2018 MLB Draft

[Dam8610]

51 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Asserting that Madrigal should not be selected, with the idea of moving him to another position, is not inconsistent with the valid principle of taking the best player available. If they want to select him fine, leave him at the position, for which he is best suited. If it turns out that the Sox have no place for another second baseman, when he is ready to contribute, trade him. If you don't want to trade a young player, whom you drafted at #4, then don't select him.

Many have talked about moving Moncada to third, or Anderson to CF, to accommodate Madrigal, when he's ready. Drafting for need may not be a good practice, but "needing" to mess with the core of a young team, in order to accommodate a draft choice, may not be such a good practice either.

Moreover, and to reiterate, there are no clear "best players available" in this draft, with the exception of Mize, and now that seems in question.

You're suggesting drafting Madrigal is not a good idea because he plays a position the ML team already has covered. It's the same concept as need based drafting, just worded slightly differently. Not thinking he's BPA is one thing, but you're arguing that Moncada and Anderson make Madrigal superfluous. I'd disagree with the assertion that he's not BPA if he's there at 4, but your other argument flies in the face of good drafting.

[BigHurt3515]

4 hours ago, Lillian said:

I'm still convinced that picking Madrigal, with the #4 pick, is only justified if the Sox are confident that they can keep him at second base. That is where he is a potential Gold Glover. At SS, he no longer represents an elite defender, and that is one position where I prioritize defense, over offense. For those who talk of moving him to the hot corner, he simply does not profile as a third baseman. Therefore, unless the Sox think that Moncada can successfully be moved off the keystone spot, I prefer that they select someone else. Unfortunately, Yoan seems to be determined to play second, where he fancies himself as the second coming of his idol, Robinson Cano. 

I pretty much know nothing about him but why doesn't he profile at 3B? Does he not have the arm or do you just value power at 3B?

[Dam8610]

7 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

I pretty much know nothing about him but why doesn't he profile at 3B? Does he not have the arm or do you just value power at 3B?

Some don't believe he can stick at SS because he moved off the position in deference to a teammate (Cadyn Grenier, who will likely also be drafted in the first few rounds of the draft) despite showing plus defense at 2B since. He also doesn't have a cannon arm, so some question his arm for 3B. That said, Yolmer Sanchez started as a plus defender at 2B with an average arm, and he's doing well starting at 3B. I see no reason Madrigal couldn't do the same defensively with a better bat.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Lillian said:

Asserting that Madrigal should not be selected, with the idea of moving him to another position, is not inconsistent with the valid principle of taking the best player available. If they want to select him fine, leave him at the position, for which he is best suited. If it turns out that the Sox have no place for another second baseman, when he is ready to contribute, trade him. If you don't want to trade a young player, whom you drafted at #4, then don't select him.

Many have talked about moving Moncada to third, or Anderson to CF, to accommodate Madrigal, when he's ready. Drafting for need may not be a good practice, but "needing" to mess with the core of a young team, in order to accommodate a draft choice, may not be such a good practice either.

Moreover, and to reiterate, there are no clear "best players available" in this draft, with the exception of Mize, and now that seems in question.

The problem with your logic is Madrigal showing that he can play a competent SS only improves his value.  Every team knows what he’s capable of at 2B.  If you draft him, you play him at SS in the minors until he proves he’s incapable of playing the position or you are certain he will need to fill in at 2B in the very near term.  More versatility = more value and I think it’s impossible to say he can’t be a solid defensive SS at the major league level given his tools.

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Lillian said:

Asserting that Madrigal should not be selected, with the idea of moving him to another position, is not inconsistent with the valid principle of taking the best player available. If they want to select him fine, leave him at the position, for which he is best suited. If it turns out that the Sox have no place for another second baseman, when he is ready to contribute, trade him. If you don't want to trade a young player, whom you drafted at #4, then don't select him.

Many have talked about moving Moncada to third, or Anderson to CF, to accommodate Madrigal, when he's ready. Drafting for need may not be a good practice, but "needing" to mess with the core of a young team, in order to accommodate a draft choice, may not be such a good practice either.

Moreover, and to reiterate, there are no clear "best players available" in this draft, with the exception of Mize, and now that seems in question.

If you are so married to must play position best suited, how come you aren't all for Adam Engel being a bat boy?

[Eminor3rd]

On 5/17/2018 at 5:22 PM, southsider2k5 said:

Who are you on record as the Sox should pick in order of 1-4 since we pick 4th?

Greg just learned about Anthony Rizzo today

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, Lillian said:

Asserting that Madrigal should not be selected, with the idea of moving him to another position, is not inconsistent with the valid principle of taking the best player available. If they want to select him fine, leave him at the position, for which he is best suited. If it turns out that the Sox have no place for another second baseman, when he is ready to contribute, trade him. If you don't want to trade a young player, whom you drafted at #4, then don't select him.

Many have talked about moving Moncada to third, or Anderson to CF, to accommodate Madrigal, when he's ready. Drafting for need may not be a good practice, but "needing" to mess with the core of a young team, in order to accommodate a draft choice, may not be such a good practice either.

Moreover, and to reiterate, there are no clear "best players available" in this draft, with the exception of Mize, and now that seems in question.

Tradeable assets are fungible in an open economy. Take the most valuable asset.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Eminor3rd

[DirtySox]

Officially 2 weeks until draft day. It's close folks.

[Dam8610]

26 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

Officially 2 weeks until draft day. It's close folks.

Can't wait for the new players to get into the system. Hopefully it's the impetus for several long overdue promotions, like almost all of the Kannapolis and Winston-Salem squads.

[Lillian]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If you are so married to must play position best suited, how come you aren't all for Adam Engel being a bat boy?

That's funny. touché

 

 

 

[Lillian]

Some players are very versatile, owing to their wide range of plus tools. A guy like Moncada, could play anywhere. He has speed, power, a good arm and the ability to hit. Madrigal is not the kind of player, whom I view as having that flexibility. He is a prototypical, high a on base percentage, lead off hitter with plus speed and remarkable contact skills. He supposedly lacks the arm strength to excel on the left side of the infield. He lacks the power to play any outfield positions, except CF. I just don't accept his notion that the Sox will be able to find a position for him, because he is such a great player and has a baseball acumen, that is off the charts, or that he is magically going to be transformed into a Jose Altuve, amazing little home run hitter. 

I have stated it, a couple of times, and in different contexts; He is a potential Gold Glove second baseman and terrific leadoff hitter. If you draft him, you better use him in that role. If you have an idea that you are going to try to turn him into something else, I think that would a mistake. If he is clearly the best player available, which is debatable, and you select him, don't try to convert him into something, for which he is not suitable. If he is ultimately blocked at 2ND, trade him, when the time is right.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Lillian

[Dam8610]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

Some players are very versatile, owing to their wide range of plus tools. A guy like Moncada, could play anywhere. He has speed, power, a good arm and the ability to hit. Madrigal is not the kind of player, whom I view as having that flexibility. He is a prototypical, high a on base percentage, lead off hitter with plus speed and remarkable contact skills. He supposedly lacks the arm strength to excel on the left side of the infield. He lacks the power to play any outfield positions, except CF. I just don't accept his notion that the Sox will be able to find a position for him, because he is such a great player and has a baseball acumen, that is off the charts. 

I have stated it, a couple of times, and in different contexts; He is a potential Gold Glove second baseman and terrific leadoff hitter. If you draft him, you better use him in that role. If you have an idea that you are going to try to turn him into something else, I think that would a mistake. If he is clearly the best player available, which is debatable, and you select him, don't try to convert him into something, for which he is not suitable. If he is ultimately blocked at 2ND, trade him, when the time is right.

Someone with Madrigal's speed and defensive ability isn't as limited as you make him seem defensively, and someone with his bat control and work ethic isn't as limited as you make him seem offensively. To me, this post describes his (ML caliber) floor. His ceiling is much higher. No one wants to project power on him because he's 5'8", but Altuve, Betts, and Ramirez seem to be doing fine at similar heights as power hitters.

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

Someone with Madrigal's speed and defensive ability isn't as limited as you make him seem defensively, and someone with his bat control and work ethic isn't as limited as you make him seem offensively. To me, this post describes his (ML caliber) floor. His ceiling is much higher. No one wants to project power on him because he's 5'8", but Altuve, Betts, and Ramirez seem to be doing fine at similar heights as power hitters.

Adam Eaton is a little guy too. A guy like him capable of playing middle infield seems like a really nice player to me.  Lillian liked Madrigal but then saw a youtube video of some guys who think they are experts ripping his swing, so her opinion drastically changed. Now the guy can't do anything. His .458 batting average kind of implies he can hit.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Dam8610]

13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Adam Eaton is a little guy too. A guy like him capable of playing middle infield seems like a really nice player to me.  Lillian liked Madrigal but then saw a youtube video of some guys who think they are experts ripping his swing, so her opinion drastically changed. Now the guy can't do anything. His .458 batting average kind of implies he can hit.

I saw the same video, and I didn't like the things they pointed out. Then I saw a video of Jose Altuve hitting when he was Madrigal's current age in the minors, and he had the exact same leg reach Madrigal has that saps his power. Now at the MLB level, Altuve plants much more than reaching with his front leg, and that combined with the juiced ball has yielded much better power results. I see no reason to believe a player like Madrigal couldn't make the exact same adjustment.

[Lillian]

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Adam Eaton is a little guy too. A guy like him capable of playing middle infield seems like a really nice player to me.  Lillian liked Madrigal but then saw a youtube video of some guys who think they are experts ripping his swing, so her opinion drastically changed. Now the guy can't do anything. His .458 batting average kind of implies he can hit.

Yes, he can hit. The question is, to what degree would his contact skills be diminished, if he tried to hit for power?

[Lillian]

2 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I saw the same video, and I didn't like the things they pointed out. Then I saw a video of Jose Altuve hitting when he was Madrigal's current age in the minors, and he had the exact same leg reach Madrigal has that saps his power. Now at the MLB level, Altuve plants much more than reaching with his front leg, and that combined with the juiced ball has yielded much better power results. I see no reason to believe a player like Madrigal couldn't make the exact same adjustment.

Don't we need to also factor in the metal, vs. wooden bat?

[Dick Allen]

5 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Don't we need to also factor in the metal, vs. wooden bat?

They deadened the aluminum bat a bit several years ago. It still can be an issue, but not what it was. 

[Dam8610]

19 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Yes, he can hit. The question is, to what degree would his contact skills be diminished, if he tried to hit for power?

I've seen several scouts put an 80 on his bat control, so I'd guess to whatever degree a guy with 80 bat control's contact skills diminish when leveraging for more power. I'd assume that's minimally.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I've seen several scouts put an 80 on his bat control, so I'd guess to whatever degree a guy with 80 bat control's contact skills diminish when leveraging for more power. I'd assume that's minimally.

He has fanned the exact same amount of times in about 120 plate appearances as Matt Davidson did yesterday, so you would think if whatever he did to get some extra power wouldn't move the needle too much downward.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Dick Allen

[Baker]

I like Madrigal. He would be my first pick. But he has about a 50% failure rate like any other #4. For every Altuve or Albies or Betts there are hundreds of  5’ 7” prospects that didn’t make it. Madrigal May be limited to second base. If the Sox don’t have a contingency plan for that then that’s awfully poor planning. I’m assuming if they take M, then they’re open to moving Moncada, who may be better at third anyway. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Baker

[Lillian]

Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall, in the room, where the scouts and Hostetler are discussing this stuff? Thank you all for an interesting and spirited discussion. It will be fun to see what happens, on Draft Night, and then going forward with the various players' development.

[Dam8610]

23 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Don't we need to also factor in the metal, vs. wooden bat?

That has much less of an effect today than it used to, and has literally nothing to do with the hitting mechanics I'm talking about. Make the bat out of whatever substance you want, any player is going to hit the ball harder by leveraging their core and legs in their swing, which is the mechanical adjustment Altuve made between High A and MLB, and the one Madrigal would likely benefit from making.

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Baker said:

I like Madrigal. He would be my first pick. But he has about a 50% failure rate like any other #4. For every Altuve or Albies or Betts there are hundreds of Brent Lillibridges. Madrigal May be limited to second base. If the Sox don’t have a contingency plan for that then that’s awfully poor planning. I’m assuming if they take M, then they’re open to moving Moncada, who may be better at third anyway. 

IMO, 3B would be a waste of Moncada’s range.  I’m sure he’d be fine over there, but I think he can be an elite defensive 2B.

[Eminor3rd]

1 minute ago, Lillian said:

Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall, in the room, where the scouts and Hostetler are discussing this stuff? Thank you all for an interesting and spirited discussion. It will be fun to see what happens, on Draft Night, and then going forward with the various players' development.

It sounds like you're down on Madrigal for the same reasons I was down on Alex Bregman. But I have to admit -- Bregman has worked out nicely, despite the fact that the Astros had nowhere to play him when they drafted him, and he was a fast riser.

Now, just because Bregman worked out, doesn't mean Madrigal necessarily will, but it is a significant point of data to support the idea that talented players will find a way to contribute -- or at least that having too much of a specific type of talent is a better problem to have than the alternative. 

[turnin' two]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:56 PM, Dam8610 said:

Yep, a guy who could be Pedroia or Altuve is just a terrible result for 4th overall.

I like Madrigal, and would in no way be upset if he was picked by the Sox, but expecting this result out of him (or any pick) is only setting yourself up for failure.  Could he be Altuve-like?  Sure, but there are probably better odds he never makes it out of AA.  What 5% he is Altuve, 10% he stalls out (made the numbers up entirely).  While these potential outcomes must be considered, the bulk of the consideration should be given to his most likely outcome.  With Madrigal, I would think most scouts think it is most likely that he becomes at least an average everyday player, with a chance to be above average and a smaller chance to be an all star with an even smaller chance to be a perennial all star.  But that is a guy you pick.