reiks12 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I actually really like the idea of Glasnow/Keller/Newman/ and Diaz I dont find it light at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:56 PM) I actually really like the idea of Glasnow/Keller/Newman/ and Diaz I dont find it light at all Itd be a solid deal if we hadn't just acquired 4 legit pithing prospects in our last 2 deals. We need bats. Meadows + Glasnow or Keller + Newman + Diaz is much better move for the Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 02:02 PM) Itd be a solid deal if we hadn't just acquired 4 legit pithing prospects in our last 2 deals. We need bats. Meadows + Glasnow or Keller + Newman + Diaz is much better move for the Sox. Who cares about bats right now? We have the draft and an excess of pitching prospects to acquire bats. We also have 3 high draft picks before our competitive window and free agency to help out. Giolito Glasnow Kopech Lopez Keller Fulmer Hansen Burdi Rodon Jones Dunning Find who is expendable and get those bats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (hi8is @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 11:39 AM) I nominate this for top post of all three Q threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:10 PM) Who cares about bats right now? We have the draft and an excess of pitching prospects to acquire bats. We also have 3 high draft picks before our competitive window and free agency to help out. Giolito Glasnow Kopech Lopez Keller Fulmer Hansen Burdi Rodon Jones Dunning Find who is expendable and get those bats. If a top of the rotation starter with one of the best contracts in baseball under team control for the next 4 years can't land hitting prospects, why would our hypothetical excess of pitching prospect arms do any better? Hold out for position player headliners...no way should we trade for any more arms as headliners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:56 PM) I actually really like the idea of Glasnow/Keller/Newman/ and Diaz I dont find it light at all It is light for several reasons #1 Surplus Value Quintana's cheap contract makes him worth roughly $133 million in surplus value over the next four seasons Glasnow + Newman + Keller + Diaz #2 Organizational need We have acquired Giolito, Kopech, Lopez, Dunning and Diaz in the Sale and Eaton trades. While you can truly never have too much pitching, these acquisitions lessen our need for right handed pitching in a Quintana deal We are seriously lacking in quality position player prospects, and my guess is that Hahn and Co. would like a premium position player prospect as part of the Quintana return. I do not consider Newman to be a "premium" prospect worthy of headlining a Quintana deal due to a lack of power potential. Meadows is pretty clearly the sticking point here. I do not see the Sox agreeing without him in the deal. Newman's value is tied with his ability to stick at SS. His bat is far less attractive at 2B/3B or a corner outfield spot due to the lack of pop. Great hitting approach, but he's far less valuable if he's not playing SS. Diaz projects to be a defense first, backup catcher at the mlb level. He has had multiple 60 day DL stints. Limited upside offensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:10 PM) Who cares about bats right now? We have the draft and an excess of pitching prospects to acquire bats. We also have 3 high draft picks before our competitive window and free agency to help out. Giolito Glasnow Kopech Lopez Keller Fulmer Hansen Burdi Rodon Jones Dunning Find who is expendable and get those bats. Orrrrrr don't waste your your last great bullet on pitching, and get a legit bat. Better to have it now than trade for it later, IMO. That said, if the offers don't materialize and we can land Glasnow, Keller, Newman ++, I guess it is what it is. Its not like I dislike Glasnow and Newman, I just want the main piece to be a bat. If Q can't land a top 10 positional player prospect, not sure how you can assume Glasnow or Keller can at a later date. Edited January 23, 2017 by ChiSox59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:37 PM) Glasnow on his own is not a good enough prospect to headline a Quintana deal 5.2 BB/9 in the minors this season does not make anyone warm and fuzzy about his control developing. I am not saying he can't or will not improve, but right now he seems like the kind of pitcher that will rack up a bunch of k's, but also a bunch of 5+ walk games leading to maddening inconsistency Glasnow + Keller + Newman + one more is not the right package for the White Sox. We need at least one premium bat and one premium arm coming back to us in order to deal Quintana Something along the liens of: Meadows + Glasnow + Diaz + Comp Balance Pick for Quintana I keep seeing this observation made over and over again, but how is it that one of the top 3 pitching prospects in all of baseball as recognized by every legitimate source out there is somehow "not good enough" to headline this potential trade for Quintana? The guy IS a TOP 10 prospect in the game, and is actually rated ahead of the likes of the Torres' and Fraziers' of the world on almost every top prospect list out there. Yes, there is a scouting report here or there making certain comments about his stuff, but if it were that bad, he wouldn't continue to be at the top of all of these lists. I think perhaps our fan base's desire for prospects of the positional player variety may be muddling the true value of this guy as an elite prospect in the game today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soha Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:10 PM) Who cares about bats right now? We have the draft and an excess of pitching prospects to acquire bats. We also have 3 high draft picks before our competitive window and free agency to help out. Giolito Glasnow Kopech Lopez Keller Fulmer Hansen Burdi Rodon Jones Dunning Find who is expendable and get those bats. Aren't we finding out there's a premium for hitters? What makes you think they will be any more available a year or two from now than they are now? You don't have to go any further than Theo Epstein to show this. He specifically said they over-drafted bats/hitters, knowing they are more valuable trade chips than pitchers are, and that the plan all along was to eventually trade some for pitching. I think Quintana is our last big trade chip and we can't let it go without getting a big hitting prospect back. Especially given the Sox recent ineptness in drafting and developing hitters. That said we aren't getting Meadows and Bell for Q. I'd be thrilled with something along the lines of Meadows and Keller, plus 1 or 2 lottery tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) I keep seeing this observation made over and over again, but how is it that one of the top 3 pitching prospects in all of baseball as recognized by every legitimate source out there is somehow "not good enough" to headline this potential trade for Quintana? The guy IS a TOP 10 prospect in the game, and is actually rated ahead of the likes of the Torres' and Fraziers' of the world on almost every top prospect list out there. Yes, there is a scouting report here or there making certain comments about his stuff, but if it were that bad, he wouldn't continue to be at the top of all of these lists. I think perhaps our fan base's desire for prospects of the positional player variety may be muddling the true value of this guy as an elite prospect in the game today. Torres is going to supposedly rank in the Top 3 in many of the new lists. Really, if the Pirates are stuck on Meadows, the Sox should look at Glasnow / Newman/ Keller / Diaz while flipping Glasnow / Robertson / Cash for a prospect like Robles, Frazier, Tucker, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) I keep seeing this observation made over and over again, but how is it that one of the top 3 pitching prospects in all of baseball as recognized by every legitimate source out there is somehow "not good enough" to headline this potential trade for Quintana? The guy IS a TOP 10 prospect in the game, and is actually rated ahead of the likes of the Torres' and Fraziers' of the world on almost every top prospect list out there. Yes, there is a scouting report here or there making certain comments about his stuff, but if it were that bad, he wouldn't continue to be at the top of all of these lists. I think perhaps our fan base's desire for prospects of the positional player variety may be muddling the true value of this guy as an elite prospect in the game today. The guy has some massive flaws that haven't been corrected by one of the top pitching organizations in baseball. That should be a pretty big red flag. The stuff is there, but the guy isn't going to survive MLB with a 5+ walk rate, unless he has Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson type of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:02 PM) Itd be a solid deal if we hadn't just acquired 4 legit pithing prospects in our last 2 deals. We need bats. Meadows + Glasnow or Keller + Newman + Diaz is much better move for the Sox. The White Sox need to acquire as much talent as is possible. I used this example previously - if a team offers three 60 FV pitchers or three 55 FV bats, you take the pitchers in a heart beat because it is a more valuable package. The White Sox are 2-3 years away from competing as is. Collect all the talent you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 11:08 AM) For a top prospect like Glasnow, scouts sure seem pretty split on him. If the Sox' scouts and coaches aren't sold, then he's not much of a headliner. Plain and simple. We're not just going by prospect rankings here. It's entirely possible the Sox just don't like him all that much. If the Sox value him as a top 10 prospect, I suspect a deal would probably be done by now. This was a very good post. I also think like this regarding the Musgrove saga, it's very likely the teams rate Musgrove much higher than the fans who just see another pitcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:41 PM) The White Sox need to acquire as much talent as is possible. I used this example previously - if a team offers three 60 FV pitchers or three 55 FV bats, you take the pitchers in a heart beat because it is a more valuable package. The White Sox are 2-3 years away from competing as is. Collect all the talent you can. I normally agree with this but I actually think it's wrong. Three 55 FV bats seem to have much higher value on marketplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:41 PM) The White Sox need to acquire as much talent as is possible. I used this example previously - if a team offers three 60 FV pitchers or three 55 FV bats, you take the pitchers in a heart beat because it is a more valuable package. The White Sox are 2-3 years away from competing as is. Collect all the talent you can. I get that, and I don't disagree, but the Sox badly need hitting prospects. I am all for acquiring and hording as many top prospects as we can. That said, it is obvious that there is a premium on hitting prospects, so I don't think it is as simple as "oh well, we'll just turn Glasnow into a top 5 positional player down the line". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) I keep seeing this observation made over and over again, but how is it that one of the top 3 pitching prospects in all of baseball as recognized by every legitimate source out there is somehow "not good enough" to headline this potential trade for Quintana? The guy IS a TOP 10 prospect in the game, and is actually rated ahead of the likes of the Torres' and Fraziers' of the world on almost every top prospect list out there. Yes, there is a scouting report here or there making certain comments about his stuff, but if it were that bad, he wouldn't continue to be at the top of all of these lists. I think perhaps our fan base's desire for prospects of the positional player variety may be muddling the true value of this guy as an elite prospect in the game today. Dave Cameron of fangraphs specifically said that Glasnow is not good enough to headline a Quintana deal on his own He guessed the White Sox will require 2 out of Meadows / Bell / Glasnow plus other stuff to get a deal done I am not saying Glasnow is a "bad" prospect, but he is pretty risky considering he has yet to show the ability to consistently throw strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I understand somewhat the logic behind the "collection of assets" thinking, but people are taking it too far. Balance is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 02:39 PM) The guy has some massive flaws that haven't been corrected by one of the top pitching organizations in baseball. That should be a pretty big red flag. The stuff is there, but the guy isn't going to survive MLB with a 5+ walk rate, unless he has Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson type of stuff. This is where my disconnect is. "Massive flaws" = nowhere near being included on a top 10 prospect list in all of baseball, at least to my way of thinking. I, of course, acknowledge that these various lists out there are not the end all/be all, that as some other posters have pointed out, each team operates under their own understanding of a player's capabilities based on what their scouts are telling them. I would just think someone with such a "big red flag" as you point out which hasn't been corrected by "one of the top pitching organizations in baseball" would not be on ANY of these lists if whatever issue(s) he has is/are as bad as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:45 PM) I get that, and I don't disagree, but the Sox badly need hitting prospects. I am all for acquiring and hording as many top prospects as we can. That said, it is obvious that there is a premium on hitting prospects, so I don't think it is as simple as "oh well, we'll just turn Glasnow into a top 5 positional player down the line". Position player prospects are considered to be much less risky and less likely to have injury problems than pitchers Sox might consider the current market to be tapped out and would rather wait until the trade deadline to see what is available Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) This is where my disconnect is. "Massive flaws" = nowhere near being included on a top 10 prospect list in all of baseball, at least to my way of thinking. I, of course, acknowledge that these various lists out there are not the end all/be all, that as some other posters have pointed out, each team operates under their own understanding of a player's capabilities based on what their scouts are telling them. I would just think someone with such a "big red flag" as you point out which hasn't been corrected by "one of the top pitching organizations in baseball" would not be on ANY of these lists if whatever issue(s) he has is/are as bad as you suggest. Then explain Joey Gallo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Pirates will never give up what the Sox want. I said they were a bad fit all along. They seem like a perfect match but they feed off their farm system. Edited January 23, 2017 by soxfan2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) This is where my disconnect is. "Massive flaws" = nowhere near being included on a top 10 prospect list in all of baseball, at least to my way of thinking. I, of course, acknowledge that these various lists out there are not the end all/be all, that as some other posters have pointed out, each team operates under their own understanding of a player's capabilities based on what their scouts are telling them. I would just think someone with such a "big red flag" as you point out which hasn't been corrected by "one of the top pitching organizations in baseball" would not be on ANY of these lists if whatever issue(s) he has is/are as bad as you suggest. Massive flaw might be exaggerated, but a 5.2 BB/9 in AAA this season is concerning moving forward You simply cannot walk that many batters and expect to have consistent success at the mlb level where the hitters are even more patient. I'm not saying he does not deserve to be a top 25 prospect, he does based on stuff and talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 03:00 PM) Massive flaw might be exaggerated, but a 5.2 BB/9 in AAA this season is concerning moving forward You simply cannot walk that many batters and expect to have consistent success at the mlb level where the hitters are even more patient. I'm not saying he does not deserve to be a top 25 prospect, he does based on stuff and talent. What is he, 22? Rodon walked 4.6 in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2017-zips-p...sburgh-pirates/ Not sure if posted yet. Of note, Meadows already projected as a 2 WAR player, Newman as average. Rotation sure would look a lot nicer with a 4 war player, giving them 13 WAR from their staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Whoa, missed that Glasnow featured as one of their best starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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