2017 Hall of Fame

[caulfield12]

2018 ballot- Chipper Jones, Jim Thome are locks.

 

Also on- Rolen, Andruw Jones, Johan Santana, Johnny Damon, Omar Vizquel

 

Vizquel is going to be the new Jack Morris.

 

My 2018 ballot-

Guerrero, Clemens, Bonds, Mussina, Schilling, Manny, McGriff, Chipper, Thome

 

Only 9, but Hoffman is getting in next year along with Vlad, Chipper, and probably Thome.

 

Vizquel will get in...maybe not next year, but the 2nd/3rd year of eligibility.

 

The interesting question now is whether Edgar Martinez or Mussina can make it. Schilling's done, whether you want to blame it on his political views or his relationship with the media, there will be no Jim Rice redemption for him in the end.

 

 

Guerrero's that guy that probably everyone has a moment etched in their brains...for me, it was the 1994 South Atlantic League All-Star game. He had a throw from the warning track in RF to 3B on one bounce...the runner coming into 3rd was strolling in like he had the easiest stand-up triple in the history of the game. He suddenly looked up at the last second, the ball was waiting in the third baseman's glove and he (and the crowd) was absolutely stupefied. We couldn't believe what just happened. It was like a Bo Jackson feat.

 

The other thing that stands out about Guerrero is his ability to hit the ball anywhere inside and outside the strike zone....taking the wildest swings you've ever seen, then the next pitch the ball would be a foot outside or at his shoe tops and he'd be standing on 2nd or 3rd base moments later. He just had such a flair for the game before the knee injuries took their tool on his athleticism later in his career.

[caulfield12]

Andruw doesn't pass the smell test. I know the numbers look great for 10 years and the defense, but, ya know...

 

Vizquel looks like a glove-first Hall of Fame SS. I wouldn't complain if he got in, but the stat nerds are going to be anti-Omar.

 

Easily the best SS since Ozzie Smith, and none have been better since.

 

Not first ballot, but he's the Bill Mazeroski of his generation, plus he played on a number of really good teams during his career, and impacted numerous post-seasons.

[Chisoxfn]

Andruw doesn't pass the smell test. I know the numbers look great for 10 years and the defense, but, ya know...

 

Vizquel looks like a glove-first Hall of Fame SS. I wouldn't complain if he got in, but the stat nerds are going to be anti-Omar.

In terms of Andruw, what is the "ya know" part. He was one of the elite players in the game for a decent size stretch of his career, especially when you factor in his defensive value. He put up a 63 WAR in 17 seasons vs. Tim Raines 69 WAR in 23 seasons. 5 seasons of WARS > 6 and 3 above 8. 10 gold gloves (and deserved gold gloves); 5 ASG's and finished as high as 2nd in the MVP. It seems like his peak he was good elite enough. First ballot, maybe not, but I have a hard time arguing that Andruw Jones shouldn't be in the hall.

 

I also view Vizquel as a HOFer because he is one of the best defensive shortstops I've ever seen (even if his bat was light). The list of defensive shortstops who were better (and had that long of a career) is few and far between.

[Chisoxfn]

Easily the best SS since Ozzie Smith, and none have been better since.

 

Not first ballot, but he's the Bill Mazeroski of his generation, plus he played on a number of really good teams during his career, and impacted numerous post-seasons.

He also developed into a pretty solid hitter later in his career. (OPS won't like him cause he was pretty much a singles hitter, but hey, I think the advanced stats undervalue singles hitters). I know he played for forever, but he's only 123 hits shy of 3000.

[Bananarchy]

Easily the best SS since Ozzie Smith, and none have been better since.

 

Not first ballot, but he's the Bill Mazeroski of his generation, plus he played on a number of really good teams during his career, and impacted numerous post-seasons.

Alex Rodriguez was a better SS than Vizquel. He played 3B to be on a winner, but he was an incredible shortstop.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Sox-35th

[Balta1701]

In terms of Andruw, what is the "ya know" part. He was one of the elite players in the game for a decent size stretch of his career, especially when you factor in his defensive value. He put up a 63 WAR in 17 seasons vs. Tim Raines 69 WAR in 23 seasons. 5 seasons of WARS > 6 and 3 above 8. 10 gold gloves (and deserved gold gloves); 5 ASG's and finished as high as 2nd in the MVP. It seems like his peak he was good elite enough. First ballot, maybe not, but I have a hard time arguing that Andruw Jones shouldn't be in the hall.

 

I also view Vizquel as a HOFer because he is one of the best defensive shortstops I've ever seen (even if his bat was light). The list of defensive shortstops who were better (and had that long of a career) is few and far between.

I will admit I did not live to see Willy Mays play. But out of my lifetime, the exact same sentence you just wrote about Omar Vizquel applies equally to Andruw Jones with the word shortstops replaced by center fielders.

 

Hell, quicky stat comparison - defensive value above average via Fangraphs for the total career, position adjusted and so on, Jones has a higher value than Vizquel, 281-263.

[RockRaines]

I hope the user RockRaines is actually Tim Raines.

I am. And thanks to everyone for the support over the years. I've decided to wear a white SOX to show my appreciation.

[LittleHurt05]

So steroids are OK as long as you played catcher.

[SoxAce]

Jose Canseco was going ballistic on twitter last night.

[oldsox]

I saw Raines play at AAA in Denver. Talk about a "Can't Miss" prospect. Then Expos called him up and put him in outfield. I always felt he should have stayed at second base, at least in those early years. It would have saved his legs from that horrible turf in Montreal. If he had stayed at second, he would have had even greater numbers and would have gone in earlier. IMO.

[Bob Sacamano]

So steroids are OK as long as you played catcher.

 

Apparently haha seriously though, who's the next catcher to get in, Yadier Molina probably?

[ptatc]

Andruw Jones and Omar Vizquel have to have legit shots.

Andruw Jones while very good was never really dominant. I don't think so. Vizquel maybe but borderline.

[3GamesToLove]

By the way, just want to say before it becomes a topic...Raines was a good player for the Sox, but he's not ours. He doesn't deserve to get his number retired or a statue. If the Sox want to have a Tim Raines Day where they give away something, and give him a gift, great. But don't get crazy.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that they give him a statue or retire his number. That's silly.

 

A bobblehead would be cool, though. They did one for La Russa when he got in.

 

Apparently haha seriously though, who's the next catcher to get in, Yadier Molina probably?

 

Yadi's case actually isn't as strong as you might think. Mauer still has a shot, maybe? So good (historic) at his peak, but moving to first will hurt him.

 

Andruw Jones while very good was never really dominant. I don't think so. Vizquel maybe but borderline.

 

Jones has a much better Hall case than Vizquel, IMO. But seeing the way Kenny Lofton and Jim Edmonds (who actually have decent cases) fell off the ballot unceremoniously after one year, maybe chances aren't so good...

Edited January 19, 2017 by 3GamesToLove

[bjm676]

So happy for Tim Raines. That 1993 team now has 3 HOFers on it. Makes you wonder if the wild card system was in place, if other years the Sox would make a deep playoff run.

In any case, I dreaded watching Vlad come up when he played against the Sox. he was such an awesome player and might be the last great Expos to get into the HOF.

It would be nice to Thome get in next year. Vizquel, is a borderline HOF. I read some people last night promoting Scott Rolen too. I don't see that happening, though.

[whitesoxfan99]

I really wish Hoffman had gotten the 5 additional votes and made it in this year to clear some of the backlog and just to get him off the ballot so those votes could go to more deserving players.

[steveno89]

I really wish Hoffman had gotten the 5 additional votes and made it in this year to clear some of the backlog and just to get him off the ballot so those votes could go to more deserving players.

 

Next year you would have to think

 

Hoffman, Guerrero, C Jones and Thome all get in

[Chisoxfn]

Andruw Jones while very good was never really dominant. I don't think so. Vizquel maybe but borderline.

I always viewed his combination of defensive and offensive ability as putting him amongst the elite at the game. I thought he had a run where he was the best CFer in baseball (after Griffey went to Cincy).

[flavum]

I could see Thome coming up short in his first year, like Vlad did.

 

There's no reason not to vote for him, but voters still act like 1st Ballot means something, which is stupid. Either you think the guy belongs in, or you don't.

[oldsox]

I always viewed his combination of defensive and offensive ability as putting him amongst the elite at the game. I thought he had a run where he was the best CFer in baseball (after Griffey went to Cincy).

I remember when Bobby Cox pulled A Jones out of centerfield in the middle of an inning for dogging it on three separate plays in one game. Cox had seen enough.

[daggins]

I could see Thome coming up short in his first year, like Vlad did.

 

There's no reason not to vote for him, but voters still act like 1st Ballot means something, which is stupid. Either you think the guy belongs in, or you don't.

 

I can see a case where it happens, but it seems pretty unlikely. Frank got in his first year and their career numbers are reasonably comparable, no ties to PEDs, and Thome is universally beloved. I think changes in the voter demographic favor his election as well.

[daggins]

With all votes now being public, I think guys like Mussina and Edgar Martinez will see significant bumps as well.

[flavum]

With all votes now being public, I think guys like Mussina and Edgar Martinez will see significant bumps as well.

 

Edgar Martinez will be next year's Hoffman. He'll be real close.

 

Voter group think is a real thing. People who never thought Hoffman deserved it, will vote for him because he's close, and no other reason.

 

I'm not a Hoffman or Edgar guy, but it's going to happen.

[oldsox]

Alex Rodriguez was a better SS than Vizquel. He played 3B to be on a winner, but he was an incredible shortstop.

Arod and Omar should have been on the same team for years (Seattle). Omar was just coming into his own when Seattle signed Arod, so they traded Omar to Cleveland in what is one of the most one-sided trades of all time.

 

Mariners got some horrible shortstop who lasted one year - can't remember his name - who could neither hit or field, and Omar went on to a fabulous career. Joey Cora was the guy who filled in at SS before Arod took over in 1995, I believe.

 

Omar was tremendous, and he broke Aparicio's record for most games played at Short. He needs to be in the Hall.

Edited January 19, 2017 by oldsox

[daggins]

Edgar Martinez will be next year's Hoffman. He'll be real close.

 

Voter group think is a real thing. People who never thought Hoffman deserved it, will vote for him because he's close, and no other reason.

 

I'm not a Hoffman or Edgar guy, but it's going to happen.

 

Yeah, i've seen talk that EMart will be the new Raines - a guy with a solid case who is championed by younger, more internet savvy voters.

 

In some ways it's problematic that BBWAA voters are feeling pressure due to prevailing politics, but on the other hand, there are a lot of deserving players left out because, previously, there was no pressure to not just turn in a blank ballot every year - including one player that Sox fans are very familiar with.