White Sox sign Derek Holland

[ChiSox59]

We had the 5th worst record in the American League in 2016

 

If we trade Quintana + others we can pencil ourselves in for 60-65 wins at best and we would be one of the worst teams in baseball

 

A rotation of Rodon/Gonzalez/Shields/Holland/Covey/Beck/Crappy FA signing = 60 wins

 

My comment was "as currently constructed", meaning no further meaningful subtractions (Q, Frazier, Melky, Abreu, Robertson, etc.).

[Bob Sacamano]

My comment was "as currently constructed", meaning no further meaningful subtractions (Q, Frazier, Melky, Abreu, Robertson, etc.).

 

Yeah. We should still be in the top ten pick range, but teams like Reds, Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Padres, A's are still worse than us.

[steveno89]

To be fair, I said COULD play .500 ball. Sox won 78 games last year and pretty much everyone besides Sale, Eaton, Q and Melky underperformed.

 

A lineup of:

 

Anderson - SS

Melky - LF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Alvarez / Morneau - DH

Lawrie - 2B

Rasmus - CF

Liriano / Avi - RF

Narvaez / Some FA - C

 

I think Alvarez / Morneau could be had pretty cheap. Could probably get Rasmus on a one year deal around $8-$10M. That lineup isn't great, but its also not awful. You have Moncada who could come up a take Lawrie's spot when he gets hurt.

 

Look, I don't think that team will compete, but its also not completely crazy to think that team could be within 5 games of .500 by mid June. Have Giolito, Lopez and Fulmer in AAA waiting for a shot in the rotation.

 

I fully expect (and hope) to the Sox to make further moves to make this all moot, but right now, the core of .500ish team is still there. Let's not forget that the Sox have tried to win for pretty much 2 decades straight. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a lineup like this on opening day. You can still trade guys like Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson mid-season, and guys like Q and Abreu next offseason. If you're not getting something useful for the impending FAs now, may as well hold and see what happens.

 

The lineup won't be the reason we are awful, the starting rotation minus Quintana and bullpen minus Robertson is why we will be awful

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Is this signing official yet?

 

I don't have any issue with adding him. He's not that old and it's probably a short term and cheap contract. Worst case scenario is he's a Shields or Danks clone and gets the Sox closer to the #1 pick. Best case is that Coop helps him out and the Sox get another prospect out of it.

 

We'll see.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah. We should still be in the top ten pick range, but teams like Reds, Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Padres, A's are still worse than us.

There's a lot of really bad teams in MLB these days. A lot more with zero shot of being good than I can remember. Plus some teams we think can be good won't be.

[ChiSox59]

The lineup won't be the reason we are awful, the starting rotation minus Quintana and bullpen minus Robertson is why we will be awful

 

For the third time, in my scenario, I said Quintana and Robertson DON'T get moved. That is what "as currently constructed" means. Last I checked, those dudes are still cashing checks from the Chicago White Sox.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ChiSox59

[bjm676]

also good, because it's one less pitcher on the market. #leverage

[steveno89]

Can you read? In my scenario, I said Quintana and Robertson DON'T get move. That is what "as currently constructed" means. Last I checked, those dudes are still cashing checks from the Chicago White Sox.

 

Of course, as currently constructed we are not THAT bad

 

But, we all know that guys like Quintana/Robertson/FRazier/etc are more likely than not going to be moved for prospects

[flavum]

Is this signing official yet?

 

I don't have any issue with adding him. He's not that old and it's probably a short term and cheap contract. Worst case scenario is he's a Shields or Danks clone and gets the Sox closer to the #1 pick. Best case is that Coop helps him out and the Sox get another prospect out of it.

 

We'll see.

 

Not official yet. Don't even know if this is a minor league deal. If it's a major league deal, they would have to clear a spot for him.

 

This time of year, it sometimes gets delayed officially for weeks.

[Dick Allen]

So how does this work? There is another thread that pretty much states we should cheer for losses and the team to suck for the draft pick. So should we cheer for Holland to suck or be a Cy Young candidate? Seems to me, the #1 overall pick is worth more than some measly prospect a team may give you for 2 months of Derek Holland's services.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Of course, as currently constructed we are not THAT bad

 

But, we all know that guys like Quintana/Robertson/FRazier/etc are more likely than not going to be moved for prospects

How do we know that? The front office has already stated they aren't moving those guys unless they get full value in return (in their eyes). Why are we certain that they will receive a satisfactory return this offseason?

[Dick Allen]

How do we know that? The front office has already stated they aren't moving those guys unless they get full value in return (in their eyes). Why are we certain that they will receive a satisfactory return this offseason?

They are going to go. The Sox lost Sale and Eaton and their replacements as of now are Holland and Liriano. They suck right now and will get worse shortly.

[Jose Abreu]

Not bad if we're trying to tank for Beer.

[Bob Sacamano]

So how does this work? There is another thread that pretty much states we should cheer for losses and the team to suck for the draft pick. So should we cheer for Holland to suck or be a Cy Young candidate? Seems to me, the #1 overall pick is worth more than some measly prospect a team may give you for 2 months of Derek Holland's services.

 

May not matter if he pitches good and the offense continues not showing up.

[steveno89]

How do we know that? The front office has already stated they aren't moving those guys unless they get full value in return (in their eyes). Why are we certain that they will receive a satisfactory return this offseason?

 

You do not just trade Sale and Eaton and call it an offseason, that would run counter to performing an impactful rebuild

 

Trading Eaton and Sale effectively punts on the next two seasons, so why keep players around any longer than they need to be? I will not trade them for less value than they are worth, but by the deadline in 2017 you will see pretty much every tradeable asset moved

[ChiSox59]

Of course, as currently constructed we are not THAT bad

 

But, we all know that guys like Quintana/Robertson/FRazier/etc are more likely than not going to be moved for prospects

 

 

Totally agreed.

 

But I don't think we can dismiss what the last 20 years have told us about this organization.

 

Plus, if you can't get anything meaningful for Frazier, Melky, Lawrie - why move them? I'd rather see if the offers are better in June/July, than take some backend top 20 prospect from a farm that will likely never make the majors. What good does that do? Saves Jerry some $, that is about it.

[Y2Jimmy0]

So how does this work? There is another thread that pretty much states we should cheer for losses and the team to suck for the draft pick. So should we cheer for Holland to suck or be a Cy Young candidate? Seems to me, the #1 overall pick is worth more than some measly prospect a team may give you for 2 months of Derek Holland's services.

 

 

Someone needs to start, Dick. He's a guy that could recoup some value and potentially get moved. You don't have to cheer for losses. Do whatever you'd like. Losing a f***load of games this year does get the franchise closer to a world series though. And that's always the goal.

[steveno89]

Totally agreed.

 

But I don't think we can dismiss what the last 20 years have told us about this organization.

 

Plus, if you can't get anything meaningful for Frazier, Melky, Lawrie - why move them? I'd rather see if the offers are better in June/July, than take some backend top 20 prospect from a farm that will likely never make the majors. What good does that do? Saves Jerry some $, that is about it.

 

Obviously if the trade offers are not good we keep them and try to flip them at the deadline

 

I think there will be enough demand for Quintana and Robertson to get moved this offseason though

 

Frazier, Melky, Abreu, Jones, Gonzalez are more likely to start the season on the Sox roster

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You do not just trade Sale and Eaton and call it an offseason, that would run counter to performing an impactful rebuild

 

Trading Eaton and Sale effectively punts on the next two seasons, so why keep players around any longer than they need to be? I will not trade them for less value than they are worth, but by the deadline in 2017 you will see pretty much every tradeable asset moved

I completely agree that they should be moved but I don't see how it's the certainty that everyone here is proclaiming. There is a very real possibility that they enter the season with Q, Frazier, Abreu, etc. still on the roster. Until proven otherwise, it's more likely that they remain on the OD roster than don't.

[Bob Sacamano]

I completely agree that they should be moved but I don't see how it's the certainty that everyone here is proclaiming. There is a very real possibility that they enter the season with Q, Frazier, Abreu, etc. still on the roster. Until proven otherwise, it's more likely that they remain on the OD roster than don't.

 

Yeah I understand what you're saying, but a lot of people seem to just want them to trade to make a trade and take best offer (which they may end up having to do, but don't have to now).

[ChiSox59]

Obviously if the trade offers are not good we keep them and try to flip them at the deadline

 

I think there will be enough demand for Quintana and Robertson to get moved this offseason though

 

Frazier, Melky, Abreu, Jones, Gonzalez are more likely to start the season on the Sox roster

 

We're on the same page. I just wouldn't be shocked to see Q stick around. Musgrove/Martes/Tucker doesn't really change that for me. I think you can get a comparable deal to that next December. Robertson...we shall see.

 

I always tend to look at things on the positive side, but I just don't think the current team with Q on it is a bottom 1/4 of the league team. Especially with some patchwork signings I assume they'll make - like Alvarez and Rasmus.

[southsider2k5]

I completely agree that they should be moved but I don't see how it's the certainty that everyone here is proclaiming. There is a very real possibility that they enter the season with Q, Frazier, Abreu, etc. still on the roster. Until proven otherwise, it's more likely that they remain on the OD roster than don't.

 

The guys who have the most control have the most continuing value. The guys who are most likely to be moved are the ones who have short times left under control. The one exception could be Frazier, who has shown interest in extending with a bad team in the past and has made similar grumblings with the White Sox.

[ChiSox59]

Yeah I understand what you're saying, but a lot of people seem to just want them to trade to make a trade and take best offer (which they may end up having to do, but don't have to now).

 

Exactly. That is the last thing the Sox need to be doing right now.

[Dick Allen]

There is going to be an explosion of action fairly soon. There are a lot of teams that have done next to nothing yet.

[steveno89]

There is going to be an explosion of action fairly soon. There are a lot of teams that have done next to nothing yet.

 

Sometimes it just takes some time for a market for certain players to develop.

 

Agreed, there are many teams that have not done much of anything this offseason but still plan to make moves

 

Quintana would look great on any contender