To those worried about the glutten of pitching prospects

[ron883]

Look, I get that we need more positional talent in our system. The thing is, I don't get why some people aren't more excited about the stockpiling of fireballers in our farm.

 

Look at the 2015 Mets team that won the pennant. They had a staff full of fireballers/guys with plus stuff. Look at how many pitchers the white sox have with + potential. Fulmer, Hansen, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech, Burdi. Five of which are currently slotted as starters. Burdi could possibly be stretched out to be a starter, but we don't know if the sox will do that. Add Rodon in there too.

 

Doesn't the thought of all these fireballers make you fraeking excited? look at the 2015 Mets. It is unlikely all of them pan out obviously, but we saw how much relievers can be traded for/how valuable they are this season. I have NO issue with the white sox stocking up on pitchers with dominant stuff. Hahn is doing an EXCELLENT job this offseason. I love his approach, and I love the value pitchers have currently/in the near future.

[Thomas_Ventura_Roberts]

Look, I get that we need more positional talent in our system. The thing is, I don't get why some people aren't more excited about the stockpiling of fireballers in our farm.

 

Look at the 2015 Mets team that won the pennant. They had a staff full of fireballers/guys with plus stuff. Look at how many pitchers the white sox have with + potential. Fulmer, Hansen, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech, Burdi. Five of which are currently slotted as starters. Burdi could possibly be stretched out to be a starter, but we don't know if the sox will do that. Add Rodon in there too.

 

Doesn't the thought of all these fireballers make you fraeking excited? look at the 2015 Mets. It is unlikely all of them pan out obviously, but we saw how much relievers can be traded for/how valuable they are this season. I have NO issue with the white sox stocking up on pitchers with dominant stuff. Hahn is doing an EXCELLENT job this offseason. I love his approach, and I love the value pitchers have currently/in the near future.

 

 

Pitching prospects are indeed exciting to have.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't understand anyone's anger at the direction we are taking. We are finally doing something with a distinct plan. It finally appears we aren't half assing something. To look at the 2017 roster and throw your arms in the air is just absurd at this point in time. They actually are doing something with a plan. None of us know if it will work, but at least they have a concrete plan that they are operating towards vs. these half ass cockamamie schemes.

 

Some would have said the Cubs had too many talents at one position and they used some of them at other positions and have used others as surplus to move for other pieces to fill needs. None of us can have a crystal ball and look at what this roster is going to look like in 2019...sure some of the pieces are here, but some we think are great, wont' pan out, others we aren't thinking of might...new parts will come on...and other trades will be made.

 

Either way, we are still in the midst of our off-season. For god sake, some of the most anti front office people on the planet (on this site) are actually on board and excited. I was skeptical after the Sale deal, but confidence grew significantly after the Eaton move. Now they better not blow that confidence and they better be willing to be patient. No idea if this will work (we could get all busts and there is luck to all of these equations, but the strategic thoughts and direction make absolute sense). Positions don't mean jack right now...top talent means everything and it isn't like we have 10 starting pitchers or something. We have very few and some of these people will bust (whether guys we got today or guys we look at that the club has drafted and brought along). We couldn't trade two front line pitchers, without filling those needs plus getting positional talent. After the next couple of trades, that should all come together even more clear and we should see an exceptional mix of pitching and positional talent.

 

But if the Dodgers were to dangle an Urias for Q, I don't give a s*** that he's a pitcher, if I'm RH I'm making that deal. I can always flip these guys later on or make other moves. In isolation, I still don't like the Sale deal (I don't hate it either..just believe that ultimately we should have been able to get a 3rd above average piece) but I have nothing but kudos for today's deal which was a provided us with a plethora of high upside talent for one player.

 

Now I'm curious to see what we do next and to be honest, I don't love the idea of just a Bregman based deal (as I do think we need a few more deals more like the Nats deal...I'd like another 3 high caliber guys like that (2 position and 1 pitcher would be ideal) for Q (which I actually think is fair since Q has a bit higher surplus then Eaton (and Q is really about the only thing like this on the market now and FA market is awful). IF we can do that, we will be in an excellent position heading into moves for Robertson / Jones / Abreu / Frazier / Melky.

[BFirebird]

I don't understand anyone's anger at the direction we are taking. We are finally doing something with a distinct plan. It finally appears we aren't half assing something. To look at the 2017 roster and throw your arms in the air is just absurd at this point in time. They actually are doing something with a plan. None of us know if it will work, but at least they have a concrete plan that they are operating towards vs. these half ass cockamamie schemes.

 

Some would have said the Cubs had too many talents at one position and they used some of them at other positions and have used others as surplus to move for other pieces to fill needs. None of us can have a crystal ball and look at what this roster is going to look like in 2019...sure some of the pieces are here, but some we think are great, wont' pan out, others we aren't thinking of might...new parts will come on...and other trades will be made.

 

Either way, we are still in the midst of our off-season. For god sake, some of the most anti front office people on the planet (on this site) are actually on board and excited. I was skeptical after the Sale deal, but confidence grew significantly after the Eaton move. Now they better not blow that confidence and they better be willing to be patient. No idea if this will work (we could get all busts and there is luck to all of these equations, but the strategic thoughts and direction make absolute sense). Positions don't mean jack right now...top talent means everything and it isn't like we have 10 starting pitchers or something. We have very few and some of these people will bust (whether guys we got today or guys we look at that the club has drafted and brought along). We couldn't trade two front line pitchers, without filling those needs plus getting positional talent. After the next couple of trades, that should all come together even more clear and we should see an exceptional mix of pitching and positional talent.

 

But if the Dodgers were to dangle an Urias for Q, I don't give a s*** that he's a pitcher, if I'm RH I'm making that deal. I can always flip these guys later on or make other moves. In isolation, I still don't like the Sale deal (I don't hate it either..just believe that ultimately we should have been able to get a 3rd above average piece) but I have nothing but kudos for today's deal which was a provided us with a plethora of high upside talent for one player.

 

Now I'm curious to see what we do next and to be honest, I don't love the idea of just a Bregman based deal (as I do think we need a few more deals more like the Nats deal...I'd like another 3 high caliber guys like that (2 position and 1 pitcher would be ideal) for Q (which I actually think is fair since Q has a bit higher surplus then Eaton (and Q is really about the only thing like this on the market now and FA market is awful). IF we can do that, we will be in an excellent position heading into moves for Robertson / Jones / Abreu / Frazier / Melky.

 

My thoughts exactly. Well said....although I may be more excited about Moncada and Kopech I understand why would you think we could get more. I am very excited about this chapter and look forward to watching the growth of our young guys. I will probably pay attention to the Minors in 2017 than the big league club! I agree with the idea you get the best players you can get, it kind of goes along with drafting, draft the best players available not based on need. Their minor league system was so desolate they need multiple players in all positions. Keep going Rick!

[chitownsportsfan]

Well said Chisoxfn. This is a clear direction. Now, it's not guaranteed to work, but for once it appears the thinking and the process is correct and 100% everybody is pulling in the same direction in the FO. The team could still suck 4 years from now but at least they will suck with youth.

[SoxAce]

I don't understand anyone's anger at the direction we are taking. We are finally doing something with a distinct plan.

 

It was mostly one poster who I'm still hoping had his account hacked.

[ChiSox59]

Anyone seen updated prospect rankings per team since the trades ? Curious to see where the White Sox are ranked now .

[BigHurt3515]

Anyone seen updated prospect rankings per team since the trades ? Curious to see where the White Sox are ranked now .

 

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=cws

 

It is just our top 30 prospects, not a team by team ranking.

[buckweaver]

The glutton of pitching prospects would have been Bobby Jenks, Bartolo Colon and for us older folks, Wilbur Wood.

 

I believe this is referring to the glut of pitching prospects.

 

FWIW...OK by me.

[jenksycat]

No point in even freaking out anyway with Q/Abreu/Jones/Melky/Frazier/Robo still on the table. We're going to get 8-10 more players back for that group + a couple top 3 draft picks in the next couple years + have a mountain of money to spend on FA in 2019-2020.

 

So pumped that they appear to finally not be half in half out 78 win team.

[ChiSox59]

http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2016?list=cws

 

It is just our top 30 prospects, not a team by team ranking.

 

Yah, I've seen that.

[OmarComing25]

Anyone seen updated prospect rankings per team since the trades ? Curious to see where the White Sox are ranked now .

Have to be Top 5 already. 4 in the top 50 (including #1 overall) and two more top 100 plus another on the verge. How many teams can match that?

[chitownsportsfan]

Did they sign David Wells' son or something?

Edited December 8, 2016 by chitownsportsfan

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Have to be Top 5 already. 4 in the top 50 (including #1 overall) and two more top 100 plus another on the verge. How many teams can match that?

 

Pirates have #8, #9, #20, #42, #72.

 

Yankees have #15, #17, #18, #22, #51, #78

 

Yeah, Sox probably have a top 5 system by now, although it's very front loaded. Other teams may have more depth 1-15 than we do. But still, more trades to occur. By the time team rankings come out in like February, we could very well be top 3 or even #1.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Don't forget though, these top 100 rankings still have to be updated. Heard on the radio today that Giolito and Moncada probably drop somewhere to top 15-20. Kopech and Lopez probably move up to that same area. So the Sox could end up being more like the Yankees current rankings where they have 4 players ranked between #15-#22.

[Dam8610]

Don't forget though, these top 100 rankings still have to be updated. Heard on the radio today that Giolito and Moncada probably drop somewhere to top 15-20. Kopech and Lopez probably move up to that same area. So the Sox could end up being more like the Yankees current rankings where they have 4 players ranked between #15-#22.

 

Well, Moncada is no longer with the Red Sox, so that makes sense. Are people really this influenced by a ML cup of coffee at 21? If so, hopefully they can get Reed/Martes/Fisher/Tucker for Q.

[caulfield12]

The best way to look at those two deals is as a combination.

 

Q or Eaton wasn't enough to pry lose Moncada, who was apparently the only "untouchable" (along with Urias, Bregman, Turner, Benintendi) on the market. For all we know, if Moncada goes 12/20 and becomes an integral part of the line-up down the stretch for Boston, he would have been untouchable as well. Those 12 k's in 20 at-bats might have changed the fortunes of two organizations quite dramatically.

 

If Hahn turned down the Giolito/Lopez/Robles/Dunning deal (as confirmed by the Washington Post)...it's only because he knew there was no way to get one of those two key (Moncada or Benintendi) players from Boston, but he also had the knowledge he would get everyone he REALLY wanted in the two combined deals except for Devers and Robles.

 

So instead of looking at it as two individual/distinct trades, I'll always see it as those two key pieces for a "package" of 7 guys which was only available in that "one-two" punch.

 

It's also quite possible the position players that Hahn is targeting are going to come from the Astros, Dodgers, etc., for Q, and he feels quite confident the framework is basically in place to make a move in the next 6-7 months. Not to mention the fact that any contender losing a starting pitcher to a season-ending injury is automatically going to be in a desperate position to be raked over the coals (that said, would prefer they trade Q now as well, as long as they get a fair price, before spring training).

 

It's going to be tempting not to glance frequently at ESPN or BR and watch what Benintendi, Devers and Robles are doing, but it's kind of one of those situations like when you've already bought or sold a stock...monitoring the day to day price after you've already sold will simply drive you crazy. (Plus, that's for the messageboards to do!)

Edited December 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Well, Moncada is no longer with the Red Sox, so that makes sense. Are people really this influenced by a ML cup of coffee at 21? If so, hopefully they can get Reed/Martes/Fisher/Tucker for Q.

 

There's absolutely no way Moncada moves out of the Top 10 based on looking bad over a week's worth of games against offspeed stuff.

 

Byron Buxton had more ups and downs than that (in 2014 and 15), and barely wavered in his ranking. It almost feels like the only way that happens is if Sox prospects get automatically downgraded for having White Sox next to their names.

 

Giolito, it's a little more reasonable to expect a slide...because he did suffer a pretty pronounced velocity drop over a sustained period of games, and his ERA/peripherals were more or less terrible (other than results from off-speed pitches).

 

 

Someone like AJ Reed (if he's still even eligible for the lists, don't you go off with 130 AB's for 50 IP?), that's a bit more understandable when you saw him slide, or Gallo, previously.

Edited December 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Jerksticks]

The best way to look at those two deals is as a combination.

 

Q or Eaton wasn't enough to pry lose Moncada, who was apparently the only "untouchable" (along with Urias, Bregman, Turner, Benintendi) on the market. For all we know, if Moncada goes 12/20 and becomes a part of the line-up down the stretch for Boston, he would have been untouchable as well. Those 12 k's in 20 at-bats might have changed the fortunes of two organizations quite dramatically.

 

If Hahn turned down the Giolito/Lopez/Robles/Dunning deal (as confirmed by the Washington Post)...it's only because he knew there was no way to get those key (Moncada or Benintendi) players from Boston, but he also had the knowledge he would get everyone he REALLY wanted in the two combined deals except for Devers and Robles.

 

So instead of looking at it as two individual/distinct trades, I'll always see it as those two key pieces for a "package" of 7 guys which was only available in that "one-two" punch.

 

It's also quite possible the position players that Hahn is targeting are going to come from the Astros, Dodgers, etc., for Q, and he feels quite confident the framework is basically in place to make a move in the next 6-7 months. Not to mention the fact that any contender losing a starting pitcher to a season-ending injury is automatically going to be in a desperate position to be raked over the coals (that said, would prefer they trade Q as well, as long as they get a fair price, before spring training).

 

It's going to be tempting not to glance frequently at ESPN or BR and watch what Benintendi, Devers and Robles are doing, but it's kind of one of those situations like when you've already bought or sold a stock...monitoring the day to day price after you've already sold will simply drive you crazy. (Plus, that's for the messageboards to do!)

 

Nice post caulfield. Nice post.

[Leonard Zelig]

I think you all are too hung up on rankings. They are all based on opinion, so they really don't mean anything.

[caulfield12]

I think you all are too hung up on rankings. They are all based on opinion, so they really don't mean anything.

 

They mean more for college basketball recruiting, but, sure...inexact science.

 

(This comes from someone who had to be contented as a University of Iowa fan occasionally turning 2-3 star recruits, and even walk-ons like Dallas Clark, into NFL/NBA players...and one McDonald's All-American every decade was like a miracle from heaven.)

 

 

On the other hand, they were pretty darned accurate for the Cubs. Despite all the hype and PR, the only one who was expected to be a regular player who hasn't made it is Soler, and that's partially based on injuries/not being able to stay healthy, and the other half on performance.

 

Dick Allen has gone through the 1st round draft picks, Top 10's and BA Top 100 lists a number of times here (listing them out by year or decade), and there's a tremendous bust ratio outside of the Top 3-5 picks, and, even then, you can look at Gordon Beckham's draft class or Aiken/Kolek to see the inherent risk, even in drafting in the Top 5.

 

White Sox fans only need to hear the names Jon Rauch and Joe Borchard, lol.

Edited December 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[thxfrthmmrs]

Here's the thing - if you don't take the Nats offer, you are in a lose lose situation. That's why the deal had to be made, regardless if it was pitching heavy.

 

1. You aren't going to find a better offer for Eaton than the one you got, take the best offer, regardless of position, we did not yet have a surplus of pitching

 

2. His value is at an all time high, his playing style is more prone to injuries. What if you hold on to him and he gets injured or he could not repeat the season he had?

 

3. If you don't trade him when the offer is right, the other fans will b**** about this being a half ass rebuild, no one should be off-limits yaddy yaddy yadda.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Here's the thing - if you don't take the Nats offer, you are in a lose lose situation. That's why the deal had to be made, regardless if it was pitching heavy.

 

1. You aren't going to find a better offer for Eaton than the one you got, take the best offer, regardless of position, we did not yet have a surplus of pitching

 

2. His value is at an all time high, his playing style is more prone to injuries. What if you hold on to him and he gets injured or he could not repeat the season he had?

 

3. If you don't trade him when the offer is right, the other fans will b**** about this being a half ass rebuild, no one should be off-limits yaddy yaddy yadda.

 

There's no way Eaton is more than a 3-4 WAR (assuming he stays healthy) if he plays CF anything like he did in Chicago. It's shocking they were so willing to gamble on him going back to that spot (and sure, they can move him to RF when Harper is gone in two years)...that they didn't analyze a lot of video from 2014 (when he played the position pretty well, except for erratic throwing) to 2015 (terrible everything, complete loss of confidence) is unfathomable.

 

It's almost like the whole Alex Rios in CF vs. RF thing. To gamble your job (in the case of Rizzo, especially if Lopez/Giolito both burn him or Eaton gets injured) on Adam is pretty crazy/desperate/nutty to me. That's not even taking into account his "mixed history" from AZ and then all the Drake LaRoche/pro-Sale and anti-KW stuff in 2016 and a few of his Twitter outbursts. Just too many things could go wrong.

Edited December 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[tray]

While I am disappointed that the Sox did not get Trea Turner or at least Robles from the Nats., what is done is done. Looking forward, there is no question that the Sox need to augment the very small core of young position players (Moncada, Zack Collons and Tim Anderson) with some additional position players that are elite prospects in their early twenties in order for this rebuilding plan to work. It doesn't appear that they can get prospects like that now that sale has been traded,, which, I guess, is the point of this thread.

Edited December 8, 2016 by miracleon35th

[Quin]

While I am disappointed that the Sox did not get Trea Turner or at least Robles from the Nats., what is done is done. Looking forward, there is no question that the Sox need to augment the very small core of young position players (Moncada, Zack Collons and Tim Anderson) with some additional position players that are elite prospects in their early twenties in order for this rebuilding plan to work. It doesn't appear that they can get prospects like that now that sale has been traded,, which, I guess, is the point of this thread.

 

A Quintana deal will almost certainly bring back position players.