Teams have upped their offers in Q derby in the last week

[fredmanrique]

Dude, super strong opinions without the facts are hot right now. To the open minded, they also become annoying...

 

In the game of what ifs, what if houston isnt including martes in a sox offer?

 

I remember reading that. What if the third guy in a glasnow, newman deal is just diaz, not keller.

 

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

[Con te Giolito]

You say you won't make assumptions, and then you make enormous assumptions. Shocking.

There are have been two reports about specific packages being talked about with Houston I am not pulling anything out of thin air.

[ChiSox59]

There are have been two reports about specific packages being talked about with Houston I am not pulling anything out of thin air.

 

Again, you're assuming pieces 4 and 5 in the rumored Martes + Tucker + Paulino ++ trade are meaningful pieces. You're also assuming that the Astros value Archer and Q the same, when in fact we've heard that the Astros declined a similar but arguably less impressive package in Martes+Musgrove + Tucker for Q (especially if pieces 4 and 5 in the Archer package are significant pieces like Fischer and Reed - another assumption you've previously made).

 

So, yes, you are making major assumiptions that have very little validity.

Edited January 22, 2017 by ChiSox59

[bighurt574]

I'm not asking anyone to sell me on the Boston players. What I am asking is if Hahn was so eager to trade Sale even if his price wasn't met why won't he do the same for Quintana? And why is everyone so willing to excuse this double standard? I mean I see a lot of people who say "well if they won't meet Hahn's price they should jus t keep him", but Boston didn't meet Hahn's price on Sale and everyone rushes to tell me how great that trade was.

 

I want the Sox to do well, but I'm getting to the point where I have serious issues with how this rebuild is taking shape. There is no reason Melky, Fraz, Abreu, Jones, Robertson, Migo etc. should ALL be on the team to open the season. The "well the market for these guys hasn't developed" excuse doesn't work. A serious market has developed for Quintana but they're not trading him, multiple teams have been connected to Robertson but talks around him are dead (they should feel lucky to give him away to avoid paying him), Frazier and Melky both walk away for nothing in a year...I don't know. It's not even February yet so I'm not going to start assuming things, but I am going to ask questions about the motivations of the front office to move the players they did.

 

Why do you assume Hahn's price wasn't met for Sale? Because we didn't get Betts/Benintendi or whatever crazy package we were asking a year ago? That's sort of silly. Boston agreed to include Moncada and that got the deal done. If another franchise is willing to give up a similar headliner for Q, a deal likely gets done.

Edited January 22, 2017 by bighurt574

[Con te Giolito]

Why do you assume Hahn's price wasn't met for Sale? Because we didn't get Betts/Benintendi or whatever crazy package we were asking a year ago? That's sort of silly. Boston agreed to include Moncada and that got the deal done. If another franchise is willing to give up a similar headliner for Q, a deal likely gets done.

It has been reported that Hahn's demand was Moncada+Kopech+Devers and Dombrowski refused to give that up. Hahn settled for Basabe and Diaz, which is a pretty huge downgrade from Devers at this point in time.

[bighurt574]

It has been reported that Hahn's demand was Moncada+Kopech+Devers and Dombrowski refused to give that up. Hahn settled for Basabe and Diaz, which is a pretty huge downgrade from Devers at this point in time.

 

And? It's a negotiation. You never get your first ask on a trade this big. That doesn't mean you "settled" or didn't have your asking price met. Since a deal got done, basically by definition, Hahn's price was met. And there sure seems to be a consensus that he got great value. Obviously not there yet on Q. No double standard.

[soxforlife05]

It has been reported that Hahn's demand was Moncada+Kopech+Devers and Dombrowski refused to give that up. Hahn settled for Basabe and Diaz, which is a pretty huge downgrade from Devers at this point in time.

 

They were never trading Moncada and Devers together because that creates a hole they can't fill internally at 3B. I'm surprised they didn't offer Frazier with Sale to try to get Devers added.

Edited January 23, 2017 by soxforlife05

[Dick Allen]

It has been reported that Hahn's demand was Moncada+Kopech+Devers and Dombrowski refused to give that up. Hahn settled for Basabe and Diaz, which is a pretty huge downgrade from Devers at this point in time.

Right, so figure the same thing is going on with Q. Boston upped their offer once it looked like Sale was headed to the Nats. If RH took what is currently being offered, there is a good chance you would be disappointed.

[Bob Sacamano]

They were never trading Moncada and Devers together because that creates a hole they can't fill internally at 3B. I'm surprised they didn't offer Frazier with Sale to try to get Devers added.

 

That still doesn't make sense. Devers is not playing in the MLB this year. And Frazier is only under control for one year.

Edited January 23, 2017 by soxfan2014

[BlackSox13]

This thread desperately needs a new credible rumor to discuss or a merciful death. Talk about NASCAR!

[caulfield12]

The Red Sox still don't trust Sandoval.

 

Moncada and Devers were their future at 3b...with Pedroia holding down second for at least 2-3 more years. You can't trade both options if you're Dombrowski.

 

If Devers was a corner outfielder, he would have been much more expendable.

 

 

But yeah, Sale and Frazier together would have made sense...but they have to muddle through this year hoping for the best at this point at that position while waiting on Devers to arrive.

Edited January 23, 2017 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

This thread desperately needs a new credible rumor to discuss or a merciful death. Talk about NASCAR!

The combined Q threads remind me of a NASCAR race. Lots of going in circles with a few crashes and fires along the way.

[Whisox05]

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/ast...twitter-premium

 

Astros trade for frontline starter looking less likely

[southsider2k5]

It has been reported that Hahn's demand was Moncada+Kopech+Devers and Dombrowski refused to give that up. Hahn settled for Basabe and Diaz, which is a pretty huge downgrade from Devers at this point in time.

 

I would think this part is obvious, but I will say it anyway. The difference you are talking about is the third piece in a deal. What we aren't getting offered in a deal for Q is the #1 piece we want. Negotiating on the 3rd player is much different than the first. We got the top prospect in baseball to start the Sale deal. We aren't even getting anyone's top prospect in their system in a deal for Q.

[reiks12]

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/ast...twitter-premium

 

Astros trade for frontline starter looking less likely

 

Actually dont believe its postering anymore. I think Luhnow is this delusional like his fanbase.

[caulfield12]

Actually dont believe its postering anymore. I think Luhnow is this delusional like his fanbase.

 

Posturing. As opposed to Michael Jordan's forte against defenders at the rim.

[Baron]

Posturing. As opposed to Michael Jordan's forte against defenders at the rim.

 

Luhnow is pretty delusional

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

The combined Q threads remind me of a NASCAR race. Lots of going in circles with a few crashes and fires along the way.

Not a great day for that metaphor....

[reiks12]

Posturing. As opposed to Michael Jordan's forte against defenders at the rim.

 

Haha nice, I knew better

[Con te Giolito]

I would think this part is obvious, but I will say it anyway. The difference you are talking about is the third piece in a deal. What we aren't getting offered in a deal for Q is the #1 piece we want. Negotiating on the 3rd player is much different than the first. We got the top prospect in baseball to start the Sale deal. We aren't even getting anyone's top prospect in their system in a deal for Q.

Devers is clearly superior to Kopech as a prospect.

 

Point is Hahn was willing to back off on his demands for Sale but not so with Quintana. And before anyone says "WELL WE DONT KNOW THE OFFER FROM LUHNOW"...yeah, we do know it. You can combine the reported Sox demand with the Rays offer and figure that the hangup is Joe Musgrove or (and I'm just assuming this because it makes sense) Bregman. If Hahn was willing to give up on Devers, a fringe top 10 overall prospect in the game, for Sale then why isn't he budging from Musgrove? Musgrove is good but he's not THAT good.

 

The only explanation that makes sense is that there was extra motivation to deal Sale. Whether it was because of the jersey incident and LaRoche embarassment or them identifying a fatal flaw poised to torpedo Sale's career (this is actually plausible, Sale was frustrating to watch at times last year) I dont know, and I dont think anyone ever will exactly.

 

NOT SAYING THE REBUILD IS A FARCE

NOT SAYING THERE IS A CONSPIRACY

Just saying have just been players valued more than others based on little, if any, apparent baseball merit.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[flavum]

MLB Network's Top 10 Starting Pitchers Right Now...the name Jose Quintana didn't come up once. John Smoltz actually went to top 20...nope, not there either.

[klaus kinski]

MLB Network's Top 10 Starting Pitchers Right Now...the name Jose Quintana didn't come up once. John Smoltz actually went to top 20...nope, not there either.

And I think many teams also don't see him as a difference maker warranting Sale-type prospects.

[BlackSox13]

The combined Q threads remind me of a NASCAR race. Lots of going in circles with a few crashes and fires along the way.

Ha ha, somehow I just knew you would get the reference.

 

 

[bighurt574]

The only explanation that makes sense is that Hahn got a package for Sale that warranted pulling the trigger (one that the industry has widely praised as a haul), and that he's yet to get such an offer for Q. Pretty simple. "Compromising" on the second or third piece in the deal, all while landing the #1 prospect in baseball, doesn't change that. In the end, Hahn's demands are pretty irrelevant. Depends what's on the table.

 

Devers is clearly superior to Kopech as a prospect.

 

Point is Hahn was willing to back off on his demands for Sale but not so with Quintana. And before anyone says "WELL WE DONT KNOW THE OFFER FROM LUHNOW"...yeah, we do know it. You can combine the reported Sox demand with the Rays offer and figure that the hangup is Joe Musgrove or (and I'm just assuming this because it makes sense) Bregman. If Hahn was willing to give up on Devers, a fringe top 10 overall prospect in the game, for Sale then why isn't he budging from Musgrove? Musgrove is good but he's not THAT good.

 

The only explanation that makes sense is that there was extra motivation to deal Sale. Whether it was because of the jersey incident and LaRoche embarassment or them identifying a fatal flaw poised to torpedo Sale's career (this is actually plausible, Sale was frustrating to watch at times last year) I dont know, and I dont think anyone ever will exactly.

 

NOT SAYING THE REBUILD IS A FARCE

NOT SAYING THERE IS A CONSPIRACY

Just saying have just been players valued more than others based on little, if any, apparent baseball merit.

Edited January 23, 2017 by bighurt574

[oldsox]

They were never trading Moncada and Devers together because that creates a hole they can't fill internally at 3B. I'm surprised they didn't offer Frazier with Sale to try to get Devers added.

Devers. One thing that always puzzled me on the Boston trade was that if DD insisted on taking Devers off the table, why didn't Sox get them to include another third baseman like Dalbach instead of Diaz, or in addition to Diaz.