Can somebody please explain the Scandinavian aspirations?

[Jerksticks]

Why do so many people, including our current president, always say something to the effect of "Look at Finland, Sweden & Norway- they do this social program correctly! We should emulate that!"

 

I don't get it at all. How is that ever a logical talking point as far as emulation?

 

I'm down for being convinced otherwise- just curious for opinions contrary to mine.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jerksticks

[caulfield12]

Because they have consistently higher math and science scores than US students. They prioritize education. They don't accept teachers for certification programs who aren't in the top ten percent of their classes. They pay those teachers an upper middle class salary so they don't have to work two jobs or teach summer school.

 

Second, how can the greatest country in the world with the best doctors, medical schools and modern technology/equipment have such poor outcomes?

 

In those countries, the pharmaceutical and insurance companies don't overrun the system and blow up costs. Heck, even in Canada, Mexico or Cuba the same drugs are 10-15% of the cost for the same drug in America. How is that logical? How can we be back to aspiring to be a country where only the rich and upper medical class have access to quality health care under the GOP?

 

How is our prison system logical, compared to that of Norway?

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways...cessful-2014-12

 

Read this article or refer to Michael Moore's Where Do We Invade Next?

 

 

Can you argue that our education, health care and prison systems are better in any measureable way than those countries?

 

A final argument. Those countries (along with Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Singapore, etc.) always end up higher on "happiness/living standards" surveys. How do you explain why this has consistently been the case for a couple of decades DESPITE the winter weather that citizens from that region of the world have to suffer through for 5-6 months every year?

 

 

Or just use your eyes. People there participate in sports year round...even in the winter. Much better physical conditioning. It's that Nordic look that was the Aryan model so desired by the Nazis/Hitler. Of course, aesthetics is always going to be subjective...but most people in Middle America could learn a thing or two from the diets and nutrition regimens of people from lots of areas outside the US.

Edited January 12, 2017 by caulfield12

[pettie4sox]

caulfield pretty much summed it up pretty well.

 

The US should not emulate those countries with the type of resources we have, we should exceed them.

 

Sure, the US is still the primary go to place in the world for immigration but we absolutely can do better. That being said, our politicians are to blame for the failures of our country and the people who elect them as well.

 

edit: I feel like the US attitude is "I got mine, now go f*** yourself!"

Edited January 12, 2017 by KagakuOtoko

[ptatc]

Because they have consistently higher math and science scores than US students. They prioritize education. They don't accept teachers for certification programs who aren't in the top ten percent of their classes. They pay those teachers an upper middle class salary so they don't have to work two jobs or teach summer school.

 

Second, how can the greatest country in the world with the best doctors, medical schools and modern technology/equipment have such poor outcomes?

 

In those countries, the pharmaceutical and insurance companies don't overrun the system and blow up costs. Heck, even in Canada, Mexico or Cuba the same drugs are 10-15% of the cost for the same drug in America. How is that logical? How can we be back to aspiring to be a country where only the rich and upper medical class have access to quality health care under the GOP?

 

How is our prison system logical, compared to that of Norway?

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways...cessful-2014-12

 

Read this article or refer to Michael Moore's Where Do We Invade Next?

 

 

Can you argue that our education, health care and prison systems are better in any measureable way than those countries?

 

A final argument. Those countries (along with Australia, Canada, Switzerland, Singapore, etc.) always end up higher on "happiness/living standards" surveys. How do you explain why this has consistently been the case for a couple of decades DESPITE the winter weather that citizens from that region of the world have to suffer through for 5-6 months every year?

 

 

Or just use your eyes. People there participate in sports year round...even in the winter. Much better physical conditioning. It's that Nordic look that was the Aryan model so desired by the Nazis/Hitler. Of course, aesthetics is always going to be subjective...but most people in Middle America could learn a thing or two from the diets and nutrition regimens of people from lots of areas outside the US.

There are two significant differences in the medical system between the US and countries like Sweden. The first is the medical malpractice. The US uses a tort system with all of the litigation as we know it. It is very costly and dramatically raises malpractice insurance thus raises healthcare costs. The "no tort" version in Sweden is much less costly and more efficient but also severely limits the patient's options for getting compensation for medical malpractice.

 

This leads to the second difference. The regulations for medical practice are much more strict with the FDA in the US as opposed to the other countries. So what you see in essence is that the other countries are using medical and pharmaceutical practices there that aren't approved here. If that new techniques doesn't work there, they have limited compensation. If the same thing was tried here, it would be in litigation for years. So what happens is that the new techniques are tried there, they work out the bugs in the technique, without the cost of litigation, and they are perfected here. This is why the people in those countries who can afford it come to the US for the surgeries because they aren't experimental here.

 

 

 

[Bananarchy]

A couple of things I really like about Scandinavian civics/politics

1) Elementary schools in Finland spend most of their 6 hour school day playing, doing activities, or at lunch

2) In Norway, the prison system is designed to protect the inmates. The longest sentence in the Norwegian penal system is 21 years at which point the inmate is free unless the state can prove he/she is not rehabilitated.

[ptatc]

A couple of things I really like about Scandinavian civics/politics

1) Elementary schools in Finland spend most of their 6 hour school day playing, doing activities, or at lunch

2) In Norway, the prison system is designed to protect the inmates. The longest sentence in the Norwegian penal system is 21 years at which point the inmate is free unless the state can prove he/she is not rehabilitated.

There are only 3 states which require elementary schools to even give a regular scheduled recess to students. It's just a shame.

[caulfield12]

There are two significant differences in the medical system between the US and countries like Sweden. The first is the medical malpractice. The US uses a tort system with all of the litigation as we know it. It is very costly and dramatically raises malpractice insurance thus raises healthcare costs. The "no tort" version in Sweden is much less costly and more efficient but also severely limits the patient's options for getting compensation for medical malpractice.

 

This leads to the second difference. The regulations for medical practice are much more strict with the FDA in the US as opposed to the other countries. So what you see in essence is that the other countries are using medical and pharmaceutical practices there that aren't approved here. If that new techniques doesn't work there, they have limited compensation. If the same thing was tried here, it would be in litigation for years. So what happens is that the new techniques are tried there, they work out the bugs in the technique, without the cost of litigation, and they are perfected here. This is why the people in those countries who can afford it come to the US for the surgeries because they aren't experimental here.

 

I still think the protections provided huge multinational drug companies like Mylan with the Epipen patent are surely not in the best interests of the public.

 

If you can prove xx amount of research and development dollars has gone into a new cutting-edge drug that changes the world, fine. There have to be incentives for private companies to innovate and be protected. Capitalism and all.

 

On the other hand are drugs or treatments like the example above...or the Martin Shkreli case, where enough is enough. There has to be a balancing. Just like consumer protection agencies determine a "fair and reasonable" amount of interest on credit cards versus usury rates.

 

There has to be some type of compromise in the middle where consumers are protected as well as shareholders.

Edited January 12, 2017 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

I still think the protections provided huge multinational drug companies like Mylan with the Epipen patent are surely not in the interests of the public.

 

If you can prove xx amount of research and development dollars has gone into a new cutting-edge drug that changes the world, fine. There have to be incentives for private companies to innovate and be protected. Capitalism and all.

 

On the other hand are drugs or treatments like the example above...or the Martin Shkreli case, where enough is enough. There has to be a balancing. Just like consumer protection agencies determine a "fair and reasonable" amount of interest on credit cards versus usury rates.

 

There has to be some type of compromise in the middle where consumers are protected as well as shareholders.

This topic is more along the lines of free enterprise and governmental economic rules and regulations as opposed to medical issues.

 

for the credit card issue, this should be on the person applying for the card. I was suckered by this early in life. People need to check things like this for themselves as there are choices.

 

[GoSox05]

I could go crazy with links about all the cool things they are doing in Finland.

 

It's definitely a country I'd like to visit soon.

[Iwritecode]

There are only 3 states which require elementary schools to even give a regular scheduled recess to students. It's just a shame.

 

Is this state one of them? Because for some reason they are requiring my daughter to continue to take PE even though she's behind in credits and on her 5th year of HS. Seems to me that it would make more sense to fill her schedule with the classes required to graduate including the ones she needs to make up from previous years.

[LittleHurt05]

Is this state one of them? Because for some reason they are requiring my daughter to continue to take PE even though she's behind in credits and on her 5th year of HS. Seems to me that it would make more sense to fill her schedule with the classes required to graduate including the ones she needs to make up from previous years.

 

At least when I was in school, Illinois was like the only state that required all high school students to take a PE class.

[ptatc]

Is this state one of them? Because for some reason they are requiring my daughter to continue to take PE even though she's behind in credits and on her 5th year of HS. Seems to me that it would make more sense to fill her schedule with the classes required to graduate including the ones she needs to make up from previous years.

Yes. illinois is one of them and also one of the few that require gym in high school.

[RockRaines]

caulfield pretty much summed it up pretty well.

 

The US should not emulate those countries with the type of resources we have, we should exceed them.

 

Sure, the US is still the primary go to place in the world for immigration but we absolutely can do better. That being said, our politicians are to blame for the failures of our country and the people who elect them as well.

 

edit: I feel like the US attitude is "I got mine, now go f*** yourself!"

Pretty much.

 

We also dont seem to care that much about our educational system in the same way those countries do. They really invest in the futures of kids, we simply look for a way to reduce taxes while keeping some schools open. Meanwhile the wealthy still get the best education money can buy. Our divide gets larger, and because of that, we will never aspire to be a country like them.

[Jerksticks]

Interesting but aren't all the points in favor of emulating these countries completely moot based on population, geography and demographics?

 

Norway & Finland have like 5 Million people each and Sweden almost 10. That's it.

 

And the vast majority in each country basically all live in the same climate.

 

And they are almost entirely white. Immigration of late has made a dent but these are arguably the whitest countries on earth. And they are almost all Protestants.

 

 

So how is the most racially, ethinically, geographically, culturally, religiously diverse nation supposed to please everybody like these homogenous white mini-countries? Not to mention we have like 60x the population of Finland and Norway, 30x that of Sweden, and the people are spread out over thousands of miles of completely different climates & resource areas. Every nation, race & culture has settled more people here over the years than those current populations combined.

 

My point is that it's easy to please everybody when everybody is the same, lives in the same place & there is no racial tension.

 

There are more people in greater Chicago than these countries and much more diverse.

 

Socialist ideas may work for 5 million white protestants in Finland who live in the same area but wtf does that have to do with our giant melting pot and oppressive history.

 

The idea of emulating them just pisses me off when i think about it realistically. It's kind of racist.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Jerksticks

[caulfield12]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/16/travel/world...ions/index.html

 

The closest comparisons are probably going to be Canada and Australia.

 

On the other hand, after you get past China and India wth superpopulations....is it entirely fair or realistic to compare the US to developing countries like the Philippines, Brazil or Indonesia?

 

 

A better way to put this is like comparing the US with the EU as a whole. Are there individual US states that are happier than Norway/Sweden/Finland/Denmark...not to mention Switzerland, Iceland, the Netherlands, Austria and Germany?

 

Wouldn't California, Oregon and Washington State end up in comparatively the same area? Florida? Colorado? Massachusetts? Arizona? Minnesota? Some of those states have pretty diverse populations, yes?

 

I pulled up a couple of articles where you have Hawaii (very diverse), Alaska (white and Native American/Eskimo), Montana (white), Colorado (diverse) and Wyoming (white).

 

Another similar survey has it Utah (more diverse than most think, but there is the religious divide), Minnesota (increasingly diverse), North Dakota, Hawaii, Colorado, Idaho, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota and CA. A lot of mostly white states on that list as well, right? https://wallethub.com/edu/happiest-states/6959/

 

 

Basically, you should live in Hawaii/Colorado/MN/CA....or an almost all-white state, according to these two surveys. Not very different from looking at countries in the EU as being comparable to states. Or even NYC, Boston, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Las Vegas, San Diego, LA, etc., as being similarly attractive.

 

With some of the states, it's tax policy...individual states or property taxes. Other areas seem to be more associated with freedom/anti-government feeling as well as natural beauty and much less diversity in local populations.

Edited January 12, 2017 by caulfield12

[bmags]

I'm unsure why this is so controversial. Conservatives too look at other countries like Chile's private pension fund as a better system. Chile is also smaller and more homogenous than the US.

 

Scandinavian countries run a lot of experiments on cash transfers and get a lot of bang for their buck. French government builds infrastructure at a fraction of our costs. Makes sense to look at how we can improve by looking at other countries and seeing what is applicable.