President Donald Trump: The Thread

[RockRaines]

I guess I'll be the one to say it, I don't disagree with us temporarily stopping and reassessing our vetting process. What I disagree with is how we went about it and how unsmooth and undiplomatic the entire process was. That said, the statement made by Rudy Guilani regarding his order, was terrifying.

I mean, it takes 1.5 to 2 years to vet these guys, how much longer would you like it to take and how much more detailed? Its already hilariously hard for them to get here.

[RockRaines]

My family escaped Germany around WW1 to come to the US. At the same time they were fighting a war with each other. They were forced to buy War Bonds so they wouldnt be imprisoned for being "sympathizers." Their stories are horrifying and I can only imagine how much worse it has gotten over the years. I sympathize with anyone who wants to be an American and support this country.

[caulfield12]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-immig...-212742523.html

 

US international student market is $35 billion and climbing. That's enough to build three walls that's now being jeopardized, not to mention the loss of all that intellectual talent that will now likely end up supporting the future progress of countries/regions competing or even potentially targeting the U.S. It will also mean the bankruptcy of a number of schools, which will inevitably lead back to more for-profit/online universities that prey upon the poor and ex-veterans.

 

 

Among the countries listed on the temporary ban, Iranian students, in particular, make up a bulk of foreign students studying in the US. Students from Iran increased by 8.2% between 2015 and 2016 — hitting 12,269 students, the highest US enrollment by Iranians in 29 years, according to IIE.

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ban...m=.406d0cacafe2

 

 

 

In interviews with reporters since Trump’s election, Bannon has eschewed the traditional it’s-all-about-the-boss humility of presidential staffers.

 

“Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That’s power,” he told the Hollywood Reporter in November, embracing the comparisons of him to those figures.

 

In the same interview, Bannon compared himself to a powerful aide to England’s Henry VIII — an aide who helped engineer a world-shaking move of his era, the split of the Church of England from the Catholic Church.

 

"I am Thomas Cromwell in the court of the Tudors,” Bannon told the Hollywood Reporter.

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

Jerry Falwell jr. To head task force on federal higher education policy.

 

Falwell runs the conservative fundamentalist creationist liberty university, and has talked about allowing concealed carry on colleges so that he can "end those Muslims."

 

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Jerry-Fal...He-Will/239062/

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Funny article about one of Trump's friends, who was allegedly offered a position in HUD and for his company to help build the wall:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...&yptr=yahoo

 

“The wall is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever seen or heard in my life,” said Perez, who was raised in Colombia by Cuban parents. “A wall for what? You think a wall is going to stop people that are hungry? Good employment in Mexico, economic growth in Mexico, equality is going to stop people from coming over the border.”

 

“No self-respecting country will say, ‘Yes, build the wall not to allow the free flow of people between two countries -- and we’re going to pay for it,” he said. “Any Mexican that would say that wouldn’t get elected dog catcher.”

 

The article also states he joked with Trump about what side of the wall hed end up on.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Battling Gorsuch is probably a no-go.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/mcuban/status/826600139158609921

Mark Cuban wants the Dems to negotiate with Trump for quick confirmation where he would then give up the immigration ban, get rid of a Cabinet choice or border wall, etc.

 

Molly Knight

the idea of a trade is interesting. Tho how do you measure the impact of short term racist AG vs. long-term anti-woman SCOTUS nom?

Edited February 1, 2017 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Remember this when they say a few people were inconvenienced. The ban killed this person per the statements of her son. She had a green card and was pulled out of line and sent back.

A local business owner flies to Iraq to bring his mother back home to the US for medical treatment. But under President Trump's ban on immigration and travel from seven predominately Muslim nations, he was forced to leave his family behind.

 

His mother died just one day after being told she couldn't return to the United States.

 

Mike Hager fled Iraq with his family during the Gulf War, returned during the Iraq war and worked alongside United States Marines and Army forces. He now owns a business in Metro Detroit and said his mom would still be alive today if President Donald Trump had not instituted his travel ban on Muslim countries.

[Con te Giolito]

This is where people have zero idea of history. Your mention of the "refusal to assimilate" couldn't be more normal in terms of history. Heck go all of the way back to colonial times. Religious groups struck out on their own. Ever heard of the Pligrims? How about the Quakers? The Amish? The Mormons too. Ethnic groups were no different. Indians, Africans, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Jews, Germans, over time were some of the more prominent targets.

 

Typically these groups came here in search of something new, and met with resistance because they didn't speak English and their customs offended the people who were already assimilated. The first generations usually didn't try to blend. They stayed in their ethnic neighborhoods, spoke the old language, kept the old customs, and never really became "American's" Many even turned to crime to make their way as traditional ways were closed to these groups. Whether it was the "Irish Need Not Apply" or the redlining of entire cities to keep the undesirables in their own places such as Chinatown and Little Italy, it has been done over our whole history.

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

Again, this is propaganda. Saying I have "zero idea of history" then coming at me with high school curriculum cliches is kind of insulting. Not all of this is even true, and even the parts that are are often dramatized to the point of fantasy to become the myth and lore that fills the foundation of American Exceptionalism. Immigration is told to n a starry eyed tone as America's great stake to moral relevance. To that point I kind of agree? I dont know, its a bit tough when you start getting into why the USA has behaved the way it has at certain points in history. Why do you think the USA was so cozy with Hitler in the 1930's? Could it have had something to do with the absolutely massive German population wielding its affection for the motherland as political club to force the US into isolationist policy?

 

Its time we start separating immigrants from refugees. Immigrants go through a lengthy, intentionally arduous process and for many countries have to satisfy a points system that basically requires they be at minimum educated or skilled in an in-demand field. As an immigrant the USA is amongst the easiest Western countries to get into, easier than the golden multiculti city on the hill Canada or population hemorrhaging European states.

 

Refugees on the other hand, well you dont really know what you're getting.

 

And you're saying assimilation has never been forced? Do you know what used to fill the area that is now UIC? Or how the military was called into to Quincy IL to deliver a "convert, leave or die" ultimatum to the Mormons? I can pull up hundreds of examples in just this great state of Illinois of assimilation being forced.

 

And even if we accept the romantic retelling of American immigration history, just because a dynamic has existed in the past does not mean it will continue in the future. Things have changed from many angles in the world of immigration. The needs receiving countries, the policies of receiving countries, the nature of what a refugee actually is...I cannot stress enough how different the world is now than it was then. Ellis Island is a museum now.

 

 

But every, single, time an amazing thing happened. The second generation started to leave that behind. They spoke English outside of the house, and spoke the native tongue in it. They picked up American customs, and turned to education as their way out of the neighborhoods. By the third generations it might only be a last name that would sell out an ethnic background. By the 4th and 5th generations, the ethnic identities faded to the point they were really of the old world anymore, they were Americans first, and something else later. The incredible part of that is that it was all voluntary. It wasn't like Soviet Russia where assimilation was forced, or Nazi Germany where the undesirables were just disposed of. People became Americans because they wanted to be Americans. The greatness of America has always been that people, no matter where they came from, always turned into Americans in a matter of a couple of generations. Pretty much unless we put the boot of discrimination on their necks, the transition has been seamless.

This may or may not be happening with Muslims. Its interesting to note that many of the attackers in the USA and Europe claimed by ISIS are actually native westerners. The sons of immigrants and refugees are the ones committing the attacks, not the refugees and immigrants themselves. Also intermarriage rates and other signs of assimilation dont seem to improve much generation to generation with Muslims. This is different than other recent immigrant groups, particularly hispanics.

 

My position is wait about five-ish years to accept more refugees and then reevaluate. Observe what is happening in Europe and if we decide to reopen the doors learn from their mistakes, or realize that a torrent of refugees is not what's right for the USA and leave only the traditional immigration path open. That is the most sensible option and the one that guarantees best that we handle it correctly. Rushing in trying to save the world like a bunch of big, bad heroes is often the preamble to a classic American tale of "oh god, what have we gotten ourselves into".

Edited February 1, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[Con te Giolito]

I guess I'll be the one to say it, I don't disagree with us temporarily stopping and reassessing our vetting process. What I disagree with is how we went about it and how unsmooth and undiplomatic the entire process was. That said, the statement made by Rudy Guilani regarding his order, was terrifying.

Right, especially with a new administration that is working off an electoral mandate to stop and reassess our vetting process.

 

Anyone who thought Trump would be a 3rd term for Obama and is absolutely incensed and outraged that it isn't, like all those people at Terminal 5 (fyi I have been to Terminal 5 like 10 times since Sunday and haven't seen anything more than the barricades...so who knows), I gotta ask what you were expecting?

[RockRaines]

[The Beast]

Right, especially with a new administration that is working off an electoral mandate to stop and reassess our vetting process.

 

Anyone who thought Trump would be a 3rd term for Obama and is absolutely incensed and outraged that it isn't, like all those people at Terminal 5 (fyi I have been to Terminal 5 like 10 times since Sunday and haven't seen anything more than the barricades...so who knows), I gotta ask what you were expecting?

With all due respect, who thought Trump would be a 3rd term for Obama? Or do you mean we wouldn't expect someone who would rattle the cages too much?

[Reddy]

With all due respect, who thought Trump would be a 3rd term for Obama? Or do you mean we wouldn't expect someone who would rattle the cages too much?

Yeah uh... no one thought that.

[Con te Giolito]

With all due respect, who thought Trump would be a 3rd term for Obama? Or do you mean we wouldn't expect someone who would rattle the cages too much?

Obviously the second point.

[BigSqwert]

Again, this is propaganda. Saying I have "zero idea of history" then coming at me with high school curriculum cliches is kind of insulting. Not all of this is even true, and even the parts that are are often dramatized to the point of fantasy to become the myth and lore that fills the foundation of American Exceptionalism. Immigration is told to n a starry eyed tone as America's great stake to moral relevance. To that point I kind of agree? I dont know, its a bit tough when you start getting into why the USA has behaved the way it has at certain points in history. Why do you think the USA was so cozy with Hitler in the 1930's? Could it have had something to do with the absolutely massive German population wielding its affection for the motherland as political club to force the US into isolationist policy?

 

Its time we start separating immigrants from refugees. Immigrants go through a lengthy, intentionally arduous process and for many countries have to satisfy a points system that basically requires they be at minimum educated or skilled in an in-demand field. As an immigrant the USA is amongst the easiest Western countries to get into, easier than the golden multiculti city on the hill Canada or population hemorrhaging European states.

 

Refugees on the other hand, well you dont really know what you're getting.

 

And you're saying assimilation has never been forced? Do you know what used to fill the area that is now UIC? Or how the military was called into to Quincy IL to deliver a "convert, leave or die" ultimatum to the Mormons? I can pull up hundreds of examples in just this great state of Illinois of assimilation being forced.

 

And even if we accept the romantic retelling of American immigration history, just because a dynamic has existed in the past does not mean it will continue in the future. Things have changed from many angles in the world of immigration. The needs receiving countries, the policies of receiving countries, the nature of what a refugee actually is...I cannot stress enough how different the world is now than it was then. Ellis Island is a museum now.

 

 

 

This may or may not be happening with Muslims. Its interesting to note that many of the attackers in the USA and Europe claimed by ISIS are actually native westerners. The sons of immigrants and refugees are the ones committing the attacks, not the refugees and immigrants themselves. Also intermarriage rates and other signs of assimilation dont seem to improve much generation to generation with Muslims. This is different than other recent immigrant groups, particularly hispanics.

 

My position is wait about five-ish years to accept more refugees and then reevaluate. Observe what is happening in Europe and if we decide to reopen the doors learn from their mistakes, or realize that a torrent of refugees is not what's right for the USA and leave only the traditional immigration path open. That is the most sensible option and the one that guarantees best that we handle it correctly. Rushing in trying to save the world like a bunch of big, bad heroes is often the preamble to a classic American tale of "oh god, what have we gotten ourselves into".

 

 

A white conservative, Trump supporter just murdered a bunch of Muslims in their house of worship.

[Con te Giolito]

A white conservative, Trump supporter just murdered a bunch of Muslims in their house of worship.

And...? Are you really just programmed to react to anything that even slightly challenges your worldview with "beep boop white male beep bopp"? And if you dont like white males why in god's name are you in Seattle, WA? It really does not get any white male-ier than Seattle.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[Balta1701]

And...? Are you really just programmed to react to anything that even slightly challenges your worldview with "beep boop white male beep bopp"? And if you dont like white males why in god's name are you in Seattle, WA? It really does not get any white male-ier than Seattle.

Because he's not cowering in fear of them because of their ethnicity or based on a stereotype. Doing so would be exactly where you logic would lead, yet you only are scared by certain groups.

[Brian]

What needs to change about the vetting process? It's a lengthy year and a half long process where no terrorists have gotten through. What am I missing?

[RockRaines]

Because he's not cowering in fear of them because of their ethnicity or based on a stereotype. Doing so would be exactly where you logic would lead, yet you only are scared by certain groups.

I'm more alarmed that Sqwert hates white males

[LittleHurt05]

Reassessing what? A process that is already more stringent than most any on Earth? One that has made sure not a single refugee has committed some terrorist act, ever? One that has made terrorism from foreigners in this country so rare that it is a small fraction of those committed by our own citizens?

 

It serves zero practical or functional purpose in the realm of security. It is unfounded fear of brown people that motivated this. Nothing real or logical.

 

Other than the two Somlian refugees who committed terrorist attacks in the past 5 months? They only had knives and a Honda Civic instead of guns and a lorry, so nobody died and nobody noticed.

 

But when you actually look at those cases, one kid had been here for two years, but he was recently radicalized over the internet. And the other guy had lived here for 20 years since age 2 and became a US citizen 9 years ago.

 

So a "better" vetting process would have done nothing to prevent those attacks, and in fact the #MuslimBan is more likely to piss people off and create more lone wolf attacks like these.

[StrangeSox]

What needs to change about the vetting process? It's a lengthy year and a half long process where no terrorists have gotten through. What am I missing?

 

Absolutely nothing. The idea that we "don't know what we get" with refugees is pure fiction.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Not sure if it has already been posted but this is a very well written (and scary) article. Everything that the article speaks to regarding Trump supporters is evident even here on this forum.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archiv...tocracy/513872/

[caulfield12]

And...? Are you really just programmed to react to anything that even slightly challenges your worldview with "beep boop white male beep bopp"? And if you dont like white males why in god's name are you in Seattle, WA? It really does not get any white male-ier than Seattle.

 

What changes would you suggest?

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/refugee-...3905/print.html

Note the source.

 

 

Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's coup in the making

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/opinions/ban...hiat/index.html

Edited February 1, 2017 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

Other than the two Somlian refugees who committed terrorist attacks in the past 5 months? They only had knives and a Honda Civic instead of guns and a lorry, so nobody died and nobody noticed.

 

But when you actually look at those cases, one kid had been here for two years, but he was recently radicalized over the internet. And the other guy had lived here for 20 years since age 2 and became a US citizen 9 years ago.

 

So a "better" vetting process would have done nothing to prevent those attacks, and in fact the #MuslimBan is more likely to piss people off and create more lone wolf attacks like these.

Sorry yes, I mean deadly attacks. But I think you and I agree on the overall point - this is a solution looking for a problem, and causing more problems along the way.

 

[caulfield12]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/31/politics/ste...tion/index.html

 

Stephen Miller might be even scarier...

 

Defending the policy Monday, Miller told CBS the move would "make sure that people entering our country truly love and support the United States of America."

 

If only they wore American Flag lapel pins that played a medley of Lee Greenwwood favorites.

 

 

[Big Hurtin]

Jerry Falwell jr. To head task force on federal higher education policy.

 

Falwell runs the conservative fundamentalist creationist liberty university, and has talked about allowing concealed carry on colleges so that he can "end those Muslims."

 

http://www.chronicle.com/article/Jerry-Fal...He-Will/239062/

Good. We need MORE of this to wake up the people that are still asleep.