Reason we didn't win pennant

[greg775]

Everybody has their "I told you so" moment.

 

Last offseason I said we needed Jim Thome.

We had to have Jim Thome.

He is one of the great guys in baseball, a true winner.

 

We don't get Thome and we again like the one thread said all year

had "heartless, passionless, dumbass" Sox.

 

I thought Daubach would bring a presence.

He didn't do s***.

 

Frank can't lead, though he had a great year.

Maggs is great but no leader.

Sandy is too old and punchless with the bat to lead.

Paulie had too awful a year to lead.

 

We will never win anything until we luck into a great manager and find some

true winners like JIM THOME.

 

Comments?

[JoshPR]

Everybody has their "I told you so" moment.

 

Last offseason I said we needed Jim Thome.

We had to have Jim Thome.

He is one of the great guys in baseball, a true winner.

 

We don't get Thome and we again like the one thread said all year

had "heartless, passionless, dumbass" Sox.

 

I thought Daubach would bring a presence.

He didn't do s***.

 

Frank can't lead, though he had a great year.

Maggs is great but no leader.

Sandy is too old and punchless with the bat to lead.

Paulie had too awful a year to lead.

 

We will never win anything until we luck into a great manager and find some

true winners like JIM THOME.

 

Comments?

Daubach couldn't be a presence with the PT

[MurcieOne]

I can tell you why we lost the divison.......

 

8 losses to Detriot

 

Minnesota has 1 loss to Detriot.

[greg775]

Good point, Josh, I thought of that after I posted, but

I have a sneaky feeling Daubach is through.

No more bat and he is slower than Carlton Fisk at age 50.

[MurcieOne]

Everybody has their "I told you so" moment.

 

Last offseason I said we needed Jim Thome.

We had to have Jim Thome.

He is one of the great guys in baseball, a true winner.

 

We don't get Thome and we again like the one thread said all year

had "heartless, passionless, dumbass" Sox.

 

I thought Daubach would bring a presence.

He didn't do s***.

 

Frank can't lead, though he had a great year.

Maggs is great but no leader.

Sandy is too old and punchless with the bat to lead.

Paulie had too awful a year to lead.

 

We will never win anything until we luck into a great manager and find some

true winners like JIM THOME.

 

Comments?

Jim Thome is on the Phillies and their on the brink of missing the playoffs...... so... thats not necessarliy true... although I do agree that we need a better manager.

[greg775]

My point exactly Murcie

Why can't we beat the Detroits???

No Thomes in the clubhouse.

[Capn12]

We're giving alot of credit to Jim Thome. He is not the messiah of winning baseball. He is a solid player...but a) hes slow, B) hes a power hitter. Those are 2 of the qualities that we have too much of already. I do understand your point, however.

[YASNY]

If we had signed Jim Thome to the type of contract the Phillies did, we'd be crying because we'd have a slow, ineffective old 1B tying up too much payroll. The Phillies will regret that contract when it's all said and done. Mark my words.

[Bmr31]

If we had signed Jim Thome to the type of contract the Phillies did, we'd be crying because we'd have a slow, ineffective old 1B tying up too much payroll.  The Phillies will regret that contract when it's all said and done.  Mark my words.

What do I mark them with? I do agree with you, however. Baseball is not a sport to give a lot of money to one player, especially, an old, slow, one dimensional player.

[JoshPR]

I can tell you why we lost the divison.......

 

8 losses to Detriot

 

Minnesota has 1 loss to Detriot.

Just looking at some stats... Maroth, Bonderman and Cornejo are 1-2-3 in Losses in the AL and there 20 - 57 combined... Wanna know who 7 of those wins came against.....

 

 

Yeah you guesed.. The Whitesox

[Bmr31]

I can tell you why we lost the divison.......

 

8 losses to Detriot

 

Minnesota has 1 loss to Detriot.

Just looking at some stats... Maroth, Bonderman and Cornejo are 1-2-3 in Losses in the AL and there 20 - 57 combined... Wanna know who 7 of those wins came against.....

 

 

Yeah you guesed.. The Whitesox

SOrry guys, the sox problems are WAY deeper than the losses to the Tigers.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

our losing the pennant has nothing to do with not gettin thome... and everything to do with the piss poor decisions that jm makes on a day to day basis... back that up with the crap philosophy this team has and you have a reason for not winning......no heart, no leadership and lack of baseball fundamentals backed with each and every player thinking that they have to swing for a fence with each at bat, is a better formula for losing.........thome has nothing to do with it........mho

[SAVVY18]

The cubs proved it this year that a competent/good manager makes a huge difference. Do you really think that they have more talent than us? NO...they have a better manager.

 

Thome is good, but he isn't god.

 

By the way... :fthecubs

[southsider2k5]

The cubs proved it this year that a competent/good manager makes a huge difference.  Do you really think that they have more talent than us?  NO...they have a better manager.   

 

Thome is good, but he isn't god. 

 

By the way... :fthecubs

Also they proved the value of a balanced line up...

[DonkeyKongerko]

The cubs proved it this year that a competent/good manager makes a huge difference.  Do you really think that they have more talent than us?  NO...they have a better manager.   

 

Thome is good, but he isn't god. 

 

By the way... :fthecubs

Also they proved the value of a balanced line up...

Agreed. They are winning now and Sammy is NOT hitting that many homeruns. Their lineup has also been without Corey Patterson since the All Star Break. What that tells me is it's important to have guys like Grudzielanek in there who just get on base and kill you with their two out hits. Granted he is having a career year but it seems like most of the Cubs are under Dusty Baker. I love Dusty Baker but I have to hate him because he is a Cub.

 

Also, Phillies will not be in the playoffs this year. Go Florida!

[Soxplosion]

We lost because we had no heart. Everett brought heart to this team but that wasnt enough. I strongly believe however that Everett needs to be brought back next year. And Thome would have just clogged up the first base/DH situation even more. All we need for next year is some hustle and winning attitude...

[Chisoxrd5]

I can tell you why we lost the divison.......

 

8 losses to Detriot

 

Minnesota has 1 loss to Detriot.

Just looking at some stats... Maroth, Bonderman and Cornejo are 1-2-3 in Losses in the AL and there 20 - 57 combined... Wanna know who 7 of those wins came against.....

 

 

Yeah you guesed.. The Whitesox

SOrry guys, the sox problems are WAY deeper than the losses to the Tigers.

However, their inability to beat the Tigers just shows what kind of team they are!!!

 

A team that has so many problems, inadequecies, insecurities, inconsistencies, that they are where they are right now...

 

Loaded with talent, Lacking in the Substance

 

YOUR CHICAGO WHITE SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[witesoxfan]

I thought of a few reasons why our record has been so poor this year....and I came up with a few, and they are all solid reasons as to why we didn't win(BTW, Jim Thome is not included....sorry Greg )

 

Losses to Detroit. Cut our losses in half, you can add 4 more wins to the win column.

Another was run support. We too often scored in bunches. We'd score 10 runs 1 game and 2 runs the other.....very reminiscent of last year. It's a huge, huge reason why Esteban does not and probably will not reach 20 wins this year and why he will not win the Cy Young. Buehrle was also hit by that as well. And Garland and Colon were also victims of that. But it was mainly Loaiza. We win half of those games where those the staff got no run support, and that's easily another 4-10 wins.

I believe we lost 1-0 4 or 5 times this year, and Loaiza lost 1-0 3 times(twice to Detroit). I can understand 2 times or so, but that is un-frickin-believable.

Another was our 3-7 stretch before the ASB. We got 7-3 or even 5-5 during that stretch and we could have actually had a shot.

And the last reason I came up with was the fact that we won 2 out of the last 7 games against Minny. We win 2 of those games and we are still mathematically in this race, and if those 4 wins came in the Chicago series and we had no idea what was going to happen in the series in Minnesota, we would actually have had a chance of getting in.

 

We were very fortunate our season was not WAY worse then it was. We were probably the luckiest team in the majors this year. We were hit by very, very, very few injuries(Koch had his elbow f***ed up all year, but that was from Oakland....Wunsch was on the DL for a bit, Wright was, and I believe Sandy was on it at one point as well....or maybe that was Miguel....I can't remember), AND we had a non-roster invitee come in and compete for the Cy Young award, lead the league in wins, ERA, and qualtiy starts(which I think Loaiza still leads in) for most of the year, and we ripped the Expos off royally in getting Bartolo Colon(we gave up El Cañon(aka El Heartattack, Antonio Osuna), Rocky Biddle, Delvis Lantigua, and Jeff Liefer, and we were then fortunate enough to get Robby Alomar and Carl Everett for a few minor leaguers. The fact that this team didn't win almost makes me want to cry. This was THE most talented team on the planet. They just didn't mix well. You can't get a bunch of sluggers together and win a pennant nowadays, unless you have the desire to win. I think you know what I'm getting at.

[greg775]

well i understand all your points, maybe thome wasn't the answer completely.

But some of you suggest we need heart.

I am saying one player can do a lot in that department.

Have we had a stud like that in a while?

I thought Thome was that kind of player.

Maybe a leader is overrated.

 

I do agree with the great post about Manuel.

I sure hope we hire a good replacement.

The Royals have proven before hiring Pena that you can make many

mistakes hiring managers (Boone, Muser).

And we hired Bevington who was the worst manager in Sox history.

 

We could easily hire somebody worse than Manuel if we go cheap.

[YASNY]

well i understand all your points, maybe thome wasn't the answer completely.

But some of you suggest we need heart.

I am saying one player can do a lot in that department.

Have we had a stud like that in a while?

I thought Thome was that kind of player.

Maybe a leader is overrated.

 

I do agree with the great post about Manuel.

I sure hope we hire a good replacement.

The Royals have proven before hiring Pena that you can make many

mistakes hiring managers (Boone, Muser).

And we hired Bevington who was the worst manager in Sox history.

 

We could easily hire somebody worse than Manuel if we go cheap.

I don't disagree with you on Thome. I'm just saying that the contract he signed with Philly was way beyond anything we could, or would even want to, do. That contract would have hamstrung the Sox for years.

[greg775]

I can buy that argument.

Thome probably was too expensive.

I just wish we could find some real gamers.

I was thinking Daubach was the guy back in the winter when we got him.

Maybe like the one poster said he didn't have enough at bats

to lead.

[YASNY]

Daubach will get out of town so fast that you'd think his ass was on fire. He had a miserable year here. He Gawn!

[JUGGERNAUT]

Those of you who are blamming a loss season on 11-8 vs DET don't know jack.

 

We lost this division back in the off-season when KW paid 24/3 for Konerko. A player who has consistently produced 2 monster months, 2 avg months, & 2 s***y months ea. & every yr with the SOX. The only thing that really changed over time is that his monster months got bigger. But there was still only 2 of them.

Konerko should have been traded for a solid 2B or SS that could hit last year when his #'s were at their peaks. Most of you made every excuse for this 1/3rd season player but I knew better. I told you that his lack of speed would hurt the SOX more than help them & that's exactly what happened.

 

We lost this division when Jerry Manuel was retained after accomplishing nothing in his tenure with the SOX. Sea swept them in 2000 in the post-season. I hardly consider getting there an accomplishment worth celebrating. Jerry's Jeckyl/Hyde decisions cost this team a minimum of 12 wins over this year. That's more than the failures vs DET, or even Konerko's impact. He should have been fired after 2001. The SOX aren't paying him Baker $$$.

 

We lost this division because we had the worst performance from our 5th spot in the rotation in 6 yrs. It might have been the worst ever. Any one who thinks you can win a division with s*** as a 5th starter don't know jack. The 5th starter still gets about 30 starts a yr. About 5-7 less than the rest. It all comes down to %'s.

Good starters win 40% of their starts (14) wins & the team picks them up about 20% more. So if you have a decent 1-4 you should get 80 wins out of them. That means you still need a minimum of 10 wins out of the 5th spot. Our wonderful 5th spot combined for 4 F'g wins this yr out of 27 starts.

 

We lost the division because the Twinks came to their senses & unleased RJ jr. Santana went 10-2 as a starter this yr & 7-0 his last 7 starts. The hot arm usually pushes their team across the finish line.

 

Let's break it down:

SOX (1-4): 59W-49L in 132 starts; (5): 4W-10L in 27 starts; (BP): 20W-16L

MN Twinks: (1-4): 47W-41L in 115 starts; (5): 22W-12L in 42 starts; (BP): 20W-16L

 

It's blatantly obvious where the SOX lost the division.

The question is who's to blame? KW & JM. KW for not realizing the importance of a viable 5th starter this year when competing with the Twinks & knowing that Santana was eventually going to make his way into the rotation. JM for managing 5th starts like they were throw away games.

 

Now let's look at the F'g offense:

Twinks: 770 OPS, 742 OPS vs, 2376 TB, 784R, 736R vs., 738RBI, 94/138 SB%

C SOX: 774 OPS, 726 OPS vs, 2384 TB, 756R, 709R vs., 733RBI, 74/102 SB %

 

Overall the numbers are pretty similar with 1 exception:

The Twinks scored nearly 30 runs more than the SOX.

Even with a useless 5th starter, the SOX still could have won this division with offense alone. The Twinks did more with less because of team speed. For the 2nd straight yr the Twinks have won the division with team speed & pitching. Their hitting is no better or worse than the SOX or KC.

 

Team Speed

It's not just that the Twinks stole 20 more bases, but also that they had 36 more attempts. A team that runs that often puts added pressure on opposing pitchers & that usually results in more mistakes that they can capitalize on.

 

The SOX need to re-vamp the team for more speed. This is why I am strongly suggesting a Maggs+Konerko to STL for Renteria+Drew+arm. Or if you think the SOX can afford Maggs, then swap Buehrle for Maggs. The combination of Renteria+Drew on the base pads will easily make the SOX the fastest team in the ALC. A +28 in SB's in the exchange. That should lead the SOX to 140 SB attempts in 2004.

 

This isn't about a popularity contest. That isn't KW's job. His job is to make the SOX a better team. Period.

 

2004 lineup:

Alomar/Vina - 2B

Renteria - SS

C Lee - LF/DH

F Thomas - DH/1B

C Everett - CF/DH

J Crede - 3B

J Val - 1B/RF/DH

J Drew - RF/1B/DH

M Olivo - C

 

This is a fast, yet powerful lineup that is certain to be more competitive than 2003's.

The SOX will lop off 11MIL in salary on the trade. Enough to pay Colon or purchase a new #1.

[YASNY]

The 5th starter slot did do the Sox in this year. Who would have known Danny Wright would go from 14 wins to 0 as a starter? As for that deal with St. Louis, I don't think StL would go for Maggs/PK ... and we can't trade Buerhle based one your theory that we were already one starter short.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The 5th starter slot did do the Sox in this year.  Who would have known Danny Wright would go from 14 wins to 0 as a starter?  As for that deal with St. Louis, I don't think StL would go for Maggs/PK ... and we can't trade Buerhle based one your theory that we were already one starter short.

Why STL does the Maggs+PK trade:

1) They have no place to play Drew. (He's solid O, but not a big bat)

2) They are paying Tino 7.5mil for a 786 OPS. PK is a major upgrade for about the same $$$.

3) Drew will be a FA after 2K4. They don't plan to keep him.

4) Maggs is a near certainty for 30HR, 100RBI.

5) Maggs has proven success vs most of the NLC.

6) SOX would probably throw in cash (2mil)

7) Maggs is a career 308A, 897OPS hitter. That makes him the best hitter on STL with players having 5+ yrs experience. Jim Edmonds made betw 8-9MIL last yr & has an avg 17 pts less than Maggs.

8) Renteria's career 748OPS in 8 yrs, makes him a late bloomer/1 yr wonder candidate.

9) STL has Bowers in AAA who turns 26 & is ready to make the jump to the MLs.

10) A lineup of Rolen, Edmonds, Pujols, Maggs, Konerko makes STL the strongest offensive club in the NL. (Assuming Koney has 4/6 avg-all star caliber months).

 

As for Buehrle+Koney it's a no-brainer for STL since the $$$ is about the same & Mark would definitely improve his #'s with about 5 sure outs vs pitchers ev game. Of course why would the SOX trade Mark? Ans: $$$. Mark is up for his first yr of arbitration. He has a 53-35 rec in 104 GS w a 3.71 era that he brings to arbitration.

His rankings through his 1st 4 yrs: 19,16,5,43C. His avg ranking is 13th. What's the 13th best pitcher in the AL over the last 3 yrs worth? They might do this just because they feel they can't sign him to a multi-year.

 

I've think this we can bank on. If they can't sign Colon they wil NOT deal Buehrle.

If they can sign Colon they would be more likely to deal Mark.