniform.

[Buehrlesque]

I have a hard time projecting 19 year old kids, to be honest with you. I totally downplay that. When you look at all the busts and the risks that could happen, especially with high school talent, its just get so freaking hard. We are trading a guy who is, if not elite, damn near elite, and under cost control for a very long time. I just can't justify it when the best guy we get is 19 with plenty of potential reasons for downside. Hell, he put up a .750 OPS in 2016 and in 63 games in 2015, put up a .647 OPS. No matter how good his tools are and how high of a pick he was, I just can't get that warm and fuzzy behind that piece. Remember, Courtney Hawkins put up a .804 OPS in his initial debut and was loaded with "tools".

 

I do admit we are getting two quality pitchers as well...so I'm downplaying those aspects, but we need some dynamic position talent as well and I just don't really get that excited about the proposed package (because the arms aren't that great that it is worth ignoring "need"...if that makes sense).

 

 

I admittedly am still learning the differences between evaluating prospect talent and mlb regulars.

 

That being said, at some point, potential, particularly with the attrition rate we're seeing for prospects, is not such a holy grail that I am moving my near-elite, rock solid, easy as it gets motion SP for the opportunity of HOPING that Kyle Tucker turns into a player as valuable as the one I am relinquishing.

 

I'm sorry, but 19 year old kids that aren't already dominating a league wherein they are one of the younger players simply cannot be untouchable for a proven player with the value of Jose Quintana.

 

This is just getting out of hand.

Weighing in to say I agree with you guys. I'm not as quick to take on larger risk, more projectability and longer timelines in a return for Quintana. I feel like that is selling him short. Obviously there's going to be risk in trading for any kind of prospect, but with elite quality like Quintana, I feel like the Sox have the luxury of acquiring guys who have higher ceilings and are more developed, something slightly less risky than 19-year-olds.

 

Guys like Moncada, Giolito and Lopez may well bust, but they've proven more already than guys like Tucker, Pint, Maitan and even Robles. Quintana should hold enough value to get guys with that kind of upside that are proven enough to be a notch above risk-wise.

[soxforlife05]

Well they compromised for Sale, so they are almost definitely going to compromise some for Quintana.

 

Before trading Sale, and maybe even before trading Eaton, the Sox did always have the option of saying "you know what, we aren't rebuilding, these deals are just not good enough" and other teams would have to buy that threat and up their offers accordingly. Now that any pretenses of competing the next two years are completely gone the Sox have lost a little leverage. That doesn't mean they have to hold onto Quintana because they aren't going to absolutely fleece someone for him, but it does mean they aren't getting Alex Bregman or Julio Urias.

 

Has nothing to do with leverage with a rebuild. Has much more to do with interest level and immediate need for specific players across all the teams. See the Chapman and Eaton deals. You need a team to do what KW used to do. Get tunnel vision and need "his guy" and do whatever it takes to make it happen.

Edited December 13, 2016 by soxforlife05

[KMule2545]

So both major trades we've done, we received a top prospect back.

 

That is still the asking price for Q as far as I am concerned.

 

As far as getting honest with ourselves...it's been 5 days since we completed those trades. We've got all KINDS of time to keep lying to ourselves, if thats what you think this is.

 

Yeah, I'm sorry but that's what I think this is. I never once said you won't get a top prospect back, but clearly our definitions of top prospect/elite talent are different. There's a difference between a team's top prospects, and BA/MLB/Fangraphs top 10/100 guys. We're definitely going to get a team's top prospects back for Q. You're straight up lying to yourself if you think we're going to get an MLB ready, elite hitting prospect along the lines of Benintendi/Bregman/Swanson etc for Q. You may well get someone as talented (Rodgers, Tucker), but you aren't going to get a hitter that talented + MLB ready - I'll bet you that right now. You like the current rankings so much - the Astros balked at a 3 player trade for Q that involved merely two top 50 guys (30-something and 49?) who aren't MLB ready and a mid rotation MLB ready guy in Musgrove. At best you're going to get two prospects ranked somewhere in the top 50 + other pieces for Q. We'll have fleeced a team if we get two top 50 guys + another top 100 guy or 2 for Q. He is perceived as the far lesser talent than Sale (even though numbers indicate he isn't).

Edited December 13, 2016 by Ro Da Don

[bmags]

Yeah from listening to basically every podcast that mentioned white sox this week (it was awesome) it's clear that though national and baseball guys see Quintana as valuable, they do not see him on same level as Sale. But also all of those people were shocked a Moncada was traded.

 

I think we will get more really good players and I'm hoping for 3 top 50 guys, but I just don't see any team in the hunt that will truly part with an elite hitting prospect in AAA ready to go. I see a possibility with Rodgers. I see a possibility with Tucker.

 

The only place you could find something like that is Texas where you are taking profar + but I honestly don't think Texas has enough.

 

I also say that even though this has limitations, I don't think things will improve that much. We have benefit of the first wave of rebuilding teams near championship contention and willing to deal and 2 wild card teams. Behind them are teams willing to deal with awful farms, and then rebuilding teams. I don't see too many more "on the rise" teams that would be willing to part so soon with talent.

 

Get the best deal and get on with it. I have no doubt we'll get very good talent.

[KMule2545]

Yeah from listening to basically every podcast that mentioned white sox this week (it was awesome) it's clear that though national and baseball guys see Quintana as valuable, they do not see him on same level as Sale. But also all of those people were shocked a Moncada was traded.

 

I think we will get more really good players and I'm hoping for 3 top 50 guys, but I just don't see any team in the hunt that will truly part with an elite hitting prospect in AAA ready to go. I see a possibility with Rodgers. I see a possibility with Tucker.

 

The only place you could find something like that is Texas where you are taking profar + but I honestly don't think Texas has enough.

 

I also say that even though this has limitations, I don't think things will improve that much. We have benefit of the first wave of rebuilding teams near championship contention and willing to deal and 2 wild card teams. Behind them are teams willing to deal with awful farms, and then rebuilding teams. I don't see too many more "on the rise" teams that would be willing to part so soon with talent.

 

Get the best deal and get on with it. I have no doubt we'll get very good talent.

 

Exactly. I have no doubt we will get an acceptable level of talent for Q, I just very much doubt it's going to be a guy ready to contribute in 2017 for the White Sox. If we do get anybody ready to contribute instantly it's going to be your Musgroves of the world and no hitters that are ready, IMO.

[chitownsportsfan]

With the moves already made the idea is clearly "best talent available, timeline secondary". Of course most teams that want these guys are contenders and aren't willing to give up 2017 ready starters, so it's a strategy as much of necessity as preference.

 

That said, Q should have as much value as Sale, he's not as good, but his deal is even better.

Edited December 13, 2016 by chitownsportsfan

[bighurt574]

The regular season value of Sale vs. Q isn't all that different with Q's extra year of control, but the thought of having Sale in your rotation for the postseason is really what makes GM drool and offer up an "untouchable" prospect. Especially if you're already a playoff team looking for that "final piece."

 

In a Q for Bregman swap, if Houston would even do it, you're not going to get much else. Maybe an extra low level prospect or two.