All-In?? (joking)

[he gone.]

So from time to time I think about another way to put together this team in 2017 and I get to thinking, maybe we can do a teardown while maintaining the ability to win. My thought process behind it? It may allow us to have more leverage on Quintana and Robertson, etc. while maybe not looking like hot garbage next year.

 

Here's just an idea, and it was kind of ruined with the Wellington Castillo pick up by the O's -- but:

 

Let's sign:

 

Josh Hamilton to a 1 year deal for like $1-2mm - way I see it? He's getting Minor league interest. He's a roll of the dice like Rollins. You probably end up cutting him - but let's say he has a mini revival and hits .250 with 15 homers by the deadline? You can turn that into a low level prospect lottery ticket possibly.

 

Jose Bautista to a 2 year deal for like $30mm. His market is very small right now and all signs point back to Toronto. There are rumors about a 3 year deal with a 1 year opt-out. Maybe going high on price for 2 years is worth the risk. We have the money and if he reverts back to his younger numbers you can have a masher in your lineup that you can flip.

We have the luxury of taking a risk. A team fighting for the playoffs can't sign a Joey Bats and if he flops eat that. With only a two year contract, and if performing, he could get you a nice haul - probably similar to whatever Beltran got. If he fails? Who cares. We have almost no salary.

 

Wellington Castillo: Obviously can't do that anymore.

 

An OF type: Colby Rasmus/Ben Revere - to one year deals. Both are acceptable. Or another similar type. Again same thinking, they can help us be competitive and add something to the team and can be flipped down the stretch. Not like they'll get much back in a haul, but both have played well in the past.

 

Justin Morenau - again same. He didn't do badly last year. Very meh. But can get him at $1-2mm probably. Worth it.

 

Pitching - Rubby De La Rosa - Coop type of fix guy. He does have some good stuff and can get strikeouts. Over the years I've had him on my fantasy team and he'll mow down teams for 3-4 starts at a time and then get shelled the next 2. Very up and down. Maybe something Coop can see and fix. Those type of pitchers can be so valuable ala Rich Hill if they ever figure it out.

 

Jake Peavy: This is more cause I like the guy. But also I wouldn't mind him in the clubhouse talking to the younger guys in Lopez and Kopech (Spring Training) and Giolito, Rodon, Fulmer, etc.

 

 

 

Now that's a lot of guys and obviously we wont get them all, so I'll pick out a few and put together a lineup:

 

CF- Revere

LF - Melky

1B - Abreu

DH - Joey Bats/Morneau/Hamilton (obviously if this is the latter two you move them down in the lineup)

3B - Frazier

2B - Moncada

SS - Anderson

RF - Rasmus

C - Warm Body

 

Out of all those guys -- every one can be on a 1-2 year deal except Abreu/Moncada/Anderson and those guys are who I want to stick around. Joey Bats is the most aggressive signing and riskiest but a middle lineup like Abreu/Bautista/Frazier mashes.

 

Then pitching:

 

Quintana

Rodon

Gonzalez

Holland

De La Rosa

 

Again more pitchers mentioned than we have space for. Probably cut out Peavy. Move Shields to long relief and #6. Undoubtedly someone gets hurt.

You still have Jones and Robertson.

 

It's actually maybe a competitive team in the first half and you can still tear down at any given point this year. Your bench has Lawrie and Tilson and Saladino. You have a very capable OF with Revere and Rasmus chasing balls down. You have infield depth and versatility. A few lotto tickets in the pithcing rotation....

 

I mean, stuck in Sox mediocrity, but could be an 85 win team and doesn't stop you from tearing down at any point.

 

I know I'll get roasted for this post, just devil's advocate. you are signing guys with previous upside to short term deals that you can flip and yet remain competitive keeping somewhat of an upperhand on the trade market.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Don't really want them surrendering a first-round pick for Bautista.

[steveno89]

Don't really want them surrendering a first-round pick for Bautista.

 

Agreed, giving up the #11 overall pick would be unforgivable at this point. We need that draft pick

[ChiSox59]

I pretty much said this same thing in a lot less words yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Sox patchwork this thing and see if they can stay around .500 until the young guns are ready in June. Generally speaking, I don't think its the best plan, but its a super White Sox thing to do. And plus, I am OK with it if they don't find the trade offers on Q, Abreu, Frazier, Robertson, Melky, Lawrie to their liking. Can always trade the guys with 1 year left in June/July to the highest bidder, and its not like any of those guys have tremendous value now. I don't see Q's value going anywhere in the next year, and if Abreu hits like he did in the 2nd half last year, his value will probably go up. Trading Melky for someone's 15th best prospect that will never make the majors does nothing for me, personally.

 

I don't see the Sox splurging for Bautista - no way they give up the pick. Hamilton on a minor league deal would be interesting, but I think the Rangers will bring him back on a minors pact.

 

I think Rasmus in CF, and either Alvarez or Morneau at DH is a real possibility. I am intrigued by Revere if we can't get Rasmus, but I'd really like to see if we can get anything out of Liriano in RF this year. Maybe Hank Conger at C. Another reclamation project SP.

 

That team probably isn't .500 on June 1, but it's probably not that far away either. The lineup isn't all bad. A big first half from Q, Rodon continuing his development, Gonzo being Gonzo, and if Shields isn't a complete pumpkin, that team could be within a few games of .500.

Edited December 15, 2016 by ChiSox59

[Soxbadger]

I dont think its a coincidence that the only 2 players who have been moved so far are "Drake" fans. Well see how this all goes, but there is definitely a chance that the "rebuild" was being used to distract from the real agenda, getting rid of the outspoken "Drake" fans.

[Bob Sacamano]

I pretty much said this same thing in a lot less words yesterday. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Sox patchwork this thing and see if they can stay around .500 until the young guns are ready in June. Generally speaking, I don't think its the best plan, but its a super White Sox thing to do. And plus, I am OK with it if they don't find the trade offers on Q, Abreu, Frazier, Robertson, Melky, Lawrie to their liking. Can always trade the guys with 1 year left in June/July to the highest bidder, and its not like any of those guys have tremendous value now. I don't see Q's value going anywhere in the next year, and if Abreu hits like he did in the 2nd half last year, his value will probably go up. Trading Melky for someone's 15th best prospect that will never make the majors does nothing for me, personally.

 

I don't see the Sox splurging for Bautista - no way they give up the pick. Hamilton on a minor league deal would be interesting, but I think the Rangers will bring him back on a minors pact.

 

I think Rasmus in CF, and either Alvarez or Morneau at DH is a real possibility. I am intrigued by Revere if we can't get Rasmus, but I'd really like to see if we can get anything out of Liriano in RF this year. Maybe Hank Conger at C. Another reclamation project SP.

 

That team probably isn't .500 on June 1, but it's probably not that far away either. The lineup isn't all bad. A big first half from Q, Rodon continuing his development, Gonzo being Gonzo, and if Shields isn't a complete pumpkin, that team could be within a few games of .500.

 

Yeah while I'm confident they want to rebuild, what if the guys that are here now actually play good enough to compete? Guys who are already here but expected to be dealt plus whoever they add for sign-and-flip candidates on one year deals? And then the guys we call up make an immediate impact? Do they just abandon the rebuild?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I dont think its a coincidence that the only 2 players who have been moved so far are "Drake" fans. Well see how this all goes, but there is definitely a chance that the "rebuild" was being used to distract from the real agenda, getting rid of the outspoken "Drake" fans.

 

This same thought literally just crossed my mind before my post above this one.

[NCsoxfan]

I dont think its a coincidence that the only 2 players who have been moved so far are "Drake" fans. Well see how this all goes, but there is definitely a chance that the "rebuild" was being used to distract from the real agenda, getting rid of the outspoken "Drake" fans.

 

Guys, seriously. They're shopping Quintana, Frazier, and others as well. You wouldn't be shopping Jose Quintana if the whole purpose was to dump the Drake distractions. C'mon.

[Dam8610]

So from time to time I think about another way to put together this team in 2017 and I get to thinking, maybe we can do a teardown while maintaining the ability to win. My thought process behind it? It may allow us to have more leverage on Quintana and Robertson, etc. while maybe not looking like hot garbage next year.

 

Here's just an idea, and it was kind of ruined with the Wellington Castillo pick up by the O's -- but:

 

Let's sign:

 

Josh Hamilton to a 1 year deal for like $1-2mm - way I see it? He's getting Minor league interest. He's a roll of the dice like Rollins. You probably end up cutting him - but let's say he has a mini revival and hits .250 with 15 homers by the deadline? You can turn that into a low level prospect lottery ticket possibly.

 

Jose Bautista to a 2 year deal for like $30mm. His market is very small right now and all signs point back to Toronto. There are rumors about a 3 year deal with a 1 year opt-out. Maybe going high on price for 2 years is worth the risk. We have the money and if he reverts back to his younger numbers you can have a masher in your lineup that you can flip.

We have the luxury of taking a risk. A team fighting for the playoffs can't sign a Joey Bats and if he flops eat that. With only a two year contract, and if performing, he could get you a nice haul - probably similar to whatever Beltran got. If he fails? Who cares. We have almost no salary.

 

Wellington Castillo: Obviously can't do that anymore.

 

An OF type: Colby Rasmus/Ben Revere - to one year deals. Both are acceptable. Or another similar type. Again same thinking, they can help us be competitive and add something to the team and can be flipped down the stretch. Not like they'll get much back in a haul, but both have played well in the past.

 

Justin Morenau - again same. He didn't do badly last year. Very meh. But can get him at $1-2mm probably. Worth it.

 

Pitching - Rubby De La Rosa - Coop type of fix guy. He does have some good stuff and can get strikeouts. Over the years I've had him on my fantasy team and he'll mow down teams for 3-4 starts at a time and then get shelled the next 2. Very up and down. Maybe something Coop can see and fix. Those type of pitchers can be so valuable ala Rich Hill if they ever figure it out.

 

Jake Peavy: This is more cause I like the guy. But also I wouldn't mind him in the clubhouse talking to the younger guys in Lopez and Kopech (Spring Training) and Giolito, Rodon, Fulmer, etc.

 

 

 

Now that's a lot of guys and obviously we wont get them all, so I'll pick out a few and put together a lineup:

 

CF- Revere

LF - Melky

1B - Abreu

DH - Joey Bats/Morneau/Hamilton (obviously if this is the latter two you move them down in the lineup)

3B - Frazier

2B - Moncada

SS - Anderson

RF - Rasmus

C - Warm Body

 

Out of all those guys -- every one can be on a 1-2 year deal except Abreu/Moncada/Anderson and those guys are who I want to stick around. Joey Bats is the most aggressive signing and riskiest but a middle lineup like Abreu/Bautista/Frazier mashes.

 

Then pitching:

 

Quintana

Rodon

Gonzalez

Holland

De La Rosa

 

Again more pitchers mentioned than we have space for. Probably cut out Peavy. Move Shields to long relief and #6. Undoubtedly someone gets hurt.

You still have Jones and Robertson.

 

It's actually maybe a competitive team in the first half and you can still tear down at any given point this year. Your bench has Lawrie and Tilson and Saladino. You have a very capable OF with Revere and Rasmus chasing balls down. You have infield depth and versatility. A few lotto tickets in the pithcing rotation....

 

I mean, stuck in Sox mediocrity, but could be an 85 win team and doesn't stop you from tearing down at any point.

 

I know I'll get roasted for this post, just devil's advocate. you are signing guys with previous upside to short term deals that you can flip and yet remain competitive keeping somewhat of an upperhand on the trade market.

 

I, for one, don't want another "squint really hard and you can see 85 wins" type of team. That's just going to keep them in that 70-80 win range that usually results in a low top 10-high teens draft pick. The White Sox need to get top 5 picks in the next two drafts, in which they will hopefully be able to draft college position players like Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura.

[ChiSox59]

Yeah while I'm confident they want to rebuild, what if the guys that are here now actually play good enough to compete? Guys who are already here but expected to be dealt plus whoever they add for sign-and-flip candidates on one year deals? And then the guys we call up make an immediate impact? Do they just abandon the rebuild?

 

I don't think they'll abandon the rebuild. I don't think the Sox are going to be disappointed if they somehow compete this year. You can rebuild without losing 100 games. The Sox went from around the 25th best farm to around the 5th best farm in 24 hours. They've already completely changed the complexion of this roster moving forward.

[he gone.]

Don't really want them surrendering a first-round pick for Bautista.

 

TOTALLY forgot about that. Axe Bautista 1000%

 

Morneau or Hamilton wouldn't be bad though. Maybe a Luis Valbuena

[Bob Sacamano]

TOTALLY forgot about that. Axe Bautista 1000%

 

Morneau or Hamilton wouldn't be bad though. Maybe a Luis Valbuena

 

I like these signings. Especially Valbuena if we deal away Frazier.

[he gone.]

Also really didn't think about having a top 5 pick versus 10-15th pick. Also a good point and why I'm not GM. However I'm not sure how much correspondence there is between a top 5 pick becoming a star versus a mid round pick being a star...

 

If you look the guys we traded for you have Kopech who was a sandwich pick and a buncha Latin players which were signed for pennies (OR A s*** ton in Moncada).

 

You look at the Cards and such and they didn't need top 5 picks. I think you need a competent staff making good picks consistently from rounds 2-10 that can be serviceable MLB players and then hitting on a few stars via international and 1st round picks.

[Soxbadger]

Guys, seriously. They're shopping Quintana, Frazier, and others as well. You wouldn't be shopping Jose Quintana if the whole purpose was to dump the Drake distractions. C'mon.

 

Read the post, I said its a "possibility". As of now, they havent traded Quintana.

[bmags]

Guys our major league team will be awful next year. It's like you forgot how bad we were and now take away our cy young finalist and gold glove/all star snubbed outfielder.

[steveno89]

Also really didn't think about having a top 5 pick versus 10-15th pick. Also a good point and why I'm not GM. However I'm not sure how much correspondence there is between a top 5 pick becoming a star versus a mid round pick being a star...

 

If you look the guys we traded for you have Kopech who was a sandwich pick and a buncha Latin players which were signed for pennies (OR A s*** ton in Moncada).

 

You look at the Cards and such and they didn't need top 5 picks. I think you need a competent staff making good picks consistently from rounds 2-10 that can be serviceable MLB players and then hitting on a few stars via international and 1st round picks.

 

There is a steep drop off in talent from the top 5 picks to a pick in the teens. Not to say that you cannot find great players, but picking at the top of the draft gives you the best chances of hitting on top end talent.

 

We ideally want to pick #1 or #2 to land Gray or Beer in the 2018 draft, as both project to be studs

[Dam8610]

Also really didn't think about having a top 5 pick versus 10-15th pick. Also a good point and why I'm not GM. However I'm not sure how much correspondence there is between a top 5 pick becoming a star versus a mid round pick being a star...

 

If you look the guys we traded for you have Kopech who was a sandwich pick and a buncha Latin players which were signed for pennies (OR A s*** ton in Moncada).

 

You look at the Cards and such and they didn't need top 5 picks. I think you need a competent staff making good picks consistently from rounds 2-10 that can be serviceable MLB players and then hitting on a few stars via international and 1st round picks.

 

The higher picks increase the probability that the player they're getting is going to be a franchise altering impact player. 21 teams (including the White Sox) regret passing on Mike Trout, but obviously very few people saw Trout becoming what he is today, or he would've been drafted 1-1 and the Washington Nationals would have far and away the best team in baseball right now. Ultimately it's still about how the team scouts and develops, but having a high pick makes their job easier.

[FT35]

Guys, seriously. They're shopping Quintana, Frazier, and others as well. You wouldn't be shopping Jose Quintana if the whole purpose was to dump the Drake distractions. C'mon.

 

I don't know...If you move the Drake fans--in this particular case, Sale and Eaton, it certainly gives the impression to the league that they are rebuilding since those are pretty core players. You could get tons of calls on guys like Q, Robertson and Abreu that you might not have gotten if people didn't think you were selling everything. But Hahn has only said this was a "process" but has never said he is tearing it all down. He's said he is willing to deal anyone for the right price, but isn't every GM?

 

I've always thought this...how a team stacked full with players with this much value who everyone is willing to mortgage their farm to get (as the Sox have) could be so far away from contending that they would need to wipe everything clean and start over is baffling. I just wonder how much better of a baseball team we will be by simply having a baseball manager? Take last year's roster, fix the bullpen, add another starter and give that talent to someone who knows how to use it instead of Robin. They have taken the patchwork approach because they have had a great core that is relatively cheap and controllable.

 

Trading Sale now after the issues he had with the FO last year combined with the fact that his numbers declined and getting the #1 ranked prospect in baseball was on the table--that's being opportunistic. Dealing Eaton (who also had FO issues) for who we got was well...a no brainer. I still think Robertson is on the block because of Jones' emergence and what some teams who are better positioned to contend THIS YEAR might give up for him. And you might see Frazier go because of his contract--but neither one of those moves would signify a complete tear down. Only if Q and Abreu go would I be convinced a full-out rebuild is actually happening. Otherwise...I'm thinking they are only punting 2017 and setting up to make another run in 2018 with Q, Abreu, Anderson, Moncada, Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Jones and a couple of big name FAs from the huge 2018 FA class. By then, they will be about ready to add Collins and Kopech to that mix in late 2018 for the 2019 season.

 

Of course the market will dictate whether they move Q or Abreu (if someone overpays, then so be it)...but until then, I'm not too sure they aren't just done dealing controllable assets.

[Bob Sacamano]

I've always thought this...how a team stacked full with players with this much value who everyone is willing to mortgage their farm to get (as the Sox have) could be so far away from contending that they would need to wipe everything clean and start over is baffling.

 

Cardinals fan at work asked me the same thing lol "how can one team have so many valuable pieces that almost all teams want and be that bad?" haha

[WBWSF]

Trading off their major pieces is another low point in JRs ownership. At least the White Flag Trade was somewhat justified because they were going to lose the players they traded at the end of the year. Sale + Eaton were tied up for years. And their contracts were very team friendly. It was absolutely nuts to trade them for prospects. I see years of real bad teams on the SouthSide of Chicago. I hope I'm wrong.

[NCsoxfan]

Read the post, I said its a "possibility". As of now, they havent traded Quintana.

 

Sorry, I outright reject that hypothesis. If you're trading 10 war/yr from a 76 win ball club and aren't getting back day 1 ML contributors, you're rebuilding. Could it be possible that they're happy to ALSO rid themselves of the "drake disturbers"? Of course so, but I think that's very secondary. And if I'm wrong, this organization is even more F'ed than I think so today.

[steveno89]

Trading off their major pieces is another low point in JRs ownership. At least the White Flag Trade was somewhat justified because they were going to lose the players they traded at the end of the year. Sale + Eaton were tied up for years. And their contracts were very team friendly. It was absolutely nuts to trade them for prospects. I see years of real bad teams on the SouthSide of Chicago. I hope I'm wrong.

 

The Sox had the top end talent to build a good team, but it was the many holes that were killing the Sox like at DH, C, CF, bullpen, back of rotation, etc. that stood in the way of contending

 

They felt they were unlikely to acquire the necessary pieces to win before Sale hit free agency

 

Starting the rebuild now will put them in a much better position in 2-3 years than if they continued to try and go for it

[SCCWS]

Guys, seriously. They're shopping Quintana, Frazier, and others as well. You wouldn't be shopping Jose Quintana if the whole purpose was to dump the Drake distractions. C'mon.

 

I also doubt they only wanted to unload the undesirables , but if they did we really don't know if they are truly shopping anyone else until they are actually traded.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

The White Sox aren't forfeiting any draft picks. They want to trade everyone. How is this still not clear for people? If Rick Hahn had it his way, he would have made 4 more trades right now. They want to be terrible this year. And they should be.

[bmags]

The White Sox aren't forfeiting any draft picks. They want to trade everyone. How is this still not clear for people? If Rick Hahn had it his way, he would have made 4 more trades right now. They want to be terrible this year. And they should be.

 

Conspiracy theorists.