President Donald Trump: The Thread

[southsider2k5]

My post got deleted accidentally so Ill paraphrase.

 

You are the one who keeps comparing the US to Europe, it is your argument, you need to support it.

 

But since you want some differences.

 

1) Europe is a continent, the US is a country.

 

2) Europe is comprised of different countries, the United States is a single country.

 

3) The US explicitly separated church and state.

 

I could keep going, but I think the first problem you have is that you are lumping "Europe" together instead of discussing individual European countries.

 

The last part is, you keep using terms and you fail to define them which is really poor form. My original comment about the US isnt a country of assimilation, was based on the idea of "forced" assimilation. After reading more of your posts, I now believe you were referring to "cultural" assimilation. You arent specific enough when you articulate your position.

 

And its interesting that you loled about respect for laws:

 

http://www.ceousa.org/immigration-assimili...on/assimilation

 

 

 

 

 

Not saying I agree with that website, but most would agree a part of assimilation is respecting the laws of the country you are in. And what is sad/funny, is that many of the problems Muslim assimilation has in Europe is based on laws in certain European countries, such as the burka ban, that make it impossible for Mulsims to truly assimilate.

 

But maybe youre right, maybe I dont know have a freshman level understanding of this subject, as clearly in your opinion a continent is comparable to a country.

 

This is BY FAR the most important thing to remember. When people post things about locking their doors and the like, keep in mind no individual wrote a constitution with all of the rights and responsibilities that are mapped out in it. This is pretty straight forward

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 

When you pass an executive order that essentially establishes a law that bans people because of a religion, you are flat out in violation of the constitution. It would be another thing if you had shutdown all immigration to try to fix the system, because at least that would effect everyone equally s***ty. This law explicitly targets people on the basis of one religion in overwhelming numbers. One could have even tried to make an argument that this wasn't the case until the President actually went a step further and talked about giving preferential treatment to Christians.

 

While a lot of the country will look at that and see no problem with it, realize that if this stands, this gives a legal precedent to any future President to do the same to Christians, or any other religion, in the name of "safety" Giving that power to anyone should scare you. The constitution agreed this was dangerous, and flat out said so. Using scare tactics to try to circumvent it is a flat out power grab.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

 

 

Well, less than 30% of the country voted for him and most of them don't know how to use the internet.

[Soxbadger]

It's like you entirely ignored SSK's post about assimilating immigrants in the US across the last 200 years - oh wait, you hand waved that away as a high school history lesson.

 

The point is that immigrants generally take a generation to assimilate, and have throughout American history. That's because of language gaps in the first generation, close communities made up of the same ethnicity, etc. The second generation learns the language and assimilates. In a lot of cases, they still hold on to their religion and identify with cultural things from their homeland, but that's no different than the way the Irish, Italians, Germans, etc. identify with their native land multiple generations down the road.

 

Your underlying point is the same point that has been made by Nativists and Isolationists about the "other" since this country was founded. But your argument actually goes further. In the above paragraph, you seem to be arguing that Muslim refugees are incapable of assimilating, and that their inability to assimilate leads to terror attacks (an argument that is not even a little bit backed up by any amount of data). Thus, your argument - if I'm understanding correctly - would support a blanket ban on further immigration by Muslims into the USA because none of your arguments are limited to the countries in Trump's ban. Which is a startling and really, really, un-American (at least it's antithesis to the values that this country was founded upon) argument to be making (not to mention that it's insulting to the many, many Muslims who are an important fabric of what makes America great).

 

 

And this is why its really hard to even pin down what his argument is. At first I just thought it was naturally about countries that are considered to sponsor terrorism, and that those countries posed a danger/risk. Once that argument was debunked, it seems that it has moved towards the more "Jews dont assimilate in German culture, so we should keep the Jews out." Oh wait, I mean Muslims dont assimilate in European culture. Oh never mind, I meant Muslims may not assimilate well in the United States because they dont assimilate well in Europe.

 

When in reality, a lot of our families didnt assimilate well in their European country of origin, which is exactly why they came here. And strangely, when they were removed from their European country of origin, they seemed to do just fine in the US. So I am not sure why we would think that Muslims are somehow different than Jews, Protestants, Catholics, or any other religious group that has found sanctuary in the United States.

 

 

This is BY FAR the most important thing to remember. When people post things about locking their doors and the like, keep in mind no individual wrote a constitution with all of the rights and responsibilities that are mapped out in it. This is pretty straight forward

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 

When you pass an executive order that essentially establishes a law that bans people because of a religion, you are flat out in violation of the constitution. It would be another thing if you had shutdown all immigration to try to fix the system, because at least that would effect everyone equally s***ty. This law explicitly targets people on the basis of one religion in overwhelming numbers. One could have even tried to make an argument that this wasn't the case until the President actually went a step further and talked about giving preferential treatment to Christians.

 

While a lot of the country will look at that and see no problem with it, realize that if this stands, this gives a legal precedent to any future President to do the same to Christians, or any other religion, in the name of "safety" Giving that power to anyone should scare you. The constitution agreed this was dangerous, and flat out said so. Using scare tactics to try to circumvent it is a flat out power grab.

 

 

At least Trump is trying to cloak it under "security" concerns and saying that its "countries" not religions. Conte just stepped up the rhetoric and made it all about Muslim religion.

 

Interesting fact:

 

http://www.tolerance.org/publication/ameri...s-united-states

 

Mohammed Alexander Russell Webb, an early American convert to Islam, established a mosque and mission in New York City in 1893. The first mosque structure built in the United States for the purpose of serving a Muslim community was in Ross, North Dakota (1929) and the oldest surviving mosque is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa (1934).

 

But I guess none of those Muslims ever assimilated, because you know, Europe.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Soxbadger

[Brian]

Con te Giolito sounds like that jerk windbag from the past that got banned. DukeNukeEm?

[southsider2k5]

And this is why its really hard to even pin down what his argument is. At first I just thought it was naturally about countries that are considered to sponsor terrorism, and that those countries posed a danger/risk. Once that argument was debunked, it seems that it has moved towards the more "Jews dont assimilate in German culture, so we should keep the Jews out." Oh wait, I mean Muslims dont assimilate in European culture. Oh never mind, I meant Muslims may not assimilate well in the United States because they dont assimilate well in Europe.

 

When in reality, a lot of our families didnt assimilate well in their European country of origin, which is exactly why they came here. And strangely, when they were removed from their European country of origin, they seemed to do just fine in the US. So I am not sure why we would think that Muslims are somehow different than Jews, Protestants, Catholics, or any other religious group that has found sanctuary in the United States.

 

 

 

 

At least Trump is trying to cloak it under "security" concerns and saying that its "countries" not religions. Conte just stepped up the rhetoric and made it all about Muslim religion.

 

Interesting fact:

 

http://www.tolerance.org/publication/ameri...s-united-states

 

 

 

But I guess none of those Muslims ever assimilated, because you know, Europe.

 

My hometown holds a pretty cool historical distinction. Because of a massive middle eastern migration we had a huge population push come to us primarily for work in the Haskel Barker and then Pullman Standard train car factory starting in the 1880s, but really up until the Great Depression. We had a big push especially from Syria. At one point we had the largest middle eastern population of anywhere in the WORLD outside of the actual middle east. Our first mosque was built in 1924 primarily from donations from Syrian and Lebanese workers. It was literally one of the very first Shia mosques built anywhere in the US. The first Islamic society in my hometown was established in 1914.

 

I quite literally have 100+ years of history of Islam in my home town. Assimilation? Uh yeah. Absolutely. All of the multi-generational families I grew up with you barely knew they were Muslims. Because of this we still draw new immigrants to the area because they know there is a support system already in place, so they know they have some institutions that will help them adapt to the culture.

 

In that time frame, you know how many terror attacks I have seen? Guess.

[RockRaines]

Would you be offended if I implied that you were a member of the KKK?

Can you quote the post that you are referring to?

[RockRaines]

And you are hung up on this idea that I'm afraid of terror attacks and that its "risky" to let them in lest we invite more attacks onto our shores. That's not really the point and never has been. Terror attacks are just symptoms of larger issue Muslim refugees have assimilating into the native culture, but because you dont really understand what assimilation is (the fact that you think it means they have to respect our laws actually made me LOL) having this discussion with you is worthless. It'd be like asking my dog how to fix something on my car. I'm not falling for it, and my refusal to insult my own intelligence and do battle with somebody who is literally clueless on the topic is not "running away from the argument".

Like which attacks?

[Iwritecode]

In that time frame, you know how many terror attacks I have seen? Guess.

 

Is it somewhere between 1 and -1,000,000?

[Soxbadger]

Like which attacks?

 

The ones in Europe.

 

Remember the entire premise of his argument is that Europe and the United States are comparable, and that the US should wait 5 years to see how things shake out in Europe before we make a decision.

 

[RockRaines]

The ones in Europe.

 

Remember the entire premise of his argument is that Europe and the United States are comparable, and that the US should wait 5 years to see how things shake out in Europe before we make a decision.

Oh ok, I mustve missed that. My EMEA team hasnt seemed to be very worried about that stuff, but whatever.

[Soxbadger]

Oh ok, I mustve missed that. My EMEA team hasnt seemed to be very worried about that stuff, but whatever.

 

 

lol

 

I was just being sarcastic. But unfortunately it really does seem to be his argument. Which given his propensity for insulting other peoples knowledge, is either ironic or sad.

[StrangeSox]

Tillerson was confirmed as SoS, 56-43.

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/02/01/512856220/tr...tate-department

 

That's one dangerously unqualified and likely heavily conflicted nominee confirmed.

[Iwritecode]

And in more depressing news, 49% of Americans actually support Trump's Muslim Ban.

 

That's because this ban appeals to all the people that think all these scary brown people are coming over to terk ur jerbs and use up all our medical services and impose sharia law on us and fly planes into our buildings. Lately my FB page has been filled with memes and pictures saying such. I don't even bother trying to explain things to them anymore. There's just too many and they don't listen when I do anyway.

 

Just yesterday I had a debate with someone when they posted a pic about how "illegal immigrants can come here and get free healthcare while our veterans get put on a waiting list and no care". I asked because I was honestly curious, "What medical care is available to illegals that somehow isn't available to veterans?" I never did get an answer.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Iwritecode

[StrangeSox]

You'll also probably notice that the same people saying "why do you care about immigrants when HOMELESS VETERANS!?" curiously don't ever bring up homeless veterans in any context other than as a deflection.

[NorthSideSox72]

And in more depressing news, 49% of Americans actually support Trump's Muslim Ban.

I'm actually going to say that this isn't depressing news, but is good news. Stick with me here.

 

What do you think that percentage was a century ago, if you asked about Italians? Or more so, immigrants from Africa or the Middle East? Or Chinese?

 

I guarantee you the percentage of people who would have supported a ban of some sort would be much higher than 49%. This is where I hate that people say the country hasn't made progress. It absolutely has. Does racism and blind fear still exist? Hell yeah, but it's not as dominant a force as it was. We are making ground.

 

Now I don't like that 49% still fall for all of this while ignoring the hundreds or thousands of things that create more material risk. But I do like that the we have become better.

 

[Harry Chappas]

Oh ok, I mustve missed that. My EMEA team hasnt seemed to be very worried about that stuff, but whatever.

 

People I am associated with that travel to Europe on a regular basis believe that it is a real issue, especially in southern Europe (Italy and Greece).

 

I have a friend that works in governmental security that tells everyone to avoid Europe at all cost and another that travels to Germany every other month for business that feels the same way.

 

I am not certain if this is an over reaction on their part but they have been doing this travelling for the last 15 years.

 

 

[bigruss]

People I am associated with that travel to Europe on a regular basis believe that it is a real issue, especially in southern Europe (Italy and Greece).

 

I have a friend that works in governmental security that tells everyone to avoid Europe at all cost and another that travels to Germany every other month for business that feels the same way.

 

I am not certain if this is an over reaction on their part but they have been doing this travelling for the last 15 years.

I've got friends living in Lux and they go to France, Germany, Belgium, etc all the time. They don't really worry about it that much, they were supposed to go to Paris right after the Paris attacks and cancelled that trip obviously but for the most part they and most of the people they are around aren't afraid of travelling around.

[Kyyle23]

I've got friends living in Lux and they go to France, Germany, Belgium, etc all the time. They don't really worry about it that much, they were supposed to go to Paris right after the Paris attacks and cancelled that trip obviously but for the most part they and most of the people they are around aren't afraid of travelling around.

 

My college roommate was going to see the Deftones at the Bataclan on the Sunday after that attack. If they had waited two days she could be dead. That is just surreal to me

[Harry Chappas]

I've got friends living in Lux and they go to France, Germany, Belgium, etc all the time. They don't really worry about it that much, they were supposed to go to Paris right after the Paris attacks and cancelled that trip obviously but for the most part they and most of the people they are around aren't afraid of travelling around.

 

Their thoughts are based on a comparative outlook over time. Their feeling is the situation has deteriorated over time in that region and should it progress as such is going to be a major security risk.

[caulfield12]

My hometown holds a pretty cool historical distinction. Because of a massive middle eastern migration we had a huge population push come to us primarily for work in the Haskel Barker and then Pullman Standard train car factory starting in the 1880s, but really up until the Great Depression. We had a big push especially from Syria. At one point we had the largest middle eastern population of anywhere in the WORLD outside of the actual middle east. Our first mosque was built in 1924 primarily from donations from Syrian and Lebanese workers. It was literally one of the very first Shia mosques built anywhere in the US. The first Islamic society in my hometown was established in 1914.

 

I quite literally have 100+ years of history of Islam in my home town. Assimilation? Uh yeah. Absolutely. All of the multi-generational families I grew up with you barely knew they were Muslims. Because of this we still draw new immigrants to the area because they know there is a support system already in place, so they know they have some institutions that will help them adapt to the culture.

 

In that time frame, you know how many terror attacks I have seen? Guess.

 

I worked in Indonesia in 2013 as a consultant helping to place top students from there into the US and they really had a strong network of homestay families in Pittsburgh, fwiw.

 

Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, suffered the Bali nightclub attack about a decade ago...not a peep about them in these conversations.

 

Of course, Trump has an international hotel there, as well.

Edited February 1, 2017 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

Tillerson was confirmed as SoS, 56-43.

 

http://www.npr.org/2017/02/01/512856220/tr...tate-department

 

That's one dangerously unqualified and likely heavily conflicted nominee confirmed.

 

 

‏@ReutersBiz

 

JUST IN: House approves resolution killing SEC requirement for oil, gas, mining companies to disclose payments to foreign governments

[Kyyle23]

@AP_Politics

 

BREAKING: GOP-controlled House passes measure to scuttle Obama regulation protecting streams from coal mining debris.

 

They are quite literally going to destroy everything

[Balta1701]

Not surprised. But that still doesn't mean we can't be outraged either. I would argue that Christians should be most outraged than anyone as this administration is in direct violation of the constitution by choosing to ban people on the basis of religion. This opens the the door to any and all religious discrimination into the legal realm in the name of "safety".

FWIW, I think there's a decent case that they made this ban "constitutional". They included all refugees, so that central American kids will get killed along with Iraqis who worked with the US occupying force. Trump may say he wants to prefer Christians but they've made no moves to do that. They've specifically targeted people from certain countries. Yes those countries are majority Muslim, but there are Christians and Jews in them and some of them would have been refugees. They are casualties as they should have known better than to be born in the wrong country.

 

There is however an equally strong and almost certain case that they are in violation of the law. This text comes from the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965:

No person shall receive any preference or priority or be discriminated against in the issuance of an immigrant visa because of the person’s race, sex, nationality, place of birth, or place of residence.

I'm pretty sure that's quite clear.

[RockRaines]

People I am associated with that travel to Europe on a regular basis believe that it is a real issue, especially in southern Europe (Italy and Greece).

 

I have a friend that works in governmental security that tells everyone to avoid Europe at all cost and another that travels to Germany every other month for business that feels the same way.

 

I am not certain if this is an over reaction on their part but they have been doing this travelling for the last 15 years.

Those are all americans traveling there though right? My co-workers live in the UK, France, Germany, Spain and Ireland. I got the impression they were less concerned than we are.

[RockRaines]

They are quite literally going to destroy everything

Business>environment for the next four years. Its going to be bad.