Sox holding talks "daily" on Q

[ChiSox59]

I don't think it's as much 'too much pitching' as it is 'not enough hitters' in the system. I'm also in the camp that if the Sox can't get a legit bluechip hitting prospect to headline a trade, then I'd rather hold on to Quintana for now.

 

Pretty much where I stand too at this point.

[harfman77]

It is also really obvious that not all position players will hit. Talking about guys like Collins, Moncada, Basabe, etc is nice, but some of those guys will bust as well. We need nine position players to fill a starting line up. We need just as many position players to fill out a roster as we do pitchers.

 

If we want to learn one lesson from what the Cubs did it shouldn't be that these things are fail safe, it is that young position players are getting harder and harder to find to fill a roster with. It should also be completely obvious from the last 10 years where we spent year after year trying to find a 2B or a 3B, or a C, or OF's that it isn't as easy as people seem to think it is. Otherwise we wouldn't have failed to do it for the last 10 years.

 

Sure, the Cubs built up there position players, but they also failed to develop any pitching. They caught a break when Arrieta started pitching up to his prospect pedigree and went out and spent money on Lester, Lackey, and Hammels to fill in the holes in their roster. The Sox are going to have to spend money to fill in gaps in the future either in the rotation or in the field, the advantage they have now compared the past few seasons is that they have been hamstrung in FA as they hovered around their max payroll. Now with a cost controlled rotation and a few cost controlled batters they will have more money in FA to pursue their primary targets.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Your feeling of never having too much pitching isn't invalid...except this time.

 

If you're lucky, these guys pan out. Hard to imagine any are as dominant as Sale, but hopefully they are. Both Sale and Q were top 10 WAR arms, which has been mentioned over and over. WAR isn't the end-all and be-all, but for the sake of discussion that is what you're shooting for.

 

So lets say two of them do. You're in a worse situation than we were the last several years. Because once Abreu/Frazier/etc are gone and Eaton already is - you've replaced it with one guy, Moncada.

 

Now I'm sure you're thinking that this rotation will be deeper but that still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of this organization, which is their inability to develop hitting.

 

You needed hitting prospects. Fine. You maxed out on arms, and that has tremendous potential value, but my god man. You desperately need star-power hitting. And advanced hitting at that. Not projects like Basabe.

 

Sit and point your finger at the lack of success from the guys you mentioned, but it won't mean s*** when we still cannot score runs. Gonzalez pitched well last season. So you had 4 good to great starters last season - with much better hitting than what 2018-2019 projects to be.

 

This is your last big bullet and you need hitting. End of story. If you settle for more arms because its the best value, so be it, but Hahn better know something we don't about out payroll for those years and you better be spending it on offense because you cannot put together a team with 10 starters. Sorry bud - not how baseball works.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you totally missed my point.

 

I said: "I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc."

 

They absolutely need to get 2 of the 3 hitters I listed and/or Meadows...and if they don't, it's a failure. I don't want a package comprised of pitching only, which is what you seem to think I want.

 

I also think the Sox will be active trying to acquire a hitter in free agency or through a trade in a couple years in the rebuild is going well.

Edited January 9, 2017 by ChiSoxFanMike

[Bob Sacamano]

It couldn't seem more obvious that we need to get positional player talent back. We can't just assume guys like Basabe will succeed or even that Anderson is going to continue to do well (see Beckham's first year). Right now, there are two guys I think we can count on to produce - Collins and Moncada (and even they are not proven). Aside from that, 7 other positions need to be filled. We are pretty set on pitching prospects at this point. Need a position player headliner or don't trade Quintana because we have him for 4 more years.

 

Cubs went all in on position player talent. Got lucky w/ Arrieta, and pretty pretty much bought the rest of their staff...

 

Easier to do than trying to spend on a lineup: 9 (8 in NL) spots vs 5.

Edited January 9, 2017 by soxfan2014

[southsider2k5]

Sure, the Cubs built up there position players, but they also failed to develop any pitching. They caught a break when Arrieta started pitching up to his prospect pedigree and went out and spent money on Lester, Lackey, and Hammels to fill in the holes in their roster. The Sox are going to have to spend money to fill in gaps in the future either in the rotation or in the field, the advantage they have now compared the past few seasons is that they have been hamstrung in FA as they hovered around their max payroll. Now with a cost controlled rotation and a few cost controlled batters they will have more money in FA to pursue their primary targets.

 

Which is another area where the White Sox have failed catastrophically in recent years.

[southsider2k5]

Easier to do than trying to spend on a lineup: 9 (8 in NL) spots vs 5.

 

It is also why the Sox rebuild is more likely to fail than the Cubs. Cubs fans allowed them to spend during their rebuild. That isn't going to happen here.

[illinilaw08]

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but you totally missed my point.

 

I said: "I'm absolutely okay with the Sox acquiring Glasnow/Keller if they get Bell, Newman, Hayes, etc."

 

They absolutely need to get 2 of the 3 hitters I listed and/or Meadows...and if they don't, it's a failure. I don't want a package comprised of pitching only, which is what you seem to think I want.

 

I also think the Sox will be active trying to acquire a hitter in free agency or through a trade in a couple years in the rebuild is going well.

 

That's the important point that people are glossing over. Newman would be either the 2nd or 3rd best hitting prospect in the Sox system (depending on how you feel about Collins). And Hayes would be either 4th or 5th (depending on how you feel about Basabe). I don't think anyone is advocating the Sox trade Q for Glasnow, Keller and additional arms.

 

I also fail to see how Glasnow, Newman, Hayes, and let's say Diaz is a worse position player package than Martes, Tucker, Fisher and Laureano (the most reasonable hitting heavy package the Sox could expect from the Astros). Unless the Yankees or the Cubs jump in, or the Pirates budge on Meadows, the first piece is going to be a pitcher.

[pablo]

That's the important point that people are glossing over. Newman would be either the 2nd or 3rd best hitting prospect in the Sox system (depending on how you feel about Collins). And Hayes would be either 4th or 5th (depending on how you feel about Basabe). I don't think anyone is advocating the Sox trade Q for Glasnow, Keller and additional arms.

 

I also fail to see how Glasnow, Newman, Hayes, and let's say Diaz is a worse position player package than Martes, Tucker, Fisher and Laureano (the most reasonable hitting heavy package the Sox could expect from the Astros). Unless the Yankees or the Cubs jump in, or the Pirates budge on Meadows, the first piece is going to be a pitcher.

 

In that scenario, it comes down to who do you like better - Tucker or Newman? And I'm taking Tucker hands down. The only reason he is/was ranked in the 50's last year is because he is younger. In a year or two we might be talking about Tucker in the same way we are talking about Meadows. Depending on who you talk to Martes and Glasgow is likely a wash

[iamshack]

It is also why the Sox rebuild is more likely to fail than the Cubs. Cubs fans allowed them to spend during their rebuild. That isn't going to happen here.

The Cubs have primarily spent on TWO players that the Sox probably wouldn't have.

 

1) Lester is something we will try to develop internally; and

2) Heyward has really not contributed significantly to their success.

 

I'm not trying to glaze over the value of an TOR by any means, but that is exactly what we've been acquiring in regards to prospects in these deals.

 

If you want to talk about how the Cubs rebuild has been different, stick with their focus on positional talent because of their belief that it is more projectable.

[Con te Giolito]

Again, if everything works well, you haven't created a sticky situation. There will be always be innings, and the game is changing. The days of 5 starters is going by the boards. Guys at the beginning of their careers are usually on innings limits. Some guy, if needed, could be a guy who goes 3 or 4 innings in the middle. Putting guys in the bullpen is not giving up on them. The game is changing. Bullpens are becoming even more important.

 

How much value did Giolito lose struggling initially? Rodon struggled, how much trade value did he lose?

This move to multi-inning bullpen guys and "firemen" is just a reaction to the growing scarcity of good starting pitching. How many starters around the league can get through a lineup 3 times who dont have ticking bombs in their elbows or shoulders? Maybe 50? Of whom about half you would start in a playoff game with enthusiasm.

 

This stockpiling of arms is an attempt to get five and put them all in the same rotation. If the Sox can do that, add in a top closer (Burdi) plus a couple decent relief arms and keep everyone healthy its gamebreaking. Lotta ifs, but I get what they are up to.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

The Cubs have primarily spent on TWO players that the Sox probably wouldn't have.

 

1) Lester is something we will try to develop internally; and

2) Heyward has really not contributed significantly to their success.

 

I'm not trying to glaze over the value of an TOR by any means, but that is exactly what we've been acquiring in regards to prospects in these deals.

 

If you want to talk about how the Cubs rebuild has been different, stick with their focus on positional talent because of their belief that it is more projectable.

Sox wouldn't have spent on Lackey, and haven't the Cubs spent a lot more on international draftees? They spent on Torres, which led them to Chapman.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Al Lopez's Ghost

[Buehrlesque]

I don't know, the Yankees seemed to find a way to inject some youth into their system this summer by giving up two RP's. Teams will give up young talent for players when they are motivated. With the Sox as clear sellers this summer, they may be able to find some teams that are willing to overpay to try and compete in October.

Can we stop for a second to acknowledge this: The Yankees acquired Frazier for 2.5 years of a relief pitcher, and Torres for half a season of a relief pitcher. First of all, what an extraordinary strike of good fortune. Second, how strange that, a few months later, both seem off the table for four years of a starting pitcher!! Yes, the Indians/Cubs and Yankees were in different situations, but still. Should be able to give some better perspective on Quintana's trade value and market.

[Lillian]

Can we stop for a second to acknowledge this: The Yankees acquired Frazier for 2.5 years of a relief pitcher, and Torres for half a season of a relief pitcher. First of all, what an extraordinary strike of good fortune. Second, how strange that, a few months later, both seem off the table for four years of a starting pitcher!! Yes, the Indians/Cubs and Yankees were in different situations, but still. Should be able to give some better perspective on Quintana's trade value and market.

 

Very well put, and a compelling argument.

[Chicago White Sox]

It is also why the Sox rebuild is more likely to fail than the Cubs. Cubs fans allowed them to spend during their rebuild. That isn't going to happen here.

How much of our total revenue comes from attendance and other day of game streams? How much of our attendance comes from season ticket holders and how many of them are going to leave? We're no doubt going to take a revenue hit, but it may a lot smaller than you're anticipating. And when you factor that our payroll obligations will almost non-existent, we should have plenty of money to work with in free agency IMO.

[iamshack]

Sox wouldn't have spent on Lackey, and haven't the Cubs spent a lot more on international draftees?

Why not?

 

And the Cubs have spent on international players, but that is nothing the Sox cannot do with a significantly reduced MLB payroll.

[Bob Sacamano]

Can we stop for a second to acknowledge this: The Yankees acquired Frazier for 2.5 years of a relief pitcher, and Torres for half a season of a relief pitcher. First of all, what an extraordinary strike of good fortune. Second, how strange that, a few months later, both seem off the table for four years of a starting pitcher!! Yes, the Indians/Cubs and Yankees were in different situations, but still. Should be able to give some better perspective on Quintana's trade value and market.

 

Goes to show you how in it the Yankees are. I don't think they are involved as much as others on here seem to think. If I were Yankees, I'd try to sign some stop gap types and look to flip veterans (like Tanaka if healthy and good) at the deadline while allowing the kids time in the MLB to develop more. Then go add 2 SP next off-season (maybe go after Tanaka again since there won't be compensation on him) and keep all the young talent you've horded for the 1.5 years.

Edited January 9, 2017 by soxfan2014

[turnin' two]

Why not?

 

And the Cubs have spent on international players, but that is nothing the Sox cannot do with a significantly reduced MLB payroll.

 

 

It is actually, the CBA changed this year and my understanding is that there is a hard cap on international signings.

[SoxSteve]

It is also why the Sox rebuild is more likely to fail than the Cubs. Cubs fans allowed them to spend during their rebuild. That isn't going to happen here.

Yea but the Cubs didnt have a Sale and Quintana to trade for prospects. Or a Eaton, Frazier, Robertson, jones, Cabreara or Abrue. In fact no team in the last 40 years had 2 cost controlled top left handed pitchers to trade. NEVER!! Plus now with the international signing cap we can be on equal footing with teams like the Cubs, Dodgers, Redsox and Yankees. Not taking anything away from Theo he did a Awesome job of drafting and trading but the comparison about the Cubs and Sox rebuild has no merit. Different ways going about it.

[rowand's rowdies]

Seems like it's a 2 horse race now. I think the Astros offer up a slightly lesser package to the one they supposedly offered for Archer as their final offer. Hahn goes back to the Pirates and says it's Meadows, Glasnow & Newman or he's going to Houston. I think the Pirates cave and agree. He's more valuable to PIT than HOU ultimately. I'd like to see Q on PIT. I'd watch them this year and hope they can compete with the Cubs.

[southsider2k5]

Why not?

 

And the Cubs have spent on international players, but that is nothing the Sox cannot do with a significantly reduced MLB payroll.

 

They can't anymore anyway. The Rules have changed, and the Sox are in the small cap room bunch even.

[Y2Jimmy0]

They can't anymore anyway. The Rules have changed, and the Sox are in the small cap room bunch even.

 

 

They can spend up to $8.3 million every year but they need to trade for $3.5 million in space to do so.

[bmags]

Funny thing about cubs is they are the only team to ever get good again on young players and also only team model to ever have success.

[harfman77]

Which is another area where the White Sox have failed catastrophically in recent years.

 

Definitely, but they have been trying to fill 3 holes every year on a limited budget, now when they are looking to full three holes they are going to have $70M to spend instead of 10. Another piece to consider is that due to the Sox stadium, it is almost impossible to attract FA pitching to the team without a serious overpay. Hitters are easier to attract due to the bandbox reputation.

[southsider2k5]

Funny thing about cubs is they are the only team to ever get good again on young players and also only team model to ever have success.

 

I am glad you said that. Realistically our rebuild, if it succeeds, will look much more like Pittsburgh or Kansas City, both of whom are already seeing their windows closing. Pittsburgh and KC both had narrow windows with which to bring in talent before their lack of resources meant that players would be leaving and their times at the top ending. There wasn't a lot of extra money to spend into the talent arriving to extend that window.

[southsider2k5]

Definitely, but they have been trying to fill 3 holes every year on a limited budget, now when they are looking to full three holes they are going to have $70M to spend instead of 10. Another piece to consider is that due to the Sox stadium, it is almost impossible to attract FA pitching to the team without a serious overpay. Hitters are easier to attract due to the bandbox reputation.

 

I never see a scenario where the Sox are outspending the Yankees, Cubs, and Dodgers of the world to obtain the top talent. The gap has gotten to be so large there. We have historically been great at being runners up in those areas, at best.