Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

[southsider2k5]

I'm surprised we haven't heard a whisper about these vets. These guys should be gone. I'd personally try to package them together and / or trade them and eat as much salary as possible to try and get the best talent back as possible. Plus, I'd like them off the roster so we can tank as much as possible for drafting purposes. Makes no sense to try and be competitive this year.

 

I'm not. They have no trade value.

[bighurt574]

We have a very good idea what offers Hahn has on the table, especially from the Astros.

 

Not really. Even if you try to extrapolate, half these reports are bs anyway.

[caulfield12]

So essentially the worst case scenario is their hitters (Cubs) still brought valuable pieces back.

 

On the other hand, you could look at injuries to Rauch, Stumm, Biddle, Barcelo, Wright, Parque, etc., and argue the best collection of pitching prospects in the game 15 years took a pretty huge hit. Ginter was overhyped, another big name that comes to mind. Sirotka and Baldwin went down as well, although they came earlier, along with Snyder.

 

Buehrle, Fogg, Garland and Kip Wells were the only ones to have long/er starting careers. That's a huge swath of talent that was basically turned into Todd Ritchie and Damaso Marte. Were it not for trading position prospects for Garcia and lucking out with Contreras for Loiaza, they would have been screwed. The two best since then, McCarthy and Hudson, also eventually went down.

 

So all that...TJS risk and especially labrum/shoulder issues, are what make those 60's equal 55's. If not for the blip up in reliever values, you could even argue 60=52.5, and also for the fact it's been impossible to pry young hitting prospects loose this offseason after the Sale trade and the Chapman/Miller deals at the deadline. Or you can argue the White Sox in recent years have done an excellent job by and large keeping pitchers healthy compared to other orgs.

Edited January 24, 2017 by caulfield12

[ChiSox59]

Other than Soler, what elite Cubs' prospect has lost value for this reason?

 

Vogelbach? Fringey.

 

Huh? My post has nothing to do with the Cubs, and I was talking about acquiring pitching prospects. No idea where you're going w this one.

[southsider2k5]

Huh? My post has nothing to do with the Cubs, and I was talking about acquiring pitching prospects. No idea where you're going w this one.

 

I am going to guess a list of Cubs prospects from the 90's.

[caulfield12]

Huh? My post has nothing to do with the Cubs, and I was talking about acquiring pitching prospects. No idea where you're going w this one.

 

They're always the default example because they are the antithesis of the Sox, stockpiling positional talent.

 

Someone earlier in the thread posted that stockpiling, let's say 10-12 pitching prospects, would inevitably diminish their value becaause not all of them could possibly populate the roster...some would end up blocked, and theoretically the Sox would have less leverage in trade negotiations. That's the theory, at least.

[ptatc]

So essentially the worst case scenario is their hitters (Cubs) still brought valuable pieces back.

 

On the other hand, you could look at injuries to Rauch, Stumm, Biddle, Barcelo, Wright, Parque, etc., and argue the best collection of pitching prospects in the game 15 years took a pretty huge hit. Ginter was overhyped, another big name that comes to mind. Sirotka and Baldwin went down as well, although they came earlier, along with Snyder.

 

Buehrle, Fogg, Garland and Kip Wells were the only ones to have long/er starting careers. That's a huge swath of talent that was basically turned into Todd Ritchie and Damaso Marte. Were it not for trading position prospects for Garcia and lucking out with Contreras for Loiaza, they would have been screwed. The two best since then, McCarthy and Hudson, also eventually went down.

 

So all that...TJS risk and especially labrum/shoulder issues, are what make those 60's equal 55's. If not for the blip up in reliever values, you could even argue 60=52.5, and also for the fact it's been impossible to pry young hitting prospects loose this offseason after the Sale trade and the Chapman/Miller deals at the deadline. Or you can argue the White Sox in recent years have done an excellent job by and large keeping pitchers healthy compared to other orgs.

This is why collecting pitchers is the way to go. JR will never pony up 200 million dollars for a couple of pitchers if the Sox get all hitters and need to buy pitching later. He would be inclined to pay for hitters as he did with joey Belle when the Sox signed him to that (at the time) massive deal.

[caulfield12]

I am going to guess a list of Cubs prospects from the 90's.

 

 

The increased volatility of top pitching prospects that we all witnessed from 1998-2003 with our very own farm system isn't relevant?

 

Hasn't someone already thoroughly analyzed past BA Top 100 lists and determined bust rates and who ended up with higher career WAR numbers, pitchers (proportionally, as there are less on a roster) or hitters? Perhaps you would accept that.

Edited January 24, 2017 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

This is why collecting pitchers is the way to go. JR will never pony up 200 million dollars for a couple of pitchers if the Sox get all hitters and need to buy pitching later. He would be inclined to pay for hitters as he did with joey Belle when the Sox signed him to that (at the time) massive deal.

 

 

Yeah, that's clearly supported by Sox free agent pitching spending and even attempts to trade young pitching/prospects for veterans like Todd Ritchie, Edwin Jackson, Javy, etc. (Robertson's a clear anomaly here.)

 

Not to mention Buerhle and Danks remain the two biggest non-Abreu deals, both were not external free agents but pitchers Schneider and the staff were already comfortable with, trust built over time.

 

 

It's all the fault of Jaime Navarro!!! (Obligatory 90's reference now included. Belle makes two.)

Edited January 24, 2017 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

Yeah, that's clearly supported by Sox free agent pitching spending and even attempts to trade young pitching/prospects for veterans like Todd Ritchie, Edwin Jackson, Javy, etc. (Robertson's a clear anomaly here.)

 

Not to mention Buerhle and Danks remain the two biggest non-Abreu deals, both were not external free agents but pitchers Schneider and the staff were already comfortable with, trust built over time.

 

 

It's all the fault of Jaime Navarro!!! (Obligatory 90's reference now included. Belle makes two.)

The Sox record stands. They won't spend big on FA pitchers from outside the organization. It's not the fault of Navarro, it's actually Dotson and Burns. They were in house players but really caused issues with significant injuries.

 

the Buehrle and Danks deals were not the over 100 million dollar deals like Lester that the Sox would need to make if they picked up hitting instead of pitching.

[Nokona]

Yep and there's already a thread for this kind of stuff.

 

Thank you so much, in the 14 years I've been coming here I forgot how a message board works.

 

[Thad Bosley]

The Sox record stands. They won't spend big on FA pitchers from outside the organization. It's not the fault of Navarro, it's actually Dotson and Burns. They were in house players but really caused issues with significant injuries.

 

the Buehrle and Danks deals were not the over 100 million dollar deals like Lester that the Sox would need to make if they picked up hitting instead of pitching.

You mean the part about just 5 playoff appearances in the last 57 years? Yeah, let's just stick to the rebuild, shall we?

[ptatc]

You mean the part about just 5 playoff appearances in the last 57 years? Yeah, let's just stick to the rebuild, shall we?

If you bothered to read the posts, it was referring to the fact that they will not pay for TOR pitchers in FA. Which is why they must collect pitchers in trades then buy or trade for hitters. They have a record of doing that.

 

Your unabashed bias is astounding.

[bmags]

It's Qs birthday.

[ChiSox59]

Franklin Perez (HOU) and Ke'Bryan Hayes (PIT) are ranked 66 and 74, respectively in Law's top 100.

 

BOth names bandied about around here in Q rumors.

[Quin]

Franklin Perez (HOU) and Ke'Bryan Hayes (PIT) are ranked 66 and 74, respectively in Law's top 100.

 

BOth names bandied about around here in Q rumors.

 

I really think if it came to it I'd be content telling Pirates they need to go depth if they're not including Meadows or Bell.

 

Something like Glasnow/Newman/Hayes/Diaz with the possibility of Keller would be a phenomenal deal.

 

Which tells me I'm looking at a deal that wouldn't be offered.

[steveno89]

Franklin Perez (HOU) and Ke'Bryan Hayes (PIT) are ranked 66 and 74, respectively in Law's top 100.

 

BOth names bandied about around here in Q rumors.

 

Can someone post the updated rankings list?

[ChiSoxFanMike]

I really think if it came to it I'd be content telling Pirates they need to go depth if they're not including Meadows or Bell.

 

Something like Glasnow/Newman/Hayes/Diaz with the possibility of Keller would be a phenomenal deal.

 

Which tells me I'm looking at a deal that wouldn't be offered.

The Pirates would sure as hell have to include a lot of depth if Meadows/Bell aren't on the table. Otherwise it isn't worth it for the Sox.

 

 

[steveno89]

I really think if it came to it I'd be content telling Pirates they need to go depth if they're not including Meadows or Bell.

 

Something like Glasnow/Newman/Hayes/Diaz with the possibility of Keller would be a phenomenal deal.

 

Which tells me I'm looking at a deal that wouldn't be offered.

 

That is exactly what the Pirates are hoping for

 

Get the Sox to move off of the true top tier guys in their system like Bell and Meadows, and onto lesser prospects

 

Hahn needs to see through this and hold strong by insisting on Meadows + Glasnow/Keller + Newman/Bell/Hayes

[Quin]

You guys are telling me you'd turn down Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes and Diaz?

 

You add two Top 100 arms, two Top 100 (depending on who is ranking) bats and a projectable catcher?

 

Glasnow ranks above Giolito and Kopech right now, Keller is rising fast and Hayes is a Top 10 3B prospect.

 

If Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes, Diaz is on the table, take it and flip Jones/Glasnow for a bat like Frazier or Robles + a flier. And it's Rick Hahn, who loves three way deals.

[Con te Giolito]

Yea the Sox would have to take that deal. That's too much talent to pass up and as we just saw with flawed/shoulder concern JDL fetching Forsythe one-for-one the mountain of young arms the Sox will have stockpiled will be able to fetch some decent position players.

[steveno89]

You guys are telling me you'd turn down Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes and Diaz?

 

You add two Top 100 arms, two Top 100 (depending on who is ranking) bats and a projectable catcher?

 

Glasnow ranks above Giolito and Kopech right now, Keller is rising fast and Hayes is a Top 10 3B prospect.

 

If Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes, Diaz is on the table, take it and flip Jones/Glasnow for a bat like Frazier or Robles + a flier. And it's Rick Hahn, who loves three way deals.

 

If they include Keller in that offer? Then I'd certainly consider it

 

Without Keller a: Glasnow + Newman + Hayes + Diaz offer is considerably light

 

I don't think they offer 5 prospects in a Q deal when they depend so heavily on their farm system

 

Meadows is the prize of the system with a 65 FV scouting grade (when healthy). Every other prospect listed is a 55 FV grade, at best

[harfman77]

You guys are telling me you'd turn down Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes and Diaz?

 

You add two Top 100 arms, two Top 100 (depending on who is ranking) bats and a projectable catcher?

 

Glasnow ranks above Giolito and Kopech right now, Keller is rising fast and Hayes is a Top 10 3B prospect.

 

If Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes, Diaz is on the table, take it and flip Jones/Glasnow for a bat like Frazier or Robles + a flier. And it's Rick Hahn, who loves three way deals.

 

I would take that deal. Depending on who is doing the evaluation, Glasnow's stock has taken quite a bit of a hit as he has not been able to develop command of the strike zone. Giolito has the same concerns which caused him to slip from being the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. Keller has #2 or three upside and has just started blowing up a lot safer bet than Glasnow to make it as a starter. Hayes is an upside guy that can fit into the window with the young offensive core, Newman can be insurance against some of the other middle IF's busting and give the Sox some flexibility. Diaz could be a place holder at C for a few years, as a 26 year old rookie, there isn't a lot of upside. He can bring some stability to the position and at least be the backup C on the next Sox playoff team.

[steveno89]

I would take that deal. Depending on who is doing the evaluation, Glasnow's stock has taken quite a bit of a hit as he has not been able to develop command of the strike zone. Giolito has the same concerns which caused him to slip from being the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. Keller has #2 or three upside and has just started blowing up a lot safer bet than Glasnow to make it as a starter. Hayes is an upside guy that can fit into the window with the young offensive core, Newman can be insurance against some of the other middle IF's busting and give the Sox some flexibility. Diaz could be a place holder at C for a few years, as a 26 year old rookie, there isn't a lot of upside. He can bring some stability to the position and at least be the backup C on the next Sox playoff team.

 

If they offer : Glasnow + Keller + Newman + Hayes + Diaz

 

That would completely clear out their minor league system, I do not see that happening. When was the last 5 for 1 trade we have seen happen?

 

I'd expect a 3 or 4 player offer

 

 

[steveno89]

Q would be in Pittsburgh if this offer was on the table.

 

That is the Pirates #2, #3, #4, #5 and Diaz is somewhere from #8-#12. This trade would make a top ten farm system a bottom third farm system.

 

Exactly

 

No way the Pirates offer up 5 top 15 prospects for one player

 

3 or 4 tops

 

The Pirates would be destroying their future with that proposal