Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

[Con te Giolito]

No way you can say Q is a top 10 pitcher in MLB unless you are just an all out slave to WAR. Nothing against him, but he's not that guy. Top 20 is a bit of a different story, I think I could come up with 20 pitchers I'd rather have in 2017 tbh.

[Bananarchy]

No way you can say Q is a top 10 pitcher in MLB unless you are just an all out slave to WAR. Nothing against him, but he's not that guy. Top 20 is a bit of a different story, I think I could come up with 20 pitchers I'd rather have in 2017 tbh.

Translated: "Unless you buy the best understood value statistic in baseball, you can't possibly think Q is a top ten pitcher"

 

That makes zero sense. He's the 10th best player in baseball but the most popular and reasonable value metric.

 

Or are you a pitching wins sheep?

[Chicago White Sox]

No way you can say Q is a top 10 pitcher in MLB unless you are just an all out slave to WAR. Nothing against him, but he's not that guy. Top 20 is a bit of a different story, I think I could come up with 20 pitchers I'd rather have in 2017 tbh.

Dude, you're nuts if you think there are 20 better starters than Quintana.

[OmarComing25]

No way you can say Q is a top 10 pitcher in MLB unless you are just an all out slave to WAR. Nothing against him, but he's not that guy. Top 20 is a bit of a different story, I think I could come up with 20 pitchers I'd rather have in 2017 tbh.

Ok I'll bite, name 20.

[soxforlife05]

Devers. One thing that always puzzled me on the Boston trade was that if DD insisted on taking Devers off the table, why didn't Sox get them to include another third baseman like Dalbach instead of Diaz, or in addition to Diaz.

 

I think Hahn really wanted Moncada and didn't want to risk them changing their minds once they decided to include him. It could've happened if he held up the deal by trying to add players like Frazier to get Devers. I don't think Moncada was ever in the conversation prior to the day he was moved.

[Con te Giolito]

Ok I'll bite, name 20.

Kershaw

Synder

Lester

Arrieta

Sale

Bumgarner

Scherzer

Porcello

Kluber

Cueto

Carrasco

Urias

Price

Darvish

C Martinez

Cole

Degrom

Tanaka

Verlander

Fulmer

 

Again, this is JUST 2017. Quintana's age and contract have no power in this world.

 

You could go either way on a few of them, but theres your 20. There are more guys (Teheran, Paxton, Roark, Hendricks etc.) that are debatable as well. Q is fringe T20 starter in baseball.

 

Translated: "Unless you buy the best understood value statistic in baseball, you can't possibly think Q is a top ten pitcher"

 

That makes zero sense. He's the 10th best player in baseball but the most popular and reasonable value metric.

 

Or are you a pitching wins sheep?

"Best understood"

 

Ha. Explain WAR in fewer words than batting average. And where are you getting this 10th best player in baseball from? He's the 11th best starter by WAR. Ofc the BEST UNDERSTOOD statistic in baseball has two different kinds depending on the site you're on, this is not an issue other LESS UNDERSTOOD statistics have.

 

[BigHurt3515]

Kershaw

Synder

Lester

Arrieta

Sale

Bumgarner

Scherzer

Porcello

Kluber

Cueto

Carrasco

Urias

Price

Darvish

C Martinez

Cole

Degrom

Tanaka

Verlander

Fulmer

 

Again, this is JUST 2017. Quintana's age and contract have no power in this world.

 

You could go either way on a few of them, but theres your 20. There are more guys (Teheran, Paxton, Roark, Hendricks etc.) that are debatable as well. Q is fringe T20 starter in baseball.

 

 

"Best understood"

 

Ha. Explain WAR in fewer words than batting average. And where are you getting this 10th best player in baseball from? He's the 11th best starter by WAR. Ofc the BEST UNDERSTOOD statistic in baseball has two different kinds depending on the site you're on, this is not an issue other LESS UNDERSTOOD statistics have.

 

 

Umm nope.

 

Then there is Verlander and Carrasco who have had injuries and I'm not sure I would rather have them

[OmarComing25]

Umm nope.

 

Then there is Verlander and Carrasco who have had injuries and I'm not sure I would rather have them

Putting Fulmer in the top 20 is also pretty generous. Outside of ERA there was nothing that impressive about his numbers.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Kershaw

Synder

Lester

Arrieta

Sale

Bumgarner

Scherzer

Porcello

Kluber

Cueto

Carrasco

Urias

Price

Darvish

C Martinez

Cole

Degrom

Tanaka

Verlander

Fulmer

 

Again, this is JUST 2017. Quintana's age and contract have no power in this world.

 

You could go either way on a few of them, but theres your 20. There are more guys (Teheran, Paxton, Roark, Hendricks etc.) that are debatable as well. Q is fringe T20 starter in baseball.

 

 

"Best understood"

 

Ha. Explain WAR in fewer words than batting average. And where are you getting this 10th best player in baseball from? He's the 11th best starter by WAR. Ofc the BEST UNDERSTOOD statistic in baseball has two different kinds depending on the site you're on, this is not an issue other LESS UNDERSTOOD statistics have.

 

"Age is not a factor!"

 

....*includes a 20-year-old with 77 innings*

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Putting Fulmer in the top 20 is also pretty generous. Outside of ERA there was nothing that impressive about his numbers.

 

There are at least 10 guys on his list that I doubt projections would project them for a better 2017 season, and projection systems probably project low on Q every single year.

[southsider2k5]

Devers is clearly superior to Kopech as a prospect.

 

Point is Hahn was willing to back off on his demands for Sale but not so with Quintana. And before anyone says "WELL WE DONT KNOW THE OFFER FROM LUHNOW"...yeah, we do know it. You can combine the reported Sox demand with the Rays offer and figure that the hangup is Joe Musgrove or (and I'm just assuming this because it makes sense) Bregman. If Hahn was willing to give up on Devers, a fringe top 10 overall prospect in the game, for Sale then why isn't he budging from Musgrove? Musgrove is good but he's not THAT good.

 

The only explanation that makes sense is that there was extra motivation to deal Sale. Whether it was because of the jersey incident and LaRoche embarassment or them identifying a fatal flaw poised to torpedo Sale's career (this is actually plausible, Sale was frustrating to watch at times last year) I dont know, and I dont think anyone ever will exactly.

 

NOT SAYING THE REBUILD IS A FARCE

NOT SAYING THERE IS A CONSPIRACY

Just saying have just been players valued more than others based on little, if any, apparent baseball merit.

 

This sounds like a Donald Trump speech. You aren't going to say it out right. You are just going to make a bunch of innuendo and hints about it, and pretend that isn't what you are saying so you can be right with both sides, and then just make up anything else to fit the narrative.

 

You can't just take an offer to another team for another player and assume that is what we are being offered, especially when a report is out there that contradicts that.

[caulfield12]

This sounds like a Donald Trump speech. You aren't going to say it out right. You are just going to make a bunch of innuendo and hints about it, and pretend that isn't what you are saying so you can be right with both sides, and then just make up anything else to fit the narrative.

 

You can't just take an offer to another team for another player and assume that is what we are being offered, especially when a report is out there that contradicts that.

 

C'mon, you've never heard of alternative facts?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by caulfield12

[reiks12]

Dont know if this got lost in the discussion but that Rumbunter guy tweeted that Hahn turned down a "hefty" deal from the Pirates. Hinted its Glasnow, Keller, Newman, and Diaz.

[steveno89]

This sounds like a Donald Trump speech. You aren't going to say it out right. You are just going to make a bunch of innuendo and hints about it, and pretend that isn't what you are saying so you can be right with both sides, and then just make up anything else to fit the narrative.

 

You can't just take an offer to another team for another player and assume that is what we are being offered, especially when a report is out there that contradicts that.

 

As has been stated before, Hahn did not "give up" on Devers really. He was already getting the consensus #1 overall prospect in baseball and a top 5 right handed pitching prospect as well. DD knew that no other team could beat those headliners and that the White Sox would be foolish to pass up a Moncada + Kopech centered deal.

 

Q has not been traded because teams have been unwilling to put the correct headlining pieces into a trade offer. Meadows and/or Bell absolutely have to be in a Pirates proposal or a deal will not work. Martes + Tucker have to be in a proposal, along with alot more. Torres needs to be in a Yankees offer, etc.

 

We have the leverage in negotiations with Quintana being under control for 4 more seasons. That is huge. If the right deal is not presenting itself right now then we absolutely should reevaluate at the deadline. There very well could be new suitors that emerge, as well as prospect who take big steps forward.

 

Ideally, our price gets met soon, but it's looking like Quintana will break camp with the Sox. Just be patient and let this process play out.

[Bob Sacamano]

Dont know if this got lost in the discussion but that Rumbunter guy tweeted that Hahn turned down a "hefty" deal from the Pirates. Hinted its Glasnow, Keller, Newman, and Diaz.

 

I actually don't see where he says this. Another poster just said that Hahn isn't crazy for rejecting that package but don't see Rumbunter saying that is the deal.

[steveno89]

I actually don't see where he says this. Another poster just said that Hahn isn't crazy for rejecting that package but don't see Rumbunter saying that is the deal.

 

I would turn down that proposal as well

 

Pirates are not getting Quintana if both Meadows and Bell are off the table

[Buehrlesque]

Dont know if this got lost in the discussion but that Rumbunter guy tweeted that Hahn turned down a "hefty" deal from the Pirates. Hinted its Glasnow, Keller, Newman, and Diaz.

No Meadows, no Bell, no deal. Pretty simple.

[Bob Sacamano]

No Meadows, no Bell, no deal. Pretty simple.

 

As I pointed above, Rumbunter never hinted or suggested that the above package is the offer Hahn recently rejected.

[Y2Jimmy0]

As I pointed above, Rumbunter never hinted or suggested that the above package is the offer Hahn recently rejected.

 

 

Yes he did. I pressed him about it last night. My handle is JamesFox917. I suggested that as the package and he liked it on twitter. Those are the names being bandied about. He just can't confirm it. Honestly, I'd probably consider Glasnow, Keller, Newman, and Hayes if they added their Competitive Balance pick. That's 3 top 50 prospects, a young 3B that can hit and a 2nd round pick.

[Bob Sacamano]

Yes he did. I pressed him about it last night. My handle is JamesFox917. I suggested that as the package and he liked it on twitter. Those are the names being bandied about. He just can't confirm it. Honestly, I'd probably consider Glasnow, Keller, Newman, and Hayes if they added their Competitive Balance pick. That's 3 top 50 prospects, a young 3B that can hit and a 2nd round pick.

 

 

I would do that deal as well. And I definitely didn't see it in his series of tweets. My bad.

[steveno89]

As I pointed above, Rumbunter never hinted or suggested that the above package is the offer Hahn recently rejected.

 

Rumors seem to indicate the Pirates are offering up a Glasnow + Newman headlined deal, perhaps with Keller on the table as well.

 

While those are all good prospects, I would not trade Quintana for a package like that. Newman has far below average power (.100 ISO), which limits his upside to a contact/obp middle infielder.

[HeGone7]

Kershaw

Synder

Lester

Arrieta

Sale

Bumgarner

Scherzer

Porcello

Kluber

Cueto

Carrasco

Urias

Price

Darvish

C Martinez

Cole

Degrom

Tanaka

Verlander

Fulmer

 

Again, this is JUST 2017. Quintana's age and contract have no power in this world.

 

You could go either way on a few of them, but theres your 20. There are more guys (Teheran, Paxton, Roark, Hendricks etc.) that are debatable as well. Q is fringe T20 starter in baseball.

 

 

"Best understood"

 

Ha. Explain WAR in fewer words than batting average. And where are you getting this 10th best player in baseball from? He's the 11th best starter by WAR. Ofc the BEST UNDERSTOOD statistic in baseball has two different kinds depending on the site you're on, this is not an issue other LESS UNDERSTOOD statistics have.

 

Q is consistently good.

 

His best WAR season of 5.2 puts him in the convo during a single season as a top 10-15 arm (since 5+ is pretty much your benchmark for WAR top 10). His 4.2 WAR average during this 3 year stretch may add up to a top 10 total but he's never actually finished in the top 10, which is why he isn't great. He finished 11th, 16th and 30th during those 3 seasons. Which puts him just inside the top 20 if we average it out.

 

Teams want upside, Q offers little upside beyond what we saw last season. He is what he is. It isn't bad, it's the opposite in fact. He just doesn't show that he possesses the ability to get to 6+, 7+, 8+ WAR as some other guys have done during this stretch.

 

Here is an example, Tanner Roark. He has bested Q in 2 of the last 3 seasons for WAR. Yet, many of you would not have even entertained his name in this conversation. Fact is, Roark finished top 10 in 14' and 16' and Q never has. So who is better?

 

You will, however, be hard pressed to not put Q in your top 20 because he has proven he'll be in the mix somewhere. Whether it's 11th or 30th. Meanwhile, guys from season to season fall behind or jump ahead. Whether it's injury, struggles, fluke luck, etc those players have greater extreme's than Q. So it depends if you want the reliable luxury sedan or the unreliable sports car. I could easily see other people not including him and I wouldn't have a problem. Enough evidence exists to make a case against him. It's all about upside and teams seek that out. Q, because he doesn't possess the electric stuff, will always be perceived as a guy who can't overpower teams and take over a game on his own.

 

Simply, the other guys have higher ceilings but most have lower floors than Q. Teams are willing to pay more for the ceiling because they all think their staff can maxamize it. It's easier said than done. Q meanwhile needs to repeat his 5 WAR season before he can be in the conversation for anything more than fringe. If he becomes an average 5 WAR arm, he certainly would be in the discussion for top 10-15. If 5 is just his peak, then he isn't.

 

I don't think the Sox are too far off-base with whatever they're asking for because his contract warrants an increase in value, but he isn't Chris Sale. So I understand why teams aren't lining up w/their best guys to get this done.

 

We need to lay off the one lone stat in Q's favor and temper expectations. A GM may be desperate enough or enamored with his ability + contract enough to pay a hefty price, but that doesn't make him a top 10 arm in baseball.

Edited January 23, 2017 by HeGone7

[steveno89]

I would do that deal as well. And I definitely didn't see it in his series of tweets. My bad.

 

I see that offer as a depth package, but one with fairly limited upside

 

Newman's value is tied to him sticking at SS, which is no guaranty with Tim Anderson at the position right now. Sox likely want to keep Moncada at 2B, and I do not like how Newman's bat profiles at 2B or 3B with the lack of power. 50 FV at SS/45 FV if he has to move positions.

 

Hayes is a long ways off the majors, but I don't hate him as a final piece 50 FV, I'd go 45 FV at this point due to how far from the bigs he is.

 

Glasnow is a great second piece in a Quintana deal, but his control issues make him far too risky to headline on his own. 55 FV

 

Keller had a great 2016 season, but forearm issues have me concerned. He has mid rotation potential, but is a ways off the mlb. 55 FV

 

Meadows is the gem of the Pirates system right now and would need to be packaged with Glasnow to headline a Quintana deal

[Y2Jimmy0]

I see that offer as a depth package, but one with fairly limited upside

 

Newman's value is tied to him sticking at SS, which is no guaranty with Tim Anderson at the position right now. Sox likely want to keep Moncada at 2B, and I do not like how Newman's bat profiles at 2B or 3B with the lack of power. 50 FV at SS/45 FV if he has to move positions.

 

Hayes is a long ways off the majors, but I don't hate him as a final piece 50 FV, I'd go 45 FV at this point due to how far from the bigs he is.

 

Glasnow is a great second piece in a Quintana deal, but his control issues make him far too risky to headline on his own. 55 FV

 

Keller had a great 2016 season, but forearm issues have me concerned. He has mid rotation potential, but is a ways off the mlb. 55 FV

 

Meadows is the gem of the Pirates system right now and would need to be packaged with Glasnow to headline a Quintana deal

 

 

I could argue that Meadows and Glasnow is a better haul than the Sale deal. No chance that happens for Q IMO.

[peavy44]

Will royals go after Jose Quintana with ventura passing.