President Donald Trump: The Thread

[Reddy]

I have a bigger problem with Trump people continuing to flat out lie than I do with them meeting with someone who has dirt on another candidate. You know Clinton was doing the same s*** trying to find dirt on Trump. As you said, this stuff happens and will happen in the future.

You don't think it's a problem that it was clearly STATED that it was part of an ongoing effort by the Russian government to help Trump's candidacy? That doesn't bother you at all?

[StrangeSox]

Obama, I think, was in a kind of tough spot. Any public condemnation of the hack on the DNC could have provided the impression that Obama was attempting to help Clinton in the election. It seems like that's the reason that Obama handled the initial issue with kid gloves, and I can absolutely see the logic behind that decision.

 

McConnell explicitly threatened to turn the issue into a political one and claim Obama was tampering with the election if he came out beforehand.

 

Now I'm sure we'll here how this isn't about unprecedented actions by the entire leadership of the GOP and is actually s sign of both sides being bad (but Democrats worse)

[StrangeSox]

We keep getting told that we can't do anything about these other countries because of how dangerous they are, and the risk of war and millions of dead people. But when it comes to a country that has actually invaded neighbors, and has the second biggest nuclear arms set in the world, they have no problem antagonizing them for nothing more than political points. The risk here is so huge, infinitely bigger than taking action on NK. They are backing themselves into a corner where the only answer is going to be war with Russia, but the left doesn't care because Trump.

 

It's not nothing more than political points. Your fine with their interference, apparently, but I like my democratic elections to be more legitimate than that.

 

We've had stronger sanctions on Russia than this for longer. Their economy is bad and getting worse. There's no reason to make the assumption you are that anyone wants war with Russia or that doing something to stop their interference will lead to that for some reason.

 

 

[Reddy]

McConnell explicitly threatened to turn the issue into a political one and claim Obama was tampering with the election if he came out beforehand.

 

Now I'm sure we'll here how this isn't about unprecedented actions by the entire leadership of the GOP and is actually s sign of both sides being bad (but Democrats worse)

I honestly don't care. Grow some balls. Biggest issue I've had with Dems for years is that they've got absolutely no spines.

[southsider2k5]

Why this attempt at "Democrats are hypocrites and actually the bad ones here" is completely incoherent was already explained to you.

 

There is no previous equivalence to the situation we're in right now, and positions towards countries' internal domestic issues is not related to positions on foreign governments interfering in our domestic issues up to and including tampering with our voter rolls.

 

It was "explained", but not really well, mostly because it didn't make any sense at all outside of a political capital sense.

[Dick Allen]

Well if kissing Russia's ass is what is "safest" Trump is doing just that.

 

Now they have admitted to at least trying to collude with Russia. I think Jr did that. Trump has basically pissed off a lot of our allies, but continues to have his tongue on Putin's taint. Almost all his staff "forgot" to put down any of their meetings with Russians on their security clearance forms. Once the fake news failing NYT reported these meetings, they were remembered somehow as not being fake.

 

For something that is supposed to be fake news, all the facts so far seem to indicate otherwise.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Dick Allen

[illinilaw08]

We keep getting told that we can't do anything about these other countries because of how dangerous they are, and the risk of war and millions of dead people. But when it comes to a country that has actually invaded neighbors, and has the second biggest nuclear arms set in the world, they have no problem antagonizing them for nothing more than political points. The risk here is so huge, infinitely bigger than taking action on NK. They are backing themselves into a corner where the only answer is going to be war with Russia, but the left doesn't care because Trump.

 

This is such a giant leap. Because Congress and a special committee are investigating the extent to which Russia collaborated with the Republican Presidential campaign to hack the Democratic candidate, the left is backing itself into a corner where the only answer is war with Russia? I mean, we didn't end up in a shooting war with Russia during the Cold War. I'm skeptical how this Congressional investigation and/or sanctions are putting us down an inevitable path to war.

 

Contrast that with NK. If we invaded NK, the risk of an actual shooting war with China goes up exponentially. The best path to dealing with NK remains a regional solution, not a unilateral military decision by the USA.

[illinilaw08]

Eh, that's pretty weak. Obama already WAS helping Clinton. He was speaking on her behalf and endorsing her.

 

Come on Jenks, you know there's a difference between Obama campaigning for Clinton, and Obama revealing that there is evidence that (a) Russia hacked the DNC; and (b) the Trump campaign might have collaborated with Russia in doing so.

[illinilaw08]

I have a bigger problem with Trump people continuing to flat out lie than I do with them meeting with someone who has dirt on another candidate. You know Clinton was doing the same s*** trying to find dirt on Trump. As you said, this stuff happens and will happen in the future.

 

Even if that someone with dirt is a foreign agent which is in direct contravention of US law?

[StrangeSox]

It was "explained", but not really well, mostly because it didn't make any sense at all outside of a political capital sense.

 

Where and when have nk and Cuba interfered in our elections?

[StrangeSox]

I honestly don't care. Grow some balls. Biggest issue I've had with Dems for years is that they've got absolutely no spines.

 

I don't disagree, I'm just pointing out that the problem is much deeper than just Trump.

 

From McConnell blackmailing Obama over this to Ryan "haha seriously Trump being on Russias payroll doesn't leave this room" recording to the rest of the party being "concerned" but still enabling him at every step because he'll give them some policy results they want, the whole party is complicit.

[Brian]

Welp

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix...m=.20c535565ea9

[Reddy]

Wow. That's beautiful.

[bmags]

This is such a giant leap. Because Congress and a special committee are investigating the extent to which Russia collaborated with the Republican Presidential campaign to hack the Democratic candidate, the left is backing itself into a corner where the only answer is war with Russia? I mean, we didn't end up in a shooting war with Russia during the Cold War. I'm skeptical how this Congressional investigation and/or sanctions are putting us down an inevitable path to war.

 

Contrast that with NK. If we invaded NK, the risk of an actual shooting war with China goes up exponentially. The best path to dealing with NK remains a regional solution, not a unilateral military decision by the USA.

 

NK has the tacit approval of a country like China, who would view an invading force of western-friendly allies likely as an act of war. Russia doesn't have that help. It may have the ME countries.

 

Russia has NATO surrounding it's western border. Can it guarantee that China would have it's back if it's activities pushed to brink of war?

 

We have had a determent with Russia called NATO which had worked out well for preventing full scale war, along with nuclear weapons.

 

It is for some reason being undermined just when Russia has performed maybe it's most successful attack on the US since the fall of the USSR.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

i hope for a day when everyone, both sides of the aisle, can stop saying "well they did it too" and start saying "how can we make sure this never happens again?"

 

This administration has lied and continues to lie about everything related to Russia, and this administration is blaming Obama for not stopping them for dealing with russia. The circular logic is sickening and sad. I know all administrations have lied about things that have happened under their watch, but i think we all can agree that the expanding size and scope of this apparent grift happening in front of our very eyes is very troubling. I just wish someone within could grow a spine and take it all seriously.

 

 

[Reddy]

i hope for a day when everyone, both sides of the aisle, can stop saying "well they did it too" and start saying "how can we make sure this never happens again?"

 

This administration has lied and continues to lie about everything related to Russia, and this administration is blaming Obama for not stopping them for dealing with russia. The circular logic is sickening and sad. I know all administrations have lied about things that have happened under their watch, but i think we all can agree that the expanding size and scope of this apparent grift happening in front of our very eyes is very troubling. I just wish someone within could grow a spine and take it all seriously.

 

They have no need to take it seriously until voters like SS2k, etc take it seriously. They've got nothing to gain, otherwise.

[southsider2k5]

Let's be honest here. If this were actually about the security and clarity of our elections, the objective wouldn't have been to publicly detail every single vulnerability in our electoral process. Much like our government actually operates they would have denied the intrusions, they would have identified the vulnerabilities, and fixed them all without admitting anything ever happened to bring the legitimacy of our entire governmental structure into doubt, from the top all of the way down to every single local election.

 

If this were done like we have always done these things, we would continue to meddle in the elections of those who opposed us, again very silently, and figure out a way to even the score at the most inopportune times for Russia. We'd do like we have always done and run silent CIA campaigns to elect anti-Russian candidates hidden from having American fingerprints on the elections to even the score.

 

But this has never been about neither the clarity, nor the security of our elections, hence the willingness to hand every two bit hacker in the world the keys to our electoral process in exchange for ammo against Trump. This has never been about the sanctity of our electoral process as the left would rather delegitimize Trump, versus keeping American confidence in our elections. You can bet your ass that if Hillary Clinton had won the election, none of this would have become public, and if it had every one of those 17 intelligence agencies would be out front denying everything about it.

 

This is par for the course for the parties. The Republicans do everything in their power to personally target the President. The Democrats do everything in their power to delegitimize the President. The collateral effects of these actions is secondary for everything. They will worry about potential war with Russia later, and probably just blame it on Trump if it happens.

[Dick Allen]

Let's be honest here. If this were actually about the security and clarity of our elections, the objective wouldn't have been to publicly detail every single vulnerability in our electoral process. Much like our government actually operates they would have denied the intrusions, they would have identified the vulnerabilities, and fixed them all without admitting anything ever happened to bring the legitimacy of our entire governmental structure into doubt, from the top all of the way down to every single local election.

 

If this were done like we have always done these things, we would continue to meddle in the elections of those who opposed us, again very silently, and figure out a way to even the score at the most inopportune times for Russia. We'd do like we have always done and run silent CIA campaigns to elect anti-Russian candidates hidden from having American fingerprints on the elections to even the score.

 

But this has never been about neither the clarity, nor the security of our elections, hence the willingness to hand every two bit hacker in the world the keys to our electoral process in exchange for ammo against Trump. This has never been about the sanctity of our electoral process as the left would rather delegitimize Trump, versus keeping American confidence in our elections. You can bet your ass that if Hillary Clinton had won the election, none of this would have become public, and if it had every one of those 17 intelligence agencies would be out front denying everything about it.

 

This is par for the course for the parties. The Republicans do everything in their power to personally target the President. The Democrats do everything in their power to delegitimize the President. The collateral effects of these actions is secondary for everything. They will worry about potential war with Russia later, and probably just blame it on Trump if it happens.

What about the claim there was over 3 million fraudulent votes, and every.single. one. of. them. was for Hillary.

 

[illinilaw08]

Let's be honest here. If this were actually about the security and clarity of our elections, the objective wouldn't have been to publicly detail every single vulnerability in our electoral process. Much like our government actually operates they would have denied the intrusions, they would have identified the vulnerabilities, and fixed them all without admitting anything ever happened to bring the legitimacy of our entire governmental structure into doubt, from the top all of the way down to every single local election.

 

If this were done like we have always done these things, we would continue to meddle in the elections of those who opposed us, again very silently, and figure out a way to even the score at the most inopportune times for Russia. We'd do like we have always done and run silent CIA campaigns to elect anti-Russian candidates hidden from having American fingerprints on the elections to even the score.

 

But this has never been about neither the clarity, nor the security of our elections, hence the willingness to hand every two bit hacker in the world the keys to our electoral process in exchange for ammo against Trump. This has never been about the sanctity of our electoral process as the left would rather delegitimize Trump, versus keeping American confidence in our elections. You can bet your ass that if Hillary Clinton had won the election, none of this would have become public, and if it had every one of those 17 intelligence agencies would be out front denying everything about it.

 

This is par for the course for the parties. The Republicans do everything in their power to personally target the President. The Democrats do everything in their power to delegitimize the President. The collateral effects of these actions is secondary for everything. They will worry about potential war with Russia later, and probably just blame it on Trump if it happens.

 

The problem with this analysis is that IF the party currently in power collaborated with the Russians in influencing American elections, then doing nothing really doesn't do anything to keep the elections legitimate. There's no incentive for the Rs to not continue to collaborate with the Russians in 2018, 2020, and onward.

 

I think the important distinction here is that the investigation is not into whether the Russians hacked the DNC in an attempt to influence election. That's been known by the American intelligence community since well before November 2016. What distinguishes this event is the extent to which the Trump campaign collaborated with the Russians in that effort. There is no evidence that I am aware of in American history of Presidential campaigns collaborating with other foreign countries to influence our electoral process. In fact, doing so is explicitly illegal. To say that is par for the course is just flat out not true.

 

Looking beyond that, can you please explain to me how these investigations show "the willingness to hand every two bit hacker in the world the keys to our electoral process"? How have the investigations left our elections more exposed?

[StrangeSox]

Djt jr. only published the emails because he knew the nyt was about to.

 

The emails had been forwarded to kushner and manafort, so they know about this directly prior to the meeting.

 

Mueller had jurisdiction over this and prosecutorial powers. Wonder what will happen when the president pardons his son.

[Dick Allen]

Djt jr. only published the emails because he knew the nyt was about to.

 

The emails had been forwarded to kushner and manafort, so they know about this directly prior to the meeting.

 

Mueller had jurisdiction over this and prosecutorial powers. Wonder what will happen when the president pardons his son.

Didn't he say yesterday he had no idea who he was meeting with until they met.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Didn't he say yesterday he had no idea who he was meeting with until they met.

 

He also said the purpose of the meeting was to talk about US-Russian adoption policy. All these emails are about getting dirt on Hillary Clinton.

 

 

Remember when political people were at least GOOD at lying?

[Quin]

Any deflection, hand waving, both sides argumenarguments are sad at best and delusional at worst.

 

The only time Democrats did something of this magnitude was when their party was based in the South.

[StrangeSox]

He also said the purpose of the meeting was to talk about US-Russian adoption policy. All these emails are about getting dirt on Hillary Clinton.

 

 

Remember when political people were at least GOOD at lying?

 

The entire Trump clan being extremely incompetent is the only thing that's saved us so far.

[bmags]

Let's be honest here. If this were actually about the security and clarity of our elections, the objective wouldn't have been to publicly detail every single vulnerability in our electoral process. Much like our government actually operates they would have denied the intrusions, they would have identified the vulnerabilities, and fixed them all without admitting anything ever happened to bring the legitimacy of our entire governmental structure into doubt, from the top all of the way down to every single local election.

 

If this were done like we have always done these things, we would continue to meddle in the elections of those who opposed us, again very silently, and figure out a way to even the score at the most inopportune times for Russia. We'd do like we have always done and run silent CIA campaigns to elect anti-Russian candidates hidden from having American fingerprints on the elections to even the score.

 

But this has never been about neither the clarity, nor the security of our elections, hence the willingness to hand every two bit hacker in the world the keys to our electoral process in exchange for ammo against Trump. This has never been about the sanctity of our electoral process as the left would rather delegitimize Trump, versus keeping American confidence in our elections. You can bet your ass that if Hillary Clinton had won the election, none of this would have become public, and if it had every one of those 17 intelligence agencies would be out front denying everything about it.

 

This is par for the course for the parties. The Republicans do everything in their power to personally target the President. The Democrats do everything in their power to delegitimize the President. The collateral effects of these actions is secondary for everything. They will worry about potential war with Russia later, and probably just blame it on Trump if it happens.

 

This is ridiculous.

 

Is there any illegal action which is not actually the fault of the democrats?

 

Your post contains a lot of certainty in your own hypothetical. There was just a similar approach to trying to hack the French election, to which they were ALSO open about how the hack was performed by a foreign power.

 

And the report which detailed the vulnerabilities was leaked from an NSA contractor who is now in custody, not formally presented to the American public to save face.

 

It doesn't stand up.

 

This is the equivelant of sticking your fingers in your ears going neener neener.

 

You bring up many good points about the hell that partisanship is wreaking on our government and personal relationships. But I can't imagine a worse aspect of partisanship than basing your moral center exclusively on what the other side has done, especially when "other side" can be defined as some internet rando.