Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:58 AM) "Elite" is a relative term Every organization evaluates prospects differently The Quintana trade negotiations clearly have gone differently than the Eaton or Sale deals, but that doesn't mean a framework can't be figured out A Pirates blog said Pittsburgh should offer Glasnow/Newman/Craig and get a deal done. I do not think the White Sox accept that offer. No, the White Sox should not accept that offer. "3 elite prospects" doesn't even have to be the truth. You could easily find ways the White Sox would accept less than 3 elite prospects for an elite player - for example, we got 2 elite prospects back for Chris Sale. I've said this a couple times now, when you start a negotiation you're supposed to ask for something a team will say no to, but not something so high they won't come back if there's a deal to be done. If you're the White Sox, you ask the Yankees for "Torres, Frazier, and Rutherford" to start off. Why? Because if the Yankees say yes you want to walk away astonished about what you got. In response to that ask, if there was a deal to be made, the Yankees would respond "We're not doing all 3 of those, but Torres and Rutherford we would do". The White Sox would then respond "We need more than that, add in player x" and a few rounds would go back and forth. You might darn well not call pieces 3 and 4 elite prospects, or heck even position 2 in the deal perhaps. The Yankees leaked or stated the White Sox initial ask and said how that was too high. Of course it was too high, because they never counteroffered. What does it mean that they leaked this but didn't counteroffer? The Yankees want their fans to know they talked about the player so that they believe the Yanks tried to improve the team, but they actually aren't ready to make a move for Quintana and pay a fair price for him. So no, people should stop saying the "3 elite prospects" line, because that's a negotiation line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:11 AM) No, the White Sox should not accept that offer. "3 elite prospects" doesn't even have to be the truth. You could easily find ways the White Sox would accept less than 3 elite prospects for an elite player - for example, we got 2 elite prospects back for Chris Sale. I've said this a couple times now, when you start a negotiation you're supposed to ask for something a team will say no to, but not something so high they won't come back if there's a deal to be done. If you're the White Sox, you ask the Yankees for "Torres, Frazier, and Rutherford" to start off. Why? Because if the Yankees say yes you want to walk away astonished about what you got. In response to that ask, if there was a deal to be made, the Yankees would respond "We're not doing all 3 of those, but Torres and Rutherford we would do". The White Sox would then respond "We need more than that, add in player x" and a few rounds would go back and forth. You might darn well not call pieces 3 and 4 elite prospects, or heck even position 2 in the deal perhaps. The Yankees leaked or stated the White Sox initial ask and said how that was too high. Of course it was too high, because they never counteroffered. What does it mean that they leaked this but didn't counteroffer? The Yankees want their fans to know they talked about the player so that they believe the Yanks tried to improve the team, but they actually aren't ready to make a move for Quintana and pay a fair price for him. So no, people should stop saying the "3 elite prospects" line, because that's a negotiation line. It's pretty clear the Yankees are not going to deal Torres and/or Frazier. These are the two gems in their system that they will almost assuredly hang on to. If they weren't in on Sale with those two guys, they won't offer him for Quintana. So yes, if Hahn asked for one or both (unlikely) for Q, then fine but the talks shouldn't have automatically stopped there when the Yankees said no. The Yankees have genuine interest in Quintana - there is no doubt about that. Their rotation after this season is a mess and needs someone like Quintana to anchor it in 2018 and beyond. Contrary to popular opinion around here, I doubt the Yankees will go out to spend on pitching this offseason because they have set their sights on Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Kershaw etc in 2018 offseason. Therefore the only way to upgrade the rotation without spending money is via trade for Q, Archer, or Gray (if a rebound happens). A depth deal involving Mateo, Rutherford, Kaprelian/Sheffield as the headliners rivals just about any offers we could get from Pirates/Astros/Braves unless one of those teams ups their offer and doesn't gut the Yankees farm system. Hahn should work hard to keep the Yankees engaged on Q because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:11 AM) No, the White Sox should not accept that offer. "3 elite prospects" doesn't even have to be the truth. You could easily find ways the White Sox would accept less than 3 elite prospects for an elite player - for example, we got 2 elite prospects back for Chris Sale. I've said this a couple times now, when you start a negotiation you're supposed to ask for something a team will say no to, but not something so high they won't come back if there's a deal to be done. If you're the White Sox, you ask the Yankees for "Torres, Frazier, and Rutherford" to start off. Why? Because if the Yankees say yes you want to walk away astonished about what you got. In response to that ask, if there was a deal to be made, the Yankees would respond "We're not doing all 3 of those, but Torres and Rutherford we would do". The White Sox would then respond "We need more than that, add in player x" and a few rounds would go back and forth. You might darn well not call pieces 3 and 4 elite prospects, or heck even position 2 in the deal perhaps. The Yankees leaked or stated the White Sox initial ask and said how that was too high. Of course it was too high, because they never counteroffered. What does it mean that they leaked this but didn't counteroffer? The Yankees want their fans to know they talked about the player so that they believe the Yanks tried to improve the team, but they actually aren't ready to make a move for Quintana and pay a fair price for him. So no, people should stop saying the "3 elite prospects" line, because that's a negotiation line. I'm sure the White Sox started with a high ask, and New York countered with prospects like: Mateo, Judge, etc. while keeping guys like Torres/Frazier/Rutherford off the table Sounds like the Pirates are tying to sell the Glasnow/Newman headlined package, while keeping Meadows/Bell off the table. That is not going to work for the Sox. Newman is a good prospect, but his value is tied to him sticking at SS. His 30 grade power does not play well at 2B or 3B. I'd love him as a third piece in a deal, not a headliner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (pablo @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:27 AM) It's pretty clear the Yankees are not going to deal Torres and/or Frazier. These are the two gems in their system that they will almost assuredly hang on to. If they weren't in on Sale with those two guys, they won't offer him for Quintana. So yes, if Hahn asked for one or both (unlikely) for Q, then fine but the talks shouldn't have automatically stopped there when the Yankees said no. The Yankees have genuine interest in Quintana - there is no doubt about that. Their rotation after this season is a mess and needs someone like Quintana to anchor it in 2018 and beyond. Contrary to popular opinion around here, I doubt the Yankees will go out to spend on pitching this offseason because they have set their sights on Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Kershaw etc in 2018 offseason. Therefore the only way to upgrade the rotation without spending money is via trade for Q, Archer, or Gray (if a rebound happens). A depth deal involving Mateo, Rutherford, Kaprelian/Sheffield as the headliners rivals just about any offers we could get from Pirates/Astros/Braves unless one of those teams ups their offer and doesn't gut the Yankees farm system. Hahn should work hard to keep the Yankees engaged on Q because of that. Mateo's stock is down in my opinion after a lackluster 2016 I'd much rather deal for prospects that have an upward trajectory (Kopech) I feel that Yankees prospects are perpetually overrated as well. Not saying one specific player, but in general. Sox won't be fleeced with a Mateo + Judge + pitcher offer when none of those guys pan out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (pablo @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 10:27 AM) It's pretty clear the Yankees are not going to deal Torres and/or Frazier. These are the two gems in their system that they will almost assuredly hang on to. If they weren't in on Sale with those two guys, they won't offer him for Quintana. So yes, if Hahn asked for one or both (unlikely) for Q, then fine but the talks shouldn't have automatically stopped there when the Yankees said no. The Yankees have genuine interest in Quintana - there is no doubt about that. Their rotation after this season is a mess and needs someone like Quintana to anchor it in 2018 and beyond. Contrary to popular opinion around here, I doubt the Yankees will go out to spend on pitching this offseason because they have set their sights on Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Kershaw etc in 2018 offseason. Therefore the only way to upgrade the rotation without spending money is via trade for Q, Archer, or Gray (if a rebound happens). A depth deal involving Mateo, Rutherford, Kaprelian/Sheffield as the headliners rivals just about any offers we could get from Pirates/Astros/Braves unless one of those teams ups their offer and doesn't gut the Yankees farm system. Hahn should work hard to keep the Yankees engaged on Q because of that. The Yankees aren't going to pay the price for Quintana right now. If the Yankees say no to that offer, the White Sox shouldn't come back and drop the price. That's not how negotiation works. If the Yankees aren't willing to deal one of those two gems then the Yankees aren't a deal matchup. We can't make them want to deal them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:37 AM) The Yankees aren't going to pay the price for Quintana right now. If the Yankees say no to that offer, the White Sox shouldn't come back and drop the price. That's not how negotiation works. If the Yankees aren't willing to deal one of those two gems then the Yankees aren't a deal matchup. We can't make them want to deal them. You can't just eliminate a trade partner because you aren't getting exactly what you want especially considering the Yankees have enough in their farm system after Torres/Frazier to get something done. You keep them around to drive up the price for other teams or possibly work out a package that does fit what you like. Maybe you talk the Yankees into wanting Q so much that they include Frazier. This is all assuming there is mutual interest which I think there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCsoxfan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Yoan Moncada was traded plus much more, don't tell me that Clint fricking Frazier can't be deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (pablo @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 09:59 AM) You can't just eliminate a trade partner because you aren't getting exactly what you want especially considering the Yankees have enough in their farm system after Torres/Frazier to get something done. You keep them around to drive up the price for other teams or possibly work out a package that does fit what you like. Maybe you talk the Yankees into wanting Q so much that they include Frazier. This is all assuming there is mutual interest which I think there is. I disagree. The Yankees have a good farm, but not enough in my opinion if Torres and Frazier are off the table. One of those players at a minimum would have to be included otherwise their package would easily be beat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 There's not a doubt in my mind Quintana is traded by spring training. I think any of Bautista, Saunders, Trumbo, Wieters signing could get things moving faster (I think the Rockies are in on Wieters and Trumbo but could move to Quintana if they lose out on either). I also bet that any deal on the table now is pretty good, but Hahn wants better. Quintana's value won't be any higher than it is now. The free agent market next season is full of good pitchers, which means that a lot of them could become available at the trade deadline as well. The QO penalty has changed, so there will be more demand for the free agent pitchers since there is no risk in losing a first round pick. Quintana will have less control once the season starts and there are the risks of injury and regression that would bring down his value. You can take that risk with Jones, Abreu, Frazier and Robertson, but not with Quintana, whose trade is going to be very crucial to the success of this rebuild. I bet the Pirates, Braves, Astros and Yankees have all offered at least one top 3 prospect plus others. None of them have another direction to take for a SP, so there is no risk that they'll take their offer off the table or those prospects will no longer be available. So Hahn can only benefit by waiting. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Starting to like Travis Demeritte as a piece in a Braves proposal. Long swing but legit power and good walk rate. Bad k rate. Decent reports on him as a fielder. Seems every bit the prospect as Andujar though obviously Andujar made it to AA. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 10:52 AM) I disagree. The Yankees have a good farm, but not enough in my opinion if Torres and Frazier are off the table. One of those players at a minimum would have to be included otherwise their package would easily be beat The Yankees are a team that could make up for things with quantity. I mean you could do something like Mateo, Rutherford, Judge, Andujar, Sheffield, , and there are still players like Kapperlein, Winlkleman Garcia, Billy McKinney, that could be included to end a deal that would be huge shot to the Sox program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I think underrated part of the "wait until deadline" crowd is these are the exact teams you'd want in on Q with the exception of the Dodgers and Rockies. Three of Pirates/Yankees/Astros/Braves all "in" on Q is about as good as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peavy44 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 https://t.co/Be5NXaCWNt Good read by Brian Bilek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 10:58 AM) The Yankees are a team that could make up for things with quantity. I mean you could do something like Mateo, Rutherford, Judge, Andujar, Sheffield, , and there are still players like Kapperlein, Winlkleman Garcia, Billy McKinney, that could be included to end a deal that would be huge shot to the Sox program. Perhaps, but I don't see the Yankees giving up either Torres/Frazier or a huge depth package that harms their farm system. They can trade high bust risk prospects like Mateo and Judge plus an arm, but don't expect them to move a significant amount of prospects. I see that Yankees being out unless top guys are on the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (peavy44 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) https://t.co/Be5NXaCWNt Good read by Brian Bilek There's already a thread about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (peavy44 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:00 AM) https://t.co/Be5NXaCWNt Good read by Brian Bilek You mean the post that's pinned to the top of the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Who is this Brian Bilek clown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:22 AM) Who is this Brian Bilek clown? Some punk blogger who lives in his mom's basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:30 AM) Some punk blogger who lives in his mom's basement. Yeah who obviously has no connections who work for the White Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FT35 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Trying to come up with a decent MLB comp for Austin Meadows if he develops the way he should...curious to see what you all think. Solve: Austin Meadows >/= Adam Eaton? Austin Meadows >/= Grady Sizemore? Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (FT35 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:46 AM) Trying to come up with a decent MLB comp for Austin Meadows if he develops the way he should...curious to see what you all think. Solve: Austin Meadows >/= Adam Eaton? Austin Meadows >/= Grady Sizemore? Any other ideas? Meadows ceiling is a .300 avg - 20 home run - .360 obp - very good CF defense player. An All star I have also seen Scott Van Slyke comps...and Van Slyke arguably put up better minor league numbers as well. http://www.baseball-reference.com/register...id=vansly001sco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (FT35 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:46 AM) Trying to come up with a decent MLB comp for Austin Meadows if he develops the way he should...curious to see what you all think. Solve: Austin Meadows >/= Adam Eaton? Austin Meadows >/= Grady Sizemore? Any other ideas? Grady Sizemore was a hell of a player. Too bad injuries really did him in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez's Ghost Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 So Meadows projects to be a better center fielder than Rob Mackowiak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (Al Lopez's Ghost @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:50 AM) So Meadows projects to be a better center fielder than Rob Mackowiak? Too bad that guy couldn't play defense. I just looked at his offensive numbers and they look solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 13, 2017 -> 11:56 AM) Too bad that guy couldn't play defense. I just looked at his offensive numbers and they look solid. Different offensive environment, he was a below average hitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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