President Donald Trump: The Thread

[G&T]

Cybersecurity EO expected to be signed tomorrow

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/...raft-of-the.pdf

 

 

Sigh, I remember being taught in school about the 3 branches of government.

 

He's just copying Obama. Which is an odd choice considering he called Obama the worst president ever.

[The Beast]

Slightly off topic, but Goff and Bernstein had an epic call with some dude named Tony today who went off on them for talking current events instead of sports. He was a clear supporter of the recent executive action on the immigration ban and was very escalated. They sliced and diced his argument in a matter of minutes. It's too bad that so many people say they should stick to sports and they are immediately deemed as liberals when they were just fostering a discussion about something on everyone's mind on a slow sports day.

[Big Hurtin]

Oh, and also this

 

BREAKING: President Trump dismisses Acting Immigration and Customs Enforcement Director Daniel Ragsdale

— BNO News (@BNONews) January 31, 2017

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8">

[Con te Giolito]

Except there has never been an act of domestic terrorism in the US committed by refugees from any of those countries. Zero. Ever. Nada.

Here's where you're kind of wrong/kind of right. Somali refugees in Minneapolis/St Paul have had some serious difficulties assimilating and there was an attack by a Somali on a mall that was "claimed" by ISIS. About thirty Somalis from Minnesota, permanent residents the lot, left the country to join ISIS or similar organizations back in Somalia, and that's just who the intelligence community knows about or is willing admit. Then there have been the serious gang problems and sexual assaults, very similar to the issues the European countries are having assimilating their immigrants.

 

How much of this has to do with willful refusal to assimilate by the Somalis or ghettoizing by native Minnesotans is impossible to pin down exactly, but its probably a little bit of both at least. To paint all refugees as angels is a delusional. To paint them all as terrorists is ignorant. But to deny that there is something about Islam that seems to prevent it from fully assimilating its people in western countries is just a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts. All of Western Europe is a case study in this regard, and its one I want our leaders to learn and understand before they act on the refugee issue. We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

Why not Saudia Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, UAE, Libya? We can trace lots of terrorism and its principal funding to those places. Not to mention Qatar and Bahrain.

Libya is on the list already. And you can trace "lots of terrorism and its principal funding" to Lebanon? Uhhh...that'd be news to me.

 

Hezbollah isnt a terror group, really. I mean Israel says they are and our government has a tradition of agreeing with them on those types of things, but that's a quasi-government representing Shia Muslims in that region. Lebanon is an extremely complicated country.

 

As far as the European crisis goes, Trump might be forcing them to unite and rally together...if Merkel loses in Germany and le Pen's party wins in France, sure, but that's still far from the likeliest outcome barring another major terrorist attack in the heart of Europe.

You'd think the hubris would've been gone after Brexit and the November elections...guess not.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[Balta1701]

Cybersecurity EO expected to be signed tomorrow

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/...raft-of-the.pdf

 

 

Sigh, I remember being taught in school about the 3 branches of government.

I realize that this is discussing policies implemented by the worst people on Earth, but on paper I'm not sure what the obvious issue is with this one. Looks like Bannon is part of the report I guess so that's annoying, what else am I missing?

[Big Hurtin]

I realize that this is discussing policies implemented by the worst people on Earth, but on paper I'm not sure what the obvious issue is with this one. Looks like Bannon is part of the report I guess so that's annoying, what else am I missing?

 

The comment after the link was more in general to what's been going on, not specifically this executive order.

 

[Soxbadger]

Here's where you're kind of wrong/kind of right. Somali refugees in Minneapolis/St Paul have had some serious difficulties assimilating and there was an attack by a Somali on a mall that was "claimed" by ISIS. About thirty Somalis from Minnesota, permanent residents the lot, left the country to join ISIS or similar organizations back in Somalia, and that's just who the intelligence community knows about or is willing admit. Then there have been the serious gang problems and sexual assaults, very similar to the issues the European countries are having assimilating their immigrants.

 

How much of this has to do with willful refusal to assimilate by the Somalis or ghettoizing by native Minnesotans is impossible to pin down exactly, but its probably a little bit of both at least. To paint all refugees as angels is a delusional. To paint them all as terrorists is ignorant. But to deny that there is something about Islam that seems to prevent it from fully assimilating its people in western countries is just a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts. All of Western Europe is a case study in this regard, and its one I want our leaders to learn and understand before they act on the refugee issue. We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

 

Libya is on the list already. And you can trace "lots of terrorism and its principal funding" to Lebanon? Uhhh...that'd be news to me.

 

Hezbollah isnt a terror group, really. I mean Israel says they are and our government has a tradition of agreeing with them on those types of things, but that's a quasi-government representing Shia Muslims in that region. Lebanon is an extremely complicated country.

 

 

You'd think the hubris would've been gone after Brexit and the November elections...guess not.

 

We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

 

Unless you are a native american or a descendant of the Mayflower, this is exactly what they said about your family. Our country was founded by those fleeing persecution. We are a country of "refugees", people that other countries discarded. And this line of reasoning is exactly what people were saying prior to WWII when it came to the Jews. The United States actually lowered the the quotas for Jews prior to WWII, meaning that less Jews were allowed to immigrate here.

 

You have a lot of far reaching conclusions that arent necessarily supported by facts. The idea that Muslim's arent fully assimilating, compared to what? Why should they even need to assimilate? This is a country of freedom, not a country of assimilation. If they want to have their own beliefs, their own community, how does that impact me? How does that make me less safe?

 

There are hundreds, if not thousands of ways that you could legitimately make the United States safer than banning refugees.

 

This isnt a blatant disregard of the facts, its a rejection of your entire premises, that somehow denying refugees will make the US safer.

 

Since when the Refugee Act of 1980 was passed not 1 refugee has been implicated in a terror attack. Before 1980 only 3 successful attacks had ever been carried out, all by Cubans, and 3 people died.

 

I am not afraid, I have no reason to be. Facts do not support that refugees pose a legitimate security risk to the regular American.

 

Hezbollah isnt a terror group

 

April 18, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon

A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.

 

October 23, 1983

Beirut, Lebanon

A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.

 

There are bunch of others, but you would be hard pressed to find any other terrorist organization who has killed as many Americans.

 

Either way, America isnt as great of a place without refugees and immigrants, that is a fact that is undeniable.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

Here's where you're kind of wrong/kind of right. Somali refugees in Minneapolis/St Paul have had some serious difficulties assimilating and there was an attack by a Somali on a mall that was "claimed" by ISIS. About thirty Somalis from Minnesota, permanent residents the lot, left the country to join ISIS or similar organizations back in Somalia, and that's just who the intelligence community knows about or is willing admit. Then there have been the serious gang problems and sexual assaults, very similar to the issues the European countries are having assimilating their immigrants.

 

How much of this has to do with willful refusal to assimilate by the Somalis or ghettoizing by native Minnesotans is impossible to pin down exactly, but its probably a little bit of both at least. To paint all refugees as angels is a delusional. To paint them all as terrorists is ignorant. But to deny that there is something about Islam that seems to prevent it from fully assimilating its people in western countries is just a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts. All of Western Europe is a case study in this regard, and its one I want our leaders to learn and understand before they act on the refugee issue. We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

So for reference, while any time you take a group of 20,000+ people you're likely to have a handful of crimes, the officials in those areas have noted that their crime rates are not unusual compared to other areas of their state and they have declined like most major urban areas since the Somali immigration began in the 1990s and really picked up around 2000, including in the spots where they have the largest populations (something like 10% of one city). IF you want, those numbers are available in the FBI reports.

[G&T]

I realize that this is discussing policies implemented by the worst people on Earth, but on paper I'm not sure what the obvious issue is with this one. Looks like Bannon is part of the report I guess so that's annoying, what else am I missing?

 

Supposedly it's the defense dept overseeing dept of education. Not sure there's much to it.

[Reddy]

I think he'll do just enough to get re-elected, thanks to his base that don't care about the facts and instead feed on the garbage he and Spicer spew on a daily basis. There's a lot of time to see what happens, but if the democrats don't do well in the 2018 midterms, it's going to be difficult to get him out of office in 2020. Plus, all presidents since Clinton have had two terms.

 

Also, what is Trump going to do for moderate college educated white guys like me?

 

What the hell do you need him to do for you?? Hoping that was supposed to be green...

[Soxbadger]

What the hell do you need him to do for you?? Hoping that was supposed to be green...

 

How does attacking his point of view further your cause?

 

I think his question is perfectly reasonable, how do moderates fit into Trump's universe?

 

And that is really a group who can make a difference.

[Con te Giolito]

We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

 

Unless you are a native american or a descendant of the Mayflower, this is exactly what they said about your family. Our country was founded by those fleeing persecution. We are a country of "refugees", people that other countries discarded. And this line of reasoning is exactly what people were saying prior to WWII when it came to the Jews. The United States actually lowered the the quotas for Jews prior to WWII, meaning that less Jews were allowed to immigrate here.

 

Look, you're not going to like this and I am begging to please not get emotional over it. But the whole umbrella of thoughtless quips like "your family were immigrants too!" or "immigration is what this country is built on" are propaganda. Really, the immigration that occurred when the USA was industrializing (or was in dire need of young Irish boys to die in the Civil War) is completely different than today. US Steel doesn't need 60,000 people working at its mill anymore. If you have ever argued against the rust belt voters for being delusional for thinking that the jobs of thirty years ago can be brought back today then you're committing the same sin when you appeal to this junk-tier 140-characters-or-less mindlessness about what America was built on.

 

Times have changed. The population needs of the United States have changed. Unlike Europe the USA has a steadily growing population without bringing in people from overseas. Unemployment oscillates between slightly high and average levels, so its not like there is a labor shortage. Also, romanticizing refugees as the "innovators of tomorrow" is an unfair expectation to put on their shoulders and, to be frank, a little ignorant. My uncle sponsors of a Kurdish Syrian family. I've met them, they are good people. But none of them, including the children, speak even broken English (the father does speak bad French) and they are completely bereft of skills. Nothing against them as people, but we are hardly talking about keys the economic future of the United States here.

 

You have a lot of far reaching conclusions that arent necessarily supported by facts. The idea that Muslim's arent fully assimilating, compared to what? Why should they even need to assimilate? This is a country of freedom, not a country of assimilation. If they want to have their own beliefs, their own community, how does that impact me? How does that make me less safe?

So you're in favor of multiculturalism? Interesting. That's hardly the way that America has handled immigrants traditionally. Assimilation has always been the way the United States has handled things (the melting pot!), we dont have laws like Canada has forbidding English street signs. I'll keep your endorsement of multiculturalism in mind later, I have a feeling it'll become very relevant soon.

 

There are hundreds, if not thousands of ways that you could legitimately make the United States safer than banning refugees.

 

This isnt a blatant disregard of the facts, its a rejection of your entire premises, that somehow denying refugees will make the US safer.

 

Since when the Refugee Act of 1980 was passed not 1 refugee has been implicated in a terror attack. Before 1980 only 3 successful attacks had ever been carried out, all by Cubans, and 3 people died.

 

I am not afraid, I have no reason to be. Facts do not support that refugees pose a legitimate security risk to the regular American.

I think we should take the decision to let refugees in extremely seriously and not just fling our doors open to the world because its what we did 100 years ago. Europe has real problems with their refugee populations not assimilating (I know this doesn't bother you, but it should) and its now causing some very real problems. I'm not just talking about the terror attacks, which really aren't that alarming anywhere except for France. I can get really specific and you'll probably get mad if I do, but suffice to say letting all these refugees into Europe has not gone particularly well for native Europeans or their governments.

 

While you are carried away by the romantic idea of embracing all the worlds people in a post-borders utopia try to remember that the social policies of today and missteps in making them sow the seeds of tomorrow's social crisesl. Refusing to even acknowledge that Europe is having problems or that a lack of assimilation from immigrant groups is a very, very troubling sign is the type of ignorance that gets you into trouble down the road.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[caulfield12]

Here's where you're kind of wrong/kind of right. Somali refugees in Minneapolis/St Paul have had some serious difficulties assimilating and there was an attack by a Somali on a mall that was "claimed" by ISIS. About thirty Somalis from Minnesota, permanent residents the lot, left the country to join ISIS or similar organizations back in Somalia, and that's just who the intelligence community knows about or is willing admit. Then there have been the serious gang problems and sexual assaults, very similar to the issues the European countries are having assimilating their immigrants.

 

How much of this has to do with willful refusal to assimilate by the Somalis or ghettoizing by native Minnesotans is impossible to pin down exactly, but its probably a little bit of both at least. To paint all refugees as angels is a delusional. To paint them all as terrorists is ignorant. But to deny that there is something about Islam that seems to prevent it from fully assimilating its people in western countries is just a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts. All of Western Europe is a case study in this regard, and its one I want our leaders to learn and understand before they act on the refugee issue. We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

 

Libya is on the list already. And you can trace "lots of terrorism and its principal funding" to Lebanon? Uhhh...that'd be news to me.

 

Hezbollah isnt a terror group, really. I mean Israel says they are and our government has a tradition of agreeing with them on those types of things, but that's a quasi-government representing Shia Muslims in that region. Lebanon is an extremely complicated country.

 

 

You'd think the hubris would've been gone after Brexit and the November elections...guess not.

 

 

Kind of a general response to everything I missed...

 

http://www.inc.com/jeremy-quittner/silicon...ion-reform.html

 

http://www.economist.com/news/business/215...ca-jobs-machine

 

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/defa...0413_WBC422.png

 

 

American entrepreneurialism in California/Silicon Valley would be seriously hurting without one million workers from China and India alone, not to mention MA/PHD programs in the STEM subjects.

 

 

Ali Abdi

I am an Iranian PhD student at Yale Uni. Now overseas to do research. Trump's EO might prevent me from returning to the US!

#MuslimBan

 

You stay in Iran and help the cave people over there. We will be OK without you.

 

 

Ali Abdi, a 30-year-old student from Iran, has been studying for his PhD in anthropology at Yale University, and had left the U.S. last week for the United Arab Emirates on his way to a research trip in Afghanistan.

 

Now Abdi, who has been living in the U.S. for the last four years, is unsure what to do. He cannot return to Iran, where he faces potential imprisonment for his political activism. His visa for the UAE won’t allow him to stay there for long, nor does he have permission for an extended stay in Afghanistan.

 

Most seriously, under Trump’s new order, he can no longer return to the U.S. to finish his studies.

 

Abdi is trying to be philosophical. “I’m not worried about anything... From an anthropological perspective I can write a lot,” he said in a telephone interview. “What has happened is very illuminating. The main problem is the lives of thousands of others who are torn apart by what happened.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/opinion/...region&_r=0

 

Make China Great Again

 

 

Copy of State Department Dissent Channel Draft (5 pages)

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/...issent-Memo.pdf

Edited January 31, 2017 by caulfield12

[brett05]

I would suggest that is making things worse, not better, in terms of removing gerrymandering. It's by nature a partisan effort. Not to say it's evil or anything, it's part of the current game. Just that it does nothing to get us to a better place overall.

I agree.

 

I think you just have to do basic splitting. Something like squares and rectangles, none of this free form.

[G&T]

Good read in Kushner: Vanity Fair

 

Trump is using Kushner's observance of sabbath against him by making EOs when Kushner can't work.

[southsider2k5]

Here's where you're kind of wrong/kind of right. Somali refugees in Minneapolis/St Paul have had some serious difficulties assimilating and there was an attack by a Somali on a mall that was "claimed" by ISIS. About thirty Somalis from Minnesota, permanent residents the lot, left the country to join ISIS or similar organizations back in Somalia, and that's just who the intelligence community knows about or is willing admit. Then there have been the serious gang problems and sexual assaults, very similar to the issues the European countries are having assimilating their immigrants.

 

How much of this has to do with willful refusal to assimilate by the Somalis or ghettoizing by native Minnesotans is impossible to pin down exactly, but its probably a little bit of both at least. To paint all refugees as angels is a delusional. To paint them all as terrorists is ignorant. But to deny that there is something about Islam that seems to prevent it from fully assimilating its people in western countries is just a blatant refusal to acknowledge facts. All of Western Europe is a case study in this regard, and its one I want our leaders to learn and understand before they act on the refugee issue. We have enough social unrest as it is, inviting more in isn't good for the people already here.

 

Libya is on the list already. And you can trace "lots of terrorism and its principal funding" to Lebanon? Uhhh...that'd be news to me.

 

Hezbollah isnt a terror group, really. I mean Israel says they are and our government has a tradition of agreeing with them on those types of things, but that's a quasi-government representing Shia Muslims in that region. Lebanon is an extremely complicated country.

 

 

You'd think the hubris would've been gone after Brexit and the November elections...guess not.

 

This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.

 

Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

 

With the banning of Muslims of certain countries coming to the United States, nothing has really changed. These elements have always held power in the United States, and they have always hid under the veil of trying to save us from the latest group we should be scared of. At times, they got enough power to make lives miserable for their targets. We banned the Chinese from immigrating at times. We rounded up the Japanese and put them into interment camps. We tried to send the Africans back to Africa. Despite all of this, these groups have still turned into Americans over time.

 

I am here today to tell you that using history as my guide, Muslims won't be any different. Give America a couple of generations with these immigrants, and while you might have a few bad apples, they will be fat and lazy Americans in two generations. To me that is the ultimate victory. Our culture and society is so incredible that it wins out, and it wins out voluntarily. If we ever get to the point where this history stops, THAT is when we quit being great. You want proof? My hometown is FULL of Syrian refugees and immigrants that haven't blown up any buildings. They haven't used a single suicide vest. Guess what, they have been coming here for over a century just for the opportunity to work.

 

So while some want to live in fear of the latest boogeyman group, history tells me that fear is wasted. Quit being scared of immigrants. Don't live your life in fear. The ultimate in living scared is trying to hide from other cultures. You want to make American great? Learn from your history instead of being scared and wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Look, you're not going to like this and I am begging to please not get emotional over it. But the whole umbrella of thoughtless quips like "your family were immigrants too!" or "immigration is what this country is built on" are propaganda. Really, the immigration that occurred when the USA was industrializing (or was in dire need of young Irish boys to die in the Civil War) is completely different than today. US Steel doesn't need 60,000 people working at its mill anymore. If you have ever argued against the rust belt voters for being delusional for thinking that the jobs of thirty years ago can be brought back today then you're committing the same sin when you appeal to this junk-tier 140-characters-or-less mindlessness about what America was built on.

 

Times have changed. The population needs of the United States have changed. Unlike Europe the USA has a steadily growing population without bringing in people from overseas. Unemployment oscillates between slightly high and average levels, so its not like there is a labor shortage. Also, romanticizing refugees as the "innovators of tomorrow" is an unfair expectation to put on their shoulders and, to be frank, a little ignorant. My uncle sponsors of a Kurdish Syrian family. I've met them, they are good people. But none of them, including the children, speak even broken English (the father does speak bad French) and they are completely bereft of skills. Nothing against them as people, but we are hardly talking about keys the economic future of the United States here.

 

 

So you're in favor of multiculturalism? Interesting. That's hardly the way that America has handled immigrants traditionally. Assimilation has always been the way the United States has handled things (the melting pot!), we dont have laws like Canada has forbidding English street signs. I'll keep your endorsement of multiculturalism in mind later, I have a feeling it'll become very relevant soon.

 

 

I think we should take the decision to let refugees in extremely seriously and not just fling our doors open to the world because its what we did 100 years ago. Europe has real problems with their refugee populations not assimilating (I know this doesn't bother you, but it should) and its now causing some very real problems. I'm not just talking about the terror attacks, which really aren't that alarming anywhere except for France. I can get really specific and you'll probably get mad if I do, but suffice to say letting all these refugees into Europe has not gone particularly well for native Europeans or their governments.

 

While you are carried away by the romantic idea of embracing all the worlds people in a post-borders utopia try to remember that the social policies of today and missteps in making them sow the seeds of tomorrow's social crisesl. Refusing to even acknowledge that Europe is having problems or that a lack of assimilation from immigrant groups is a very, very troubling sign is the type of ignorance that gets you into trouble down the road.

 

Absolutely it is. The immigrant of today tends to be better off and better educated than they were in the 19th century, and has an easier time finding employment because in a decent amount of cases they have a high paying job lined up. You are right, these aren't steel workers anymore. They are things like doctors and engineers to a much larger degree.

[caulfield12]

This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.

 

Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

 

With the banning of Muslims of certain countries coming to the United States, nothing has really changed. These elements have always held power in the United States, and they have always hid under the veil of trying to save us from the latest group we should be scared of. At times, they got enough power to make lives miserable for their targets. We banned the Chinese from immigrating at times. We rounded up the Japanese and put them into interment camps. We tried to send the Africans back to Africa. Despite all of this, these groups have still turned into Americans over time.

 

I am here today to tell you that using history as my guide, Muslims won't be any different. Give America a couple of generations with these immigrants, and while you might have a few bad apples, they will be fat and lazy Americans in two generations. To me that is the ultimate victory. Our culture and society is so incredible that it wins out, and it wins out voluntarily. If we ever get to the point where this history stops, THAT is when we quit being great. You want proof? My hometown is FULL of Syrian refugees and immigrants that haven't blown up any buildings. They haven't used a single suicide vest. Guess what, they have been coming here for over a century just for the opportunity to work.

 

So while some want to live in fear of the latest boogeyman group, history tells me that fear is wasted. Quit being scared of immigrants. Don't live your life in fear. The ultimate in living scared is trying to hide from other cultures. You want to make American great? Learn from your history instead of being scared and wrong.

 

 

Very well said.

 

One of the few failures has been the Native American cultures, but the highest poverty rates have always shadowed those who remained on the reservations and away from the cities/mainstream "melting pot" culture (eg., Boone County, SD, Oglala Sioux). Too complicated to get into here, largely because it's not analogous to what's going on today.

 

 

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/trum...ss-order-234392

Republican House staffers worked on immigration plan in total secrecy

 

 

Trump's trade adviser is now accusing Germany of manipulating their currency lower (devaluing) to gain an unfair trade advantage. Seems Trump's goal is to wipe out Merkel, who was the only world leader to really confront him strongly about the immigration ban and lecture him about violating the Geneva Convention agreement regarding treatment of refugees.

Edited January 31, 2017 by caulfield12

[The Beast]

How does attacking his point of view further your cause?

 

I think his question is perfectly reasonable, how do moderates fit into Trump's universe?

 

And that is really a group who can make a difference.

He said he was going to be a president for all Americans - I haven't seen how he's been one for me or people that I know yet. My question was reasonable - right now, they don't fit into his universe.

 

Here's the Goff and Bernstein clip I talked about. Start listening at the 1:55 mark, where they get to talking about Steve Kerr's comments and an escalated caller comes in. What's important is that we can have discussions of civility, respect and tolerance - something I haven't seen done in every day life recently.

[Kyyle23]

He said he was going to be a president for all Americans - I haven't seen how he's been one for me or people that I know yet. My question was reasonable - right now, they don't fit into his universe.

 

Here's the Goff and Bernstein clip I talked about. Start listening at the 1:55 mark, where they get to talking about Steve Kerr's comments and an escalated caller comes in. What's important is that we can have discussions of civility, respect and tolerance - something I haven't seen done in every day life recently.

 

I heard that call live, that guy was all over the place and Goff was right, he was expecting a shouting match and ended up getting nothing of the sort and it messed him up

[StrangeSox]

I agree.

 

I think you just have to do basic splitting. Something like squares and rectangles, none of this free form.

 

Districts need to have roughly the same number of people, so simple shapes don't work. There are other requirements as well to ensure minority representation. Anywhere with major cities pretty much ensures you'll have at least some funky boundaries.

 

However, you can do what Iowa does, which is to have an independent nonpartisan committee that sets the boundaries. That at least has the boundaries drawn in ways to maximize fair and equal representation with limits on partisan gaming.

[StrangeSox]

This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.

 

Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

 

With the banning of Muslims of certain countries coming to the United States, nothing has really changed. These elements have always held power in the United States, and they have always hid under the veil of trying to save us from the latest group we should be scared of. At times, they got enough power to make lives miserable for their targets. We banned the Chinese from immigrating at times. We rounded up the Japanese and put them into interment camps. We tried to send the Africans back to Africa. Despite all of this, these groups have still turned into Americans over time.

 

I am here today to tell you that using history as my guide, Muslims won't be any different. Give America a couple of generations with these immigrants, and while you might have a few bad apples, they will be fat and lazy Americans in two generations. To me that is the ultimate victory. Our culture and society is so incredible that it wins out, and it wins out voluntarily. If we ever get to the point where this history stops, THAT is when we quit being great. You want proof? My hometown is FULL of Syrian refugees and immigrants that haven't blown up any buildings. They haven't used a single suicide vest. Guess what, they have been coming here for over a century just for the opportunity to work.

 

So while some want to live in fear of the latest boogeyman group, history tells me that fear is wasted. Quit being scared of immigrants. Don't live your life in fear. The ultimate in living scared is trying to hide from other cultures. You want to make American great? Learn from your history instead of being scared and wrong.

 

A good post.

[caulfield12]

The Trump administration just fired the first shot in the US-European currency, and thus trade, wars when Trump's top trade advisor Peter Navarro accused Germany of using a “grossly undervalued” euro to "exploit the US and its EU partners", the FT reported noting the comments are"likely to trigger alarm in Europe’s largest economy." News of the statement sent the EURUSD surging and the dollar tumbling to fresh 2 month lows.

 

 

 

Navarro, the head of Mr Trump’s new National Trade Council, told the Financial Times the euro was like an “implicit Deutsche Mark” whose low valuation gave Germany an advantage over its main partners. While not necessarily novel - Germany has often been accused of being the biggest winner from a weak euro at the expense of peripherla Europe - his views suggest the new administration is focusing on currency as part of its hard-charging approach on trade ties, according to the FT. Furthermore, virtually assuring a deterioration in US-German relations, and in a departure from past US policy, Navarro also called Germany one of the main hurdles to a US trade deal with the EU and declared talks with the bloc over a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership dead.

Edited January 31, 2017 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.

 

Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

 

With the banning of Muslims of certain countries coming to the United States, nothing has really changed. These elements have always held power in the United States, and they have always hid under the veil of trying to save us from the latest group we should be scared of. At times, they got enough power to make lives miserable for their targets. We banned the Chinese from immigrating at times. We rounded up the Japanese and put them into interment camps. We tried to send the Africans back to Africa. Despite all of this, these groups have still turned into Americans over time.

 

I am here today to tell you that using history as my guide, Muslims won't be any different. Give America a couple of generations with these immigrants, and while you might have a few bad apples, they will be fat and lazy Americans in two generations. To me that is the ultimate victory. Our culture and society is so incredible that it wins out, and it wins out voluntarily. If we ever get to the point where this history stops, THAT is when we quit being great. You want proof? My hometown is FULL of Syrian refugees and immigrants that haven't blown up any buildings. They haven't used a single suicide vest. Guess what, they have been coming here for over a century just for the opportunity to work.

 

So while some want to live in fear of the latest boogeyman group, history tells me that fear is wasted. Quit being scared of immigrants. Don't live your life in fear. The ultimate in living scared is trying to hide from other cultures. You want to make American great? Learn from your history instead of being scared and wrong.

 

This is a really good post.