Balta1701 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:33 PM) It was the worst kept secret in Chicago that many members of the organization wanted Sale traded after the jersey situation. Until someone else gets traded that wasn't considered a clubhouse issue, it's hard to completely rule out why just Sale and Eaton were traded. One thing I'm not sure I've seen anyone point out is that back in September or early October, Hahn had a line saying "You'll know our direction after the second trade" - something very close to that, specifically stating 2 trades. I have to admit, I find that line more interesting as of now, waiting for any movement other than the 2 trades he basically said would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:35 PM) One thing I'm not sure I've seen anyone point out is that back in September or early October, Hahn had a line saying "You'll know our direction after the second trade" - something very close to that, specifically stating 2 trades. I have to admit, I find that line more interesting as of now, waiting for any movement other than the 2 trades he basically said would happen. He said you would know the direction after the first couple of moves. There actually were a couple of moves before the trades, and he clearly has said time and time again they are closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild, would like to make 4 more of these trades, and has said other teams ownership has nixed 2 deals. The LaRoche connection conspiracy is crazy. It just worked out that the first 2 were Sale and Eaton, could have been Frazier and Q. Edited February 14, 2017 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 05:43 PM) He said you would know the direction after the first couple of moves. There actually were a couple of moves before the trades, and he clearly has said time and time again they are closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild, would like to make 4 more of these trades, and has said other teams ownership has nixed 2 deals. The LaRoche connection conspiracy is crazy. It just worked out that the first 2 were Sale and Eaton, could have been Frazier and Q. I actually thought it was the first move. I don't think they are this petty. What would be the point of trading those two and then just holding serve? Wouldn't we have a Napoli signing? A Wieters signing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 14, 2017 -> 02:43 AM) He said you would know the direction after the first couple of moves. There actually were a couple of moves before the trades, and he clearly has said time and time again they are closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild, would like to make 4 more of these trades, and has said other teams ownership has nixed 2 deals. The LaRoche connection conspiracy is crazy. It just worked out that the first 2 were Sale and Eaton, could have been Frazier and Q. Like I said, until he makes another trade, that conspiracy will exist. I'm sure it's not true, but there is no proof it's bogus either right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:49 PM) Like I said, until he makes another trade, that conspiracy will exist. I'm sure it's not true, but there is no proof it's bogus either right now. The conspiracy does not exist. It is a figment of imagination. How many players did they acquire this offseason on major league contracts? If they weren't truly rebuilding something more significant than Geo Soto would have been acquired and even he isn't on the 40 man yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:43 PM) He said you would know the direction after the first couple of moves. There actually were a couple of moves before the trades, and he clearly has said time and time again they are closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild, would like to make 4 more of these trades, and has said other teams ownership has nixed 2 deals. The LaRoche connection conspiracy is crazy. It just worked out that the first 2 were Sale and Eaton, could have been Frazier and Q. It's beyond crazy. And I think people will realize this very quickly, as I fully expect the Sox to very active on the trade market all season and not just wait until the deadline. I'd be absolutely shocked if Quintana, Frazier, Melky, & Robertson were on this team come August 1st and wouldn't be surprised if a move or two were made between now and May. Moves are coming, we all just need to patient despite how painful that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:49 PM) I actually thought it was the first move. I don't think they are this petty. What would be the point of trading those two and then just holding serve? Wouldn't we have a Napoli signing? A Wieters signing? Exactly, they would have replaced these guys with legit replacements and not Derek Holland & Avi Garcia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:49 PM) I actually thought it was the first move. I don't think they are this petty. What would be the point of trading those two and then just holding serve? Wouldn't we have a Napoli signing? A Wieters signing? Right. They would have improved the mutliple holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Mattchoo @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:29 PM) I have come to the conclusion that the trades made this offseason were related to the LaRoche fiasco. Anyone hear the caller on 670 this morning at about 8:50? A guy called in saying he had a source that JR told management to only trade one of Sale or Q There is an entire season of teams trying to get a deal done for Q that shows otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:49 PM) Like I said, until he makes another trade, that conspiracy will exist. I'm sure it's not true, but there is no proof it's bogus either right now. A lack of other deals isn't proof that there is a conspiracy either. It is proof that the off season trade market sucked. Remember Detroit was going to sell off this winter too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 14, 2017 -> 02:18 AM) There is an entire season of teams trying to get a deal done for Q that shows otherwise. Again, I don't buy the conspiracy AT ALL, but all that does is fuel those that think the clubhouse issues is what caused the trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:43 PM) He said you would know the direction after the first couple of moves. There actually were a couple of moves before the trades, and he clearly has said time and time again they are closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild, would like to make 4 more of these trades, and has said other teams ownership has nixed 2 deals. The LaRoche connection conspiracy is crazy. It just worked out that the first 2 were Sale and Eaton, could have been Frazier and Q. He specifically said it that way because last winter he said something to the extent that you will know our direction after our first deal, and their first deal was signing someone to a minor league deal, and people called him on it. This time around he said a little more ambiguous to prevent that. http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-white-so...t-fit-white-sox “Certainly with our first major transaction and the ones that follow behind, that will make it clear about which direction we intend to go,” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 07:49 PM) I actually thought it was the first move. I don't think they are this petty. What would be the point of trading those two and then just holding serve? Wouldn't we have a Napoli signing? A Wieters signing? In addition to all of the guys who have been subject to pretty steady trade rumors (Q, Robertson, Frazier) this is part two of why I don't buy the tinfoil hat thing about it only being a cover to trade trouble makers. This team brought in nothing at the major league level over the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:01 PM) Exactly, they would have replaced these guys with legit replacements and not Derek Holland & Avi Garcia. Especially with as cheap some some of the free agents are out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:27 PM) Especially with as cheap some some of the free agents are out there. Exactly, the fact we didn't add a legit DH on the cheap should be proof to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:30 PM) Exactly, the fact we didn't add a legit DH on the cheap should be proof to all. Nor a catcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 05:54 PM) The conspiracy does not exist. It is a figment of imagination. How many players did they acquire this offseason on major league contracts? If they weren't truly rebuilding something more significant than Geo Soto would have been acquired and even he isn't on the 40 man yet. You mean Derek Holland, Dylan Covey and Geo Soto aren't being paid to put the Sox over the hump and into the playoffs ? That's disappointing news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) QUOTE (HeGone7 @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 04:40 PM) That's another one of those glass half-full vs half-empty type stats. Q has that reputation to an extent, but I think that is mainly just Sox fans who have watched him w/frustration over the years. He has 1 complete game I think for his career, which is what I think people mean. It's a very "Q" type statistic because it just reinforces that he isn't great, but he is consistently good. His extreme's, in this case, like a pitcher who throws a CG or gets bombed before the 4th inning don't exist and he settles in the middle with several "20 out" outings. Similar to the rebuttles to his WAR argument. Which is that, sure "over the last three years he is a top 10 WAR pitcher" but he has never finished top 10 in a season (at least per BR). Once again, it demonstrates that he is very good and consistent but he lacks the upside to be "elite" in the eyes of other organizations. Or it at least gives them ammunition/leverage for negotiating his trade. Someone recently posted that they had potentially 20 guys they'd be willing to take ahead of him and that person was likely correct. Whether we want to ACCEPT it or not is entirely up to you, but there are 20 guys out there that are either already better or have more upside than Q. Most teams, right or wrong, will lean towards the upside at the level where Q is. They can "fix" the flaws for that guy to reach his potential being the logic. So while that is a nice stat, and I, personally, think in today's day-in-age with bullpens this should increase his value to teams. You also mentioned it was Sale + a bunch of guys at 20 in the AL. Depending on what "a bunch" means and how many guys we add from the NL, it may be less important than we think. I'd imagine there is a lot with 19 as well. Which circles us back to the "upside" debate that teams will make there. 1 more out everytime, or the potential to go 9 good ones when it counts. I wish I could respond in a more accurate way but I cannot find any stats on the outs per start thing. I saw it on MLBN and I cannot actually remember if the stat was for the AL or all MLB . I just saw Sale at the top with 21 and at least 5 guys tied for 2nd at 20 which included Q. Without belaboring the point it's just another stat to show that if you think Q is not an elite pitcher and we can argue that all day , one thing is clear . When you add up all the positives and there are many to be sure., he is an elite VALUE and that is the point of the matter. How valuable is a very good , never injured, youngish, inexpensive guy for another 4 years ? Whether or not he is elite on a year by year basis isn't really the point. When injuries can devastate teams, payroll cripple roster moves, inconsistencies from year to year baffle your team mates and front office Quintana is and most likely will continue to be that guy you can count on to give your team things that will put your team in the playoffs if surrounded by a near playoff caliber team. Quintana is without question an elite value and pitcher when you add up all the things that matter. Edited February 14, 2017 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:20 PM) Again, I don't buy the conspiracy AT ALL, but all that does is fuel those that think the clubhouse issues is what caused the trades. I will end this with Rick Hahn's own words. But, yes, we did have two deals—with different clubs, involving different players—die at the ownership approval stage when the other clubs decided in the end that the deal did not work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 09:55 PM) I will end this with Rick Hahn's own words. Let's hope that all the trade talk, fact or fiction, does not have a negative effect on Q. We need him to pitch like a #1 this year until Hahn is able to get what he wants for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 13, 2017 -> 08:20 PM) Again, I don't buy the conspiracy AT ALL, but all that does is fuel those that think the clubhouse issues is what caused the trades. People who have those opinions don't matter though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Daryl Van Schouwen @CST_soxvan 1m1 minute ago All-Star left-hander Jose Quintana will talk later this morning, but after today will politely decline to discuss trade rumors. #WhiteSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 14, 2017 -> 11:17 AM) Daryl Van Schouwen @CST_soxvan 1m1 minute ago All-Star left-hander Jose Quintana will talk later this morning, but after today will politely decline to discuss trade rumors. #WhiteSox Q is a dude you build around, such a pro. Its a damn shame we dont have the luxury to do that when he is our only real asset left to build for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 He's the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 14, 2017 -> 11:17 AM) Daryl Van Schouwen @CST_soxvan 1m1 minute ago All-Star left-hander Jose Quintana will talk later this morning, but after today will politely decline to discuss trade rumors. #WhiteSox I feel so bad for the poor guy. He doesn't deserve to have swarms of reporters and rumors nagging at him everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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