Nick Swisher Retires

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

When Gio Gonzalez is literally the best play you've traded away, I think you're doing OK. Obviousl KW never focused on acquiring young players and keeping his farm intact, but honestly no one he traded away ever amounted to much. The Chris Youngs, Dan Hudsons, Aaron Poredas, Chris Carters, Jeremy Reeds, Brandon McCarthys, Clayton Richards, etc., never became quality big leaguers that would have been core players for the Sox. I didn't necessarily always love KWs style, but what he traded away never amounted to much.

 

What's wrong with Gio Gonzalez. That dude is a quality #3 starter. He's been a 3+ WAR pitcher for 7 straight years. Never had less than 27 starts in a year, and even threw in a really good 5 WAR season in 2012. The dude has carved out a really nice career.

 

He could reach 40 career WAR, which would put his career right around Dan Haren, Derek Lowe, Chris Carpenter.

[Two-Gun Pete]

When Gio Gonzalez is literally the best play you've traded away, I think you're doing OK.

Im not picking on you when I post this. But, the old, tired line of, "But he didn't give up much" is silly/dumb at best, and buyer's remorse at worst.

 

Its silly because that line of thought willingly ignores the team's status before the trade. It ignores whether the player acquired was the right one to acquire. And, it ignores the opportunity cost lost to other, perhaps more opportune trade options. (In another example, stupidly trading away value for Jeff Samardzjia when the team and manager are garbage is stooopud, even if one clings to the "didn't give up much" meme.)

 

 

IMO, the first swisher trade was dumb because KW acquired the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. Swisher was never a CFer. He was never a good leadoff man, even though Ozzie threw him outin CF/had him leadoff. Most of all, that '08 team, for all the fond game 163 memories, was not good enough to win anything. (With or without Swisher. ) And so, it was a pointless trade in which KW gave up value and got little to show for it in return.

 

Not only was Gonzalez lost in this trade, but there was also an opportunity cost to making a bad trade at an inopportune time. Perhaps Gonzalez, et.al could have been traded for a better option at a better time. Or perhaps Gonzalez could have provided 3 WAR/year here instead of elsewhere.

 

The second Swisher trade was yet another iteration of KW being utterly unable to extract any value in return for a decent player. What was the best piece out of that trade, Wilson Betemit? Marquez? What a f***ing joke.

 

Whether or not KW or Hahn "give up too much" in trade matters. But whether or not a trade should happen in the first place matters just as much, if not more. (Right, James Shields? ) Taken together, the two Swisher trades hurt this organization, when neither trade needed to happen, IMO. YMMV.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

YMMV.

 

You Make Me Vomit?

[Two-Gun Pete]

You Make Me Vomit?

Ha!

 

Your Mileage May Vary.

 

I know that the "he didn't give up much" meme is deeply ingrained in this fanbase, but its an idea that needs to be forgotten, IMO.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[ChiSoxJon]

Least favorite Sox player ever..with ease

 

Originally loved the acquisition and then his asshole/overly hyper personality was displayed to me...I've now heard AJ, Ozzie, and Griffey had issues with him

[Bob Sacamano]

What's wrong with Gio Gonzalez. That dude is a quality #3 starter. He's been a 3+ WAR pitcher for 7 straight years. Never had less than 27 starts in a year, and even threw in a really good 5 WAR season in 2012. The dude has carved out a really nice career.

 

He could reach 40 career WAR, which would put his career right around Dan Haren, Derek Lowe, Chris Carpenter.

 

Right? Dude's been a good starting pitcher his whole career. Regressed a bit the past few but still. Would have loved for him to pitch here.

[NCsoxfan]

Right? Dude's been a good starting pitcher his whole career. Regressed a bit the past few but still. Would have loved for him to pitch here.

 

Yup, this trade was a good example of the Sox trading a higher ceiling for a very small near term gain (which in that case didn't even really work out).

[lasttriptotulsa]

Yup, this trade was a good example of the Sox trading a higher ceiling for a very small near term gain (which in that case didn't even really work out).

 

Swisher was coming off back to back 4 fWAR seasons. I hardly call that a very small gain. The trade didn't work out but trading an unknown prospect plus filler for a 4 fWAR player when the team felt they could compete is not a bad move. Gio has only had 1 season that topped Swisher's '06, '07 seasons.

Edited February 19, 2017 by lasttriptotulsa

[Dick Allen]

Most of Soxtalk loved the trade. Swisher was a power guy high OBP.

 

His only year with the Sox, they did win the division .

[Bob Sacamano]

Most of Soxtalk loved the trade. Swisher was a power guy high OBP.

 

His only year with the Sox, they did win the division .

 

Wasn't on Soxtalk at the tine but yes, I did like the deal. In hindsight, however, bad trade.

[soxfan49]

Right? Dude's been a good starting pitcher his whole career. Regressed a bit the past few but still. Would have loved for him to pitch here.

I think his point is that if Gio Gonzalez is the best player you've ever traded, you didn't do horribly, especially considering the bad rap he gets in terms of never accumulating a farm.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Most of Soxtalk loved the trade. Swisher was a power guy high OBP.

 

His only year with the Sox, they did win the division .

While all of this may vary varying degrees of truthiness to it, I had my doubts about Swisher. He was primarily a 1B & corner OF prior to coming here. And though he had a decent OBP record, he was never a leadoff man. I suspected that Ozzie would "Square Peg" Swisher into roles in the field & in the lineup to which he was not ideally suited.

 

In the end, KW had to "fix" the mistake of acquiring Swisher by getting the desiccated remains of Junior to play CF. And sure, the SOX won the division, but by then Swisher was riding pine.

 

To top it all off, KW stupidly gave him away for a pile of poo, rather than keeping him here long enough for him to recoup some trade value. (As Hahn is rightly doing now with Robertson.)

 

Long story short, he was the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong team at the wrong price.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[turnin' two]

Good bye to my least favorite Sox player ever.

[Dick Allen]

While all of this may vary varying degrees of truthiness to it, I had my doubts about Swisher. He was primarily a 1B & corner OF prior to coming here. And though he had a decent OBP record, he was never a leadoff man. I suspected that Ozzie would "Square Peg" Swisher into roles in the field & in the lineup to which he was not ideally suited.

 

In the end, KW had to "fix" the mistake of acquiring Swisher by getting the desiccated remains of Junior to play CF. And sure, the SOX won the division, but by then Swisher was riding pine.

 

To top it all off, KW stupidly gave him away for a pile of poo, rather than keeping him here long enough for him to recoup some trade value. (As Hahn is rightly doing now with Robertson.)

 

Long story short, he was the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong team at the wrong price.

So he was just horrible , a square peg. But KW should never have rid himself of him. Hindsight is quite a thing.

[NCsoxfan]

Swisher was coming off back to back 4 fWAR seasons. I hardly call that a very small gain. The trade didn't work out but trading an unknown prospect plus filler for a 4 fWAR player when the team felt they could compete is not a bad move. Gio has only had 1 season that topped Swisher's '06, '07 seasons.

 

Ok you can debate my phrasing but the point is that anytime you trade a bundle of young talent for an established player, you are giving up upside. No team trades X current value for prospects that equal Y probability of reaching the same X value in the future.

[Dick Allen]

Ok you can debate my phrasing but the point is that anytime you trade a bundle of young talent for an established player, you are giving up upside. No team trades X current value for prospects that equal Y probability of reaching the same X value in the future.

Swisher was 27 years old signed to a team friendly contract. At the time Gio was not all that highly thought of around here. It is a trade contending teams make, and the Sox were a contender.

 

The trade didn't cause the White Sox to miss out on any championship runs.

[Two-Gun Pete]

So he was just horrible , a square peg. But KW should never have rid himself of him. Hindsight is quite a thing.

And straw man arguments are quite a thing as well.

 

Literally no one made the argument as you are attempting to phrase it.

 

Yes, Swisher was forced into roles that probably lessened his effectiveness as a player. Do you disagree?

 

But no, NO ONE said that KW "never should have rid himself" of Swisher. KW stupidly sold low on Swisher after his worst season, instead of retaining him long enough to rebuild his value. And you were even supplied with an example of this in Robertson.

 

DA, when you stay off the hyperbole & straw man arguments, you're a heck of a poster. You don't need to do that.

[Quin]

Gio Gonzalez is basically the only player Kenny traded that amounted to being worth a damn. Unless we're gonna pine for Chris Carter.

[ptatc]

And straw man arguments are quite a thing as well.

 

Literally no one made the argument as you are attempting to phrase it.

 

Yes, Swisher was forced into roles that probably lessened his effectiveness as a player. Do you disagree?

 

But no, NO ONE said that KW "never should have rid himself" of Swisher. KW stupidly sold low on Swisher after his worst season, instead of retaining him long enough to rebuild his value. And you were even supplied with an example of this in Robertson.

 

DA, when you stay off the hyperbole & straw man arguments, you're a heck of a poster. You don't need to do that.

Sometimes cutting your loses is better with certain players.

[credezcrew24]

Gio Gonzalez is basically the only player Kenny traded that amounted to being worth a damn. Unless we're gonna pine for Chris Carter.

 

I would be interesting to see a list of players Kenny traded sorted by career war. If Gio really is number 1, Chris Young might be number two.

[southsider2k5]

While all of this may vary varying degrees of truthiness to it, I had my doubts about Swisher. He was primarily a 1B & corner OF prior to coming here. And though he had a decent OBP record, he was never a leadoff man. I suspected that Ozzie would "Square Peg" Swisher into roles in the field & in the lineup to which he was not ideally suited.

 

In the end, KW had to "fix" the mistake of acquiring Swisher by getting the desiccated remains of Junior to play CF. And sure, the SOX won the division, but by then Swisher was riding pine.

 

To top it all off, KW stupidly gave him away for a pile of poo, rather than keeping him here long enough for him to recoup some trade value. (As Hahn is rightly doing now with Robertson.)

 

Long story short, he was the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong team at the wrong price.

 

Except that Hahn has spent the winter trying to trade both Robertson and Frazier. But with all of this hyperbole, I wouldn't let that get in the way of a good rant?

[Two-Gun Pete]

Except that Hahn has spent the winter trying to trade both Robertson and Frazier. But with all of this hyperbole, I wouldn't let that get in the way of a good rant?

And yet, both Frazier & Robertson are still here, rebuilding their trade values, whereas Swisher was dumped for a pile of poo.

 

Exactly how was the previous post a "rant?" And where did I exaggerate to the point of "hyperbole? "

Edited February 21, 2017 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

And yet, both Frazier & Robertson are still here, rebuilding their trade values, whereas Swisher was dumped for a pile of poo.

 

Exactly how was the previous post a "rant?" And where did I exaggerate to the point of "hyperbole? "

 

You used terms in a post like "desiccated remains" and "pile of poo" and can't see where you used hyperbole? lol, ok popgun.

[witesoxfan]

We have conversations about both Gonzalez and Swisher, so I am going to toot my own horn, because this is one of my favorite posts I have ever made. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...t&p=2612000