President Donald Trump: The Thread

[BigSqwert]

And...? Are you really just programmed to react to anything that even slightly challenges your worldview with "beep boop white male beep bopp"? And if you dont like white males why in god's name are you in Seattle, WA? It really does not get any white male-ier than Seattle.

I'm just curious why you're not pushing for extreme, invasive actions that target white, conservative terrorists. You happen to only be concerned with POC.

[southsider2k5]

Again, this is propaganda. Saying I have "zero idea of history" then coming at me with high school curriculum cliches is kind of insulting. Not all of this is even true, and even the parts that are are often dramatized to the point of fantasy to become the myth and lore that fills the foundation of American Exceptionalism. Immigration is told to n a starry eyed tone as America's great stake to moral relevance. To that point I kind of agree? I dont know, its a bit tough when you start getting into why the USA has behaved the way it has at certain points in history. Why do you think the USA was so cozy with Hitler in the 1930's? Could it have had something to do with the absolutely massive German population wielding its affection for the motherland as political club to force the US into isolationist policy?

 

Its time we start separating immigrants from refugees. Immigrants go through a lengthy, intentionally arduous process and for many countries have to satisfy a points system that basically requires they be at minimum educated or skilled in an in-demand field. As an immigrant the USA is amongst the easiest Western countries to get into, easier than the golden multiculti city on the hill Canada or population hemorrhaging European states.

 

Refugees on the other hand, well you dont really know what you're getting.

 

And you're saying assimilation has never been forced? Do you know what used to fill the area that is now UIC? Or how the military was called into to Quincy IL to deliver a "convert, leave or die" ultimatum to the Mormons? I can pull up hundreds of examples in just this great state of Illinois of assimilation being forced.

 

And even if we accept the romantic retelling of American immigration history, just because a dynamic has existed in the past does not mean it will continue in the future. Things have changed from many angles in the world of immigration. The needs receiving countries, the policies of receiving countries, the nature of what a refugee actually is...I cannot stress enough how different the world is now than it was then. Ellis Island is a museum now.

 

 

 

This may or may not be happening with Muslims. Its interesting to note that many of the attackers in the USA and Europe claimed by ISIS are actually native westerners. The sons of immigrants and refugees are the ones committing the attacks, not the refugees and immigrants themselves. Also intermarriage rates and other signs of assimilation dont seem to improve much generation to generation with Muslims. This is different than other recent immigrant groups, particularly hispanics.

 

My position is wait about five-ish years to accept more refugees and then reevaluate. Observe what is happening in Europe and if we decide to reopen the doors learn from their mistakes, or realize that a torrent of refugees is not what's right for the USA and leave only the traditional immigration path open. That is the most sensible option and the one that guarantees best that we handle it correctly. Rushing in trying to save the world like a bunch of big, bad heroes is often the preamble to a classic American tale of "oh god, what have we gotten ourselves into".

 

Speaking of propaganda. I mean if you were to switch the names to things like Italians, Irish, and Negros, the Klan could have wrote most of this post 50/100/150 years ago. This is straight up 20th century "America First" literature.

 

You are right, things have changed. We know way more than ever about immigration and the people coming over here. We have more tools than ever to resettle and bring people over. We bring over a fraction of the people we did during the 19th and early 20th centuries before racist politics were able to again block specific groups from entering. Those groups are back in power again, and using all of the same rationale, even down to the name of the campaign behind it. We have made these mistakes in the past. The history is there. If you want to ignore that, history will judge you along with these groups, just like they do today.

[bmags]

*Spits out same arguments that people did 60 years ago, 100 years ago, 150 years ago*

"But NOW it's different!"

[caulfield12]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

How about 61 years of denying Chinese immigration?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exc...cph.3b48680.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

*Spits out same arguments that people did 60 years ago, 100 years ago, 150 years ago*

"But NOW it's different!"

 

Nazi sympathizers and antisemites from the 30's (which included lots of non-German Fascist Fans) are why we must ban Muslims today! Make America White Again!

 

[BigSqwert]

Read Donald Trump's inspiring remarks about MLK Jr. this AM at an event about Black History Month

[Soxbadger]

Again, this is propaganda. Saying I have "zero idea of history" then coming at me with high school curriculum cliches is kind of insulting. Not all of this is even true, and even the parts that are are often dramatized to the point of fantasy to become the myth and lore that fills the foundation of American Exceptionalism. Immigration is told to n a starry eyed tone as America's great stake to moral relevance. To that point I kind of agree? I dont know, its a bit tough when you start getting into why the USA has behaved the way it has at certain points in history. Why do you think the USA was so cozy with Hitler in the 1930's? Could it have had something to do with the absolutely massive German population wielding its affection for the motherland as political club to force the US into isolationist policy?

 

Its time we start separating immigrants from refugees. Immigrants go through a lengthy, intentionally arduous process and for many countries have to satisfy a points system that basically requires they be at minimum educated or skilled in an in-demand field. As an immigrant the USA is amongst the easiest Western countries to get into, easier than the golden multiculti city on the hill Canada or population hemorrhaging European states.

 

Refugees on the other hand, well you dont really know what you're getting.

 

And you're saying assimilation has never been forced? Do you know what used to fill the area that is now UIC? Or how the military was called into to Quincy IL to deliver a "convert, leave or die" ultimatum to the Mormons? I can pull up hundreds of examples in just this great state of Illinois of assimilation being forced.

 

And even if we accept the romantic retelling of American immigration history, just because a dynamic has existed in the past does not mean it will continue in the future. Things have changed from many angles in the world of immigration. The needs receiving countries, the policies of receiving countries, the nature of what a refugee actually is...I cannot stress enough how different the world is now than it was then. Ellis Island is a museum now.

 

 

 

This may or may not be happening with Muslims. Its interesting to note that many of the attackers in the USA and Europe claimed by ISIS are actually native westerners. The sons of immigrants and refugees are the ones committing the attacks, not the refugees and immigrants themselves. Also intermarriage rates and other signs of assimilation dont seem to improve much generation to generation with Muslims. This is different than other recent immigrant groups, particularly hispanics.

 

My position is wait about five-ish years to accept more refugees and then reevaluate. Observe what is happening in Europe and if we decide to reopen the doors learn from their mistakes, or realize that a torrent of refugees is not what's right for the USA and leave only the traditional immigration path open. That is the most sensible option and the one that guarantees best that we handle it correctly. Rushing in trying to save the world like a bunch of big, bad heroes is often the preamble to a classic American tale of "oh god, what have we gotten ourselves into".

 

Well if you want to suggest that you do have some sort of historical insight, you probably shouldnt start with "Why the US was cozy with Hitler?" and provide absolutely no citation or support for your claim. The US after WWI had an "isolationist" policy. It also completely glosses over people like Einstein, Oppenheimer. Even Eisenhower, Spaatz and Nimitz had German ancestry. Another man, Wendell Willkie, was the only Republican interventionist in the 1940 Republican primary, his father had been born in Germany.

 

But I digress.

 

Europe and the US are different. Europe is the place where many American families left due to persecution. And I dont even know what "rushing to save the world" means. Allowing immigrants, refugees, isnt rushing to save the world. But everyone is allowed to have their opinion, my personal opinion is I dont consider America and Europe comparable. And I can completely understand why refugees/immigrants have issues in Europe. Its the same reason why many of us are here, Europe doesnt always treat "outsiders" well. Which is why the US in many ways is the opposite of Europe.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Soxbadger

[Quin]

Well if you want to suggest that you do have some sort of historical insight, you probably shouldnt start with "Why the US was cozy with Hitler?" and provide absolutely no citation or support for your claim. The US after WWI had an "isolationist" policy. It also completely glosses over people like Einstein, Oppenheimer. Even Eisenhower, Spaatz and Nimitz had German ancestry. Another man, Wendell Willkie, was the only Republican interventionist in the 1940 Republican primary, his father had been born in Germany.

 

But I digress.

 

Europe and the US are different. Europe is the place where many American families left due to persecution in Europe. And I dont even know what "rushing to save the world" means. Allowing immigrants, refugees, isnt rushing to save the world. But everyone is allowed to have their opinion, my personal opinion is I dont consider America and Europe comparable. And I can completely understand why refugees/immigrants have issues in Europe. Its the same reason why many of us are here, Europe doesnt always treat "outsiders" well. Which is why the US in many ways is the opposite of Europe.

 

Completely random, but one of my friends is Oppenheimer's great-niece.

[Steve9347]

I'm more alarmed that Sqwert hates white males

sqwerting white males

 

so dirty

[Con te Giolito]

Europe and the US are different. Europe is the place where many American families left due to persecution in Europe. And I dont even know what "rushing to save the world" means. Allowing immigrants, refugees, isnt rushing to save the world. But everyone is allowed to have their opinion, my personal opinion is I dont consider America and Europe comparable. And I can completely understand why refugees/immigrants have issues in Europe. Its the same reason why many of us are here, Europe doesnt always treat "outsiders" well. Which is why the US in many ways is the opposite of Europe.

 

You earlier:

Why should they even need to assimilate? This is a country of freedom, not a country of assimilation. If they want to have their own beliefs, their own community, how does that impact me? How does that make me less safe?

 

My guess is you have absolutely zero understanding of why refugees have issues in Europe, or why Europe is having issues with refugees. Interesting you worded it the way you did, do you think its the responsibility of receiving countries to change for refugees or the other way around? Because you seem to be agreeing with anyone who vouches for assimilation, and your criticism of Europe here tends to side with that, but initially you definitely took a stand with multiculturalism. I suspect you are talking entirely out of your ass and have very little idea what it is you are even talking about.

 

Also, I'm done talking about immigration. I actually have very few problems with American immigration policy, the only real one being it seems content with leaving about 15 million people in this country basically stateless because partisan bickering has prevented opening up a path to citizenship for them. This strategy of bringing up straight out of the textbook history (and calling me a klansman, which is a pretty serious accusation to levy so glibly) is not one I'm going to abide anymore because (a) it's f***ing BORING and (b) it doesn't even apply.

 

The words refugee and immigrant have different meanings and this ignorant fusion of the two is obfuscating the real discussion over this particular executive order and the broader debate hanging over it. People who think they informed on the issue just because they can recite history taught to every single high school student in this country and then calling me a KKK member because I have the nerve to say it may be a bit more nuanced is not pleasant.

[Soxbadger]

You earlier:

 

 

My guess is you have absolutely zero understanding of why refugees have issues in Europe, or why Europe is having issues with refugees. Interesting you worded it the way you did, do you think its the responsibility of receiving countries to change for refugees or the other way around? Because you seem to be agreeing with anyone who vouches for assimilation, and your criticism of Europe here tends to side with that, but initially you definitely took a stand with multiculturalism. I suspect you are talking entirely out of your ass and have very little idea what it is you are even talking about.

 

Also, I'm done talking about immigration. I actually have very few problems with American immigration policy, the only real one being it seems content with leaving about 15 million people in this country basically stateless because partisan bickering has prevented opening up a path to citizenship for them. This strategy of bringing up straight out of the textbook history (and calling me a klansman, which is a pretty serious accusation to levy so glibly) is not one I'm going to abide anymore because (a) it's f***ing BORING and (b) it doesn't even apply.

 

The words refugee and immigrant have different meanings and this ignorant fusion of the two is obfuscating the real discussion over this particular executive order and the broader debate hanging over it. People who think they informed on the issue just because they can recite history taught to every single high school student in this country and then calling me a KKK member because I have the nerve to say it may be a bit more nuanced is not pleasant.

 

 

Uh what?

 

No one is confusing immigrants and refugees, unless maybe you are?

 

Refugees are a subset of immigrants. Not all immigrants are refugees. That being said, Ill answer your questions. Do I think that it is the responsibility of the country to change for immigrants? I dont know, it depends on the scenario. Do I think that the US should have changed its policy towards african's and not allow slavery, absolutely. Do I think that if a bunch of Nazi's immigrated here we should change to being Nazis? Absolutely not.

 

That being said I think you misunderstood what I meant by "they dont have to assimilate". I didnt mean that they dont have to respect our laws, I mean that they dont have to change their religion or customs.

 

Just because you talk down to people and act like "they" are the ones who "dont understand", doesnt mean you actually understand.

 

So far you have thrown out a lot of "opinions" and have yet to support a single one. You compare Europe to US, when I say I dont find them comparable, you just say "You dont understand Europe", you dont even bother to explain why you believe they are comparable. You make some allegation that US was "cozy" with the Nazis and that it was because of Germans in the US. I ask for some evidence, you dont even respond.

 

I understand why you are running from the argument, and I just dont agree with your opinion at all. As of now, you have offered zero support for why refugees from these countries pose a risk to the US. Your best argument has been "Well Europe", which again is a completely different continent, isnt even a single country and has a completely different history with respect to refugees and immigrants.

 

[Con te Giolito]

Uh what?

 

No one is confusing immigrants and refugees, unless maybe you are?

 

Refugees are a subset of immigrants. Not all immigrants are refugees. That being said, Ill answer your questions. Do I think that it is the responsibility of the country to change for immigrants? I dont know, it depends on the scenario. Do I think that the US should have changed its policy towards african's and not allow slavery, absolutely. Do I think that if a bunch of Nazi's immigrated here we should change to being Nazis? Absolutely not.

 

That being said I think you misunderstood what I meant by "they dont have to assimilate". I didnt mean that they dont have to respect our laws, I mean that they dont have to change their religion or customs.

 

Just because you talk down to people and act like "they" are the ones who "dont understand", doesnt mean you actually understand.

 

So far you have thrown out a lot of "opinions" and have yet to support a single one. You compare Europe to US, when I say I dont find them comparable, you just say "You dont understand Europe", you dont even bother to explain why you believe they are comparable. You make some allegation that US was "cozy" with the Nazis and that it was because of Germans in the US. I ask for some evidence, you dont even respond.

 

I understand why you are running from the argument, and I just dont agree with your opinion at all. As of now, you have offered zero support for why refugees from these countries pose a risk to the US. Your best argument has been "Well Europe", which again is a completely different continent, isnt even a single country and has a completely different history with respect to refugees and immigrants.

You dont know or understand the difference between multiculturalism and assimilation. I'm sorry, you can do all the weaseling and "WHY WONT YOU RESPOND TO MY POINTS" but that kind of wanton disregard to even familiarize yourself to a college freshman level understanding of the issue disqualifies you from having a thought worth taking seriously on the matter. You say the USA and Europe are different, but aside from the Atlantic Ocean separating them you seem unable to explain why.

 

And you are hung up on this idea that I'm afraid of terror attacks and that its "risky" to let them in lest we invite more attacks onto our shores. That's not really the point and never has been. Terror attacks are just symptoms of larger issue Muslim refugees have assimilating into the native culture, but because you dont really understand what assimilation is (the fact that you think it means they have to respect our laws actually made me LOL) having this discussion with you is worthless. It'd be like asking my dog how to fix something on my car. I'm not falling for it, and my refusal to insult my own intelligence and do battle with somebody who is literally clueless on the topic is not "running away from the argument".

Edited February 1, 2017 by Con te Giolito

[illinilaw08]

And you are hung up on this idea that I'm afraid of terror attacks and that its "risky" to let them in lest we invite more attacks onto our shores. That's not really the point and never has been. Terror attacks are just symptoms of larger issue Muslim refugees have assimilating into the native culture, but because you dont really understand what assimilation is (the fact that you think it means they have to respect our laws actually made me LOL) having this discussion with you is worthless. It'd be like asking my dog how to fix something on my car. I'm not falling for it, and my refusal to insult my own intelligence and do battle with somebody who is literally clueless on the topic is not "running away from the argument".

 

It's like you entirely ignored SSK's post about assimilating immigrants in the US across the last 200 years - oh wait, you hand waved that away as a high school history lesson.

 

The point is that immigrants generally take a generation to assimilate, and have throughout American history. That's because of language gaps in the first generation, close communities made up of the same ethnicity, etc. The second generation learns the language and assimilates. In a lot of cases, they still hold on to their religion and identify with cultural things from their homeland, but that's no different than the way the Irish, Italians, Germans, etc. identify with their native land multiple generations down the road.

 

Your underlying point is the same point that has been made by Nativists and Isolationists about the "other" since this country was founded. But your argument actually goes further. In the above paragraph, you seem to be arguing that Muslim refugees are incapable of assimilating, and that their inability to assimilate leads to terror attacks (an argument that is not even a little bit backed up by any amount of data). Thus, your argument - if I'm understanding correctly - would support a blanket ban on further immigration by Muslims into the USA because none of your arguments are limited to the countries in Trump's ban. Which is a startling and really, really, un-American (at least it's antithesis to the values that this country was founded upon) argument to be making (not to mention that it's insulting to the many, many Muslims who are an important fabric of what makes America great).

[GoSox05]

You dont know or understand the difference between multiculturalism and assimilation. I'm sorry, you can do all the weaseling and "WHY WONT YOU RESPOND TO MY POINTS" but that kind of wanton disregard to even familiarize yourself to a college freshman level understanding of the issue disqualifies you from having a thought worth taking seriously on the matter. You say the USA and Europe are different, but aside from the Atlantic Ocean separating them you seem unable to explain why.

 

And you are hung up on this idea that I'm afraid of terror attacks and that its "risky" to let them in lest we invite more attacks onto our shores. That's not really the point and never has been. Terror attacks are just symptoms of larger issue Muslim refugees have assimilating into the native culture, but because you dont really understand what assimilation is (the fact that you think it means they have to respect our laws actually made me LOL) having this discussion with you is worthless. It'd be like asking my dog how to fix something on my car. I'm not falling for it, and my refusal to insult my own intelligence and do battle with somebody who is literally clueless on the topic is not "running away from the argument".

 

 

We get it. You are very smart and we are all very uneducated on this issue. I'm very sorry we have offended you, sir.

Edited February 1, 2017 by GoSox05

[GoSox05]

@Bencjacobs 12m12 minutes ago

 

Mike Flynn: As of today, we are officially putting Iran on notice

 

 

 

Can't wait for the Iran war. Bigger and better then the Iraq war.

[greg775]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

[Reddy]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

Because just about no one actually thought he'd do it, and he's doing it through executive order, not through legislation.

 

And before you say it, Obama tried legislation BEFORE resorting to EO's at the end of his Presidency.

[Con te Giolito]

We get it. You are very smart and we are all very uneducated on this issue. I'm very sorry we have offended you, sir.

Would you be offended if I implied that you were a member of the KKK?

[StrangeSox]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

 

This is exactly what he ran on, but I think some people* are shocked at just how quickly and incompetently they're implementing all of it.

 

 

*this includes me

Edited February 1, 2017 by StrangeSox

[Kyyle23]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

 

Maybe because we didn't want it then, and we don't want it now.

 

Get back to complaining about emails

[Steve9347]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

This is one of the best posts you've ever made.

 

In this thread, I think we're more appalled than surprised.

[StrangeSox]

Maybe because we didn't want it then, and we don't want it now.

 

Get back to complaining about emails

[southsider2k5]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

 

Not surprised. But that still doesn't mean we can't be outraged either. I would argue that Christians should be most outraged than anyone as this administration is in direct violation of the constitution by choosing to ban people on the basis of religion. This opens the the door to any and all religious discrimination into the legal realm in the name of "safety".

[LittleHurt05]

Not taking sides but didn't Trump run on these issues? Why is everybody so surprised there's a wall coming and a ban on immigrants? I thought he ran on these issues. And he won the election. So why the outrage now? America elected the guy on these issues.

 

I always thought his crazy ideas would have to go through Congress first, so there would be at least some discussion and common sense brought into the equation. Not just day 1, bam, pick 7 Muslim countries out of a hat, they gone!

[Soxbadger]

You dont know or understand the difference between multiculturalism and assimilation. I'm sorry, you can do all the weaseling and "WHY WONT YOU RESPOND TO MY POINTS" but that kind of wanton disregard to even familiarize yourself to a college freshman level understanding of the issue disqualifies you from having a thought worth taking seriously on the matter. You say the USA and Europe are different, but aside from the Atlantic Ocean separating them you seem unable to explain why.

 

And you are hung up on this idea that I'm afraid of terror attacks and that its "risky" to let them in lest we invite more attacks onto our shores. That's not really the point and never has been. Terror attacks are just symptoms of larger issue Muslim refugees have assimilating into the native culture, but because you dont really understand what assimilation is (the fact that you think it means they have to respect our laws actually made me LOL) having this discussion with you is worthless. It'd be like asking my dog how to fix something on my car. I'm not falling for it, and my refusal to insult my own intelligence and do battle with somebody who is literally clueless on the topic is not "running away from the argument".

 

My post got deleted accidentally so Ill paraphrase.

 

You are the one who keeps comparing the US to Europe, it is your argument, you need to support it.

 

But since you want some differences.

 

1) Europe is a continent, the US is a country.

 

2) Europe is comprised of different countries, the United States is a single country.

 

3) The US explicitly separated church and state.

 

I could keep going, but I think the first problem you have is that you are lumping "Europe" together instead of discussing individual European countries.

 

The last part is, you keep using terms and you fail to define them which is really poor form. My original comment about the US isnt a country of assimilation, was based on the idea of "forced" assimilation. After reading more of your posts, I now believe you were referring to "cultural" assimilation. You arent specific enough when you articulate your position.

 

And its interesting that you loled about respect for laws:

 

http://www.ceousa.org/immigration-assimili...on/assimilation

 

We believe it is important for all persons who live here to understand our history, respect our laws, and, most importantly, learn English so that they can fully integrate into the mainstream of society

 

5. Don’t break the law.

 

Not saying I agree with that website, but most would agree a part of assimilation is respecting the laws of the country you are in. And what is sad/funny, is that many of the problems Muslim assimilation has in Europe is based on laws in certain European countries, such as the burka ban, that make it impossible for Mulsims to truly assimilate.

 

But maybe youre right, maybe I dont know have a freshman level understanding of this subject, as clearly in your opinion a continent is comparable to a country.