Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

[Chicago White Sox]

You think he will all of a sudden get lucky with Eaton out of RF and Avi in? They most likely will trade him pretty soon IMO, but this is a bad team. Probably as bad as they were in 2013 when they were 12-20 in Q's starts. .375 winning pct x 162= 60 wins.

 

Every White Sox pitcher who has pitched well the last 4 years has been considered unlucky. They will be again in 2017 with an offense that was horrible with Eaton, and now doesn't have him, and hasn't added anyone of significance to the 2017 line up.

 

I know you are all for taking less now, but that is silly. The Sox got Frank Thomas with the 7th pick. If they were selecting earlier, they would have drafted Jeff Jackson. Having the higher pick is more desireable, however, it doesn't guarantee the better player. I would rather they hold out for better players that have already developed.

 

You are all over the place though. Need to dump him because he might get hurt or start sucking. Need to dump him for whatever you can get now because he is so good your draft position is going to change significantly if he is kept. Well, if that is the case, you will more than make up for it with the increased package he would command at that time.

Lol...not once have I ever suggested we dump Quintana for whatever we can get now. I've repeatedly said DO NOT ACCEPT A CRAP OFFER. My point has been consistent throughout this thread: Hahn should not pass on a strong offer today, in hopes of a perfect offer later. If he's not getting a strong offer now, then by all means wait until the deadline. I just find it hard to believe in what is considered the worst free agent market for starting pitchers in baseball history that not one single team would be willing pony up and make a strong offer. Obviously this is 100% speculation on my part, but it serves as the basis of my underlying argument. You suggesting that I think we should dump him for whatever we can get is straight up disingenuous and a pretty cowardly way to deflect attention from an absolutely terrible post.

 

As for this "all over the place" nonsense, complex decisions require the consideration of all relevant factors. The three factors I've said over and over again are as follows.

 

1) No guarantee that waiting results in a better return (assuming a strong offer exists today)

 

2) Waiting results in additional risk whether injury, under-performance, or changes in market dynamics (the amount of risk is up for debate)

 

3) Waiting potentially results in opportunity costs in terms of draft position and the length of our competitive window.

 

If you disagree with any of the points above, by all means dispute them. There are plenty of posters on the other side of this argument that have made fair counter-points against them. But suggesting I'm all over the place because I'm using multiple factors to support my argument is beyond ridiculous.

[Chicago White Sox]

And just to support the idea Hahn has likely received some strong offers for Quintana, below is a tweet from rumbunter that I pulled from a conversation with our own Y2Jimmy & ChiSoxMike:

 

I mean, what I've heard as what the Pirates offered isn't good enough for him then he's insane.

 

Now for some back-story, rumbunter believes Meadows & Bell are off the table, but has hinted at offers built around Glasnow & Newman. My best guess at the offer he's implying in his tweet would be something Glasnow, Keller, & Newman. That's three top 50 prospects, including one who is considered a top 10 prospect by many publications. I'd probably need Bell instead of Keller to make a deal, but the point is that's a pretty strong offer. By all means, it's not a perfect offer as we'd ideally like an elite positional prospect like Meadows as the headliner.

 

So here's my question for the people who say Hahn should wait it out until his demands are met. Would you pass up on an offer of Glasnow, Bell, & Newman right now? Would that be considered settling if Hahn has his sights on prospects like Meadows, Torres, Frazier, etc? I'm just interested in hearing everyone's thoughts here, because that's an offer I would accept in a heartbeat.

[caulfield12]

What about Keller, Bell and Newman?

[Soha]

What about Keller, Bell and Newman?

 

I would prefer this. Glasnow's control problems concern me as a headliner in any type of deal. At any rate, I don't think the Sox should move on any deal with the Pirates if Bell or Meadows isn't in it. According to reports they are untouchable.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Soha

[Dam8610]

I would prefer this. Glasnow's control problems concern me as a headliner in any type of deal. At any rate, I don't think the Sox should move on any deal with the Pirates if Bell or Meadows isn't in it. According to reports they are untouchable.

 

Control issues are the thing the White Sox are best at fixing. If another team is undervaluing a pitcher because of control issues, that's EXACTLY the player the White Sox should target.

[Con te Giolito]

Reluctant to give up Robertson & Melky? Those guys have no markets right now. I think you're really reaching here. This idea they faked a rebuild in order to trade the pro-LaRoche crowd is tinfoil hat crazy.

Dont misconstrue what I'm saying. They didn't fake a rebuild just to get rid of Sale and Eaton, but they were definitely more motivated to be rid of them and in the case of Sale settled for less from Boston to have him gone.

[caulfield12]

Dont misconstrue what I'm saying. They didn't fake a rebuild just to get rid of Sale and Eaton, but they were definitely more motivated to be rid of them and in the case of Sale settled for less from Boston to have him gone.

 

Ummm...in the end, it was the cumulative haul from those two trades, made possible by playing Boston and Washington against each other.

 

But I guess there will always be Sox fans who will swear Hahn screwed up because he should have gotten Benintendi, Robles or Devers as well.

[Con te Giolito]

Ummm...in the end, it was the cumulative haul from those two trades, made possible by playing Boston and Washington against each other.

 

But I guess there will always be Sox fans who will swear Hahn screwed up because he should have gotten Benintendi, Robles or Devers as well.

If he's willing to wait a month for the right deal for Jose Quintana he could've done the same to get Rafael Devers from Boston.

[HeGone7]

Ummm...in the end, it was the cumulative haul from those two trades, made possible by playing Boston and Washington against each other.

 

But I guess there will always be Sox fans who will swear Hahn screwed up because he should have gotten Benintendi, Robles or Devers as well.

 

As opposed to Sox fans who think the deals are a victory before any of these flawed prospects have played a full MLB season. I don't blame Hahn, because I don't think he had clearance. However, this organization won't turn this around as quickly as they couldve if the firesale was last offseason.

[reiks12]

Control issues are the thing the White Sox are best at fixing. If another team is undervaluing a pitcher because of control issues, that's EXACTLY the player the White Sox should target.

 

Pirates might have the best pitching coaches in the game.

[steveno89]

If he's willing to wait a month for the right deal for Jose Quintana he could've done the same to get Rafael Devers from Boston.

 

Devers was never going to be in that deal. Boston knew nobody could match up with moncada as a headliner

[Con te Giolito]

Devers was never going to be in that deal. Boston knew nobody could match up with moncada as a headliner

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

[103 mph screwball]

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

Because they wanted to trade Sale. They are just pretending to trade Q. Trouble makers gone. New manager. Go for it!

[ChiSox59]

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

 

He got the best prospect in the game, plus an arguably top 5 pitching prospect. Plus a super interesting lottery ticket OF. I think a lot here thought the offer was one player light, and I obviously would have loved Devers, but hard to call it settling.

 

Nowhere near the same as settling for an offer like Tucker + Martes + Fischer type package. So much less interesting at the top.

 

A comparable package from the Astros would be Bregman + Martes + Fischer + some back end top 20 lottery ticket Sox like. We obviously aren't getting that.

Edited January 22, 2017 by ChiSox59

[Con te Giolito]

Because they wanted to trade Sale. They are just pretending to trade Q. Trouble makers gone. New manager. Go for it!

I won't go that far (at least yet), but to me it's clear that Eaton and Sale were headed out no matter what this offseason. There is much less motivation to move anyone else and will have to be blown away to move forward with a full tear down.

[SCCWS]

I won't go that far (at least yet), but to me it's clear that Eaton and Sale were headed out no matter what this offseason. There is much less motivation to move anyone else and will have to be blown away to move forward with a full tear down.

 

I think it is getting to the point where a full tear down will not happen or was not the plan. I can see holding out on Q but I think the fact that none of the 2nd tier players have been traded is a sign that the goal was to unload Eaton and Sale. Maybe that was a compromise between Hahn wanting a full tear and KW wanting a half-tear.

[Bob Sacamano]

I think it is getting to the point where a full tear down will not happen or was not the plan. I can see holding out on Q but I think the fact that none of the 2nd tier players have been traded is a sign that the goal was to unload Eaton and Sale. Maybe that was a compromise between Hahn wanting a full tear and KW wanting a half-tear.

 

Those second tiers guys really don't have much a market either though.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think it is getting to the point where a full tear down will not happen or was not the plan. I can see holding out on Q but I think the fact that none of the 2nd tier players have been traded is a sign that the goal was to unload Eaton and Sale. Maybe that was a compromise between Hahn wanting a full tear and KW wanting a half-tear.

Which second tier guys should have been traded? No reason to sell low on Abreu, Frazier, or Robertson. No one was trading for Melky when comparable players are available via free agency for less. The only guy that would give me any cause for concern is Jones and I think an argument could made that his value increases significantly with some closing experience.

 

A big chunk of these guys will be moved during the season. If this was another re-tool, they'd be filling some holes with legit players and reclamation projects.

[Bananarchy]

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

It's been said already, but Moncada is a total stud prospect. It's also worth noting Q's control and Sale's attitude as factors in why Q plays with pinstripes and Sale doesn't.

[steveno89]

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

 

Moncada is one of, if not the best prospect in baseball. Kopech is a big time rising prospect who is now in the top thirty

 

Basabe is a nice third piece and Diaz is a bullpen lottery ticket

 

I'd hardly call that settling for sale. Moncada can be a franchise player for the white sox.

[Con te Giolito]

I'm not asking anyone to sell me on the Boston players. What I am asking is if Hahn was so eager to trade Sale even if his price wasn't met why won't he do the same for Quintana? And why is everyone so willing to excuse this double standard? I mean I see a lot of people who say "well if they won't meet Hahn's price they should jus t keep him", but Boston didn't meet Hahn's price on Sale and everyone rushes to tell me how great that trade was.

 

I want the Sox to do well, but I'm getting to the point where I have serious issues with how this rebuild is taking shape. There is no reason Melky, Fraz, Abreu, Jones, Robertson, Migo etc. should ALL be on the team to open the season. The "well the market for these guys hasn't developed" excuse doesn't work. A serious market has developed for Quintana but they're not trading him, multiple teams have been connected to Robertson but talks around him are dead (they should feel lucky to give him away to avoid paying him), Frazier and Melky both walk away for nothing in a year...I don't know. It's not even February yet so I'm not going to start assuming things, but I am going to ask questions about the motivations of the front office to move the players they did.

[steveno89]

I'm not asking anyone to sell me on the Boston players. What I am asking is if Hahn was so eager to trade Sale even if his price wasn't met why won't he do the same for Quintana? And why is everyone so willing to excuse this double standard? I mean I see a lot of people who say "well if they won't meet Hahn's price they should jus t keep him", but Boston didn't meet Hahn's price on Sale and everyone rushes to tell me how great that trade was.

 

I want the Sox to do well, but I'm getting to the point where I have serious issues with how this rebuild is taking shape. There is no reason Melky, Fraz, Abreu, Jones, Robertson, Migo etc. should ALL be on the team to open the season. The "well the market for these guys hasn't developed" excuse doesn't work. A serious market has developed for Quintana but they're not trading him, multiple teams have been connected to Robertson but talks around him are dead (they should feel lucky to give him away to avoid paying him), Frazier and Melky both walk away for nothing in a year...I don't know. It's not even February yet so I'm not going to start assuming things, but I am going to ask questions about the motivations of the front office to move the players they did.

 

We have no idea what offers have been made on any of the players you mentioned. If a deal could be made then Hahn would pull the trigger, obviously that has not happened.

 

You're advocating settling for less on Quintana, which we have no reason to do. It took at least a year of sale trade talks for the deal to finally happen, be patient.

 

Trust the organization with the rebuild until they fail

[Con te Giolito]

We have no idea what offers have been made on any of the players you mentioned. If a deal could be made then Hahn would pull the trigger, obviously that has not happened.

 

You're advocating settling for less on Quintana, which we have no reason to do. It took at least a year of sale trade talks for the deal to finally happen, be patient.

 

Trust the organization with the rebuild until they fail

I can reasonably assume that the Sox have been offered a similar deal that the Rays were sent for Archer and that the Sox are leaving it on the table because they want Musgrove or Bregman. Not taking much of a leap on that, and I think that's a good deal that makes the Sox better long term.

 

Also if they had been shopping Sale for a year I would hope they have also had talks on Quintana. This FO can do more than one thing at a time.

[ChiSox59]

I can reasonably assume that the Sox have been offered a similar deal that the Rays were sent for Archer and that the Sox are leaving it on the table because they want Musgrove or Bregman. Not taking much of a leap on that, and I think that's a good deal that makes the Sox better long term.

 

Also if they had been shopping Sale for a year I would hope they have also had talks on Quintana. This FO can do more than one thing at a time.

 

You say you won't make assumptions, and then you make enormous assumptions. Shocking.

[steveno89]

I can reasonably assume that the Sox have been offered a similar deal that the Rays were sent for Archer and that the Sox are leaving it on the table because they want Musgrove or Bregman. Not taking much of a leap on that, and I think that's a good deal that makes the Sox better long term.

 

Also if they had been shopping Sale for a year I would hope they have also had talks on Quintana. This FO can do more than one thing at a time.

 

Your reaching to assume a certain trade offer was made. We just don't know.

 

Tucker, martes and paulino is not getting it done. We are better keeping Quintana than dealing him for a subpar offer like that