Progressive Feminists/BLM people/etc

[Reddy]

Throughout these months of the Resistance, I've run into this crazy phenomenon known as the raging progressive. A person who is so wrapped up in their victimhood and the righteousness of their fight, that they've made all straight white men the enemy - even those of us equally as progressive as they. I've found that there's literally no way to have a debate with these people regarding ANYTHING without it devolving into an angry attack at my white male privilege and my "fragility" - even when we're discussing something unrelated to politics.

 

My question is.... how the f*** do you talk with these people? How do I debate or offer a tactical suggestion (ie: regarding the Resistance and how we fight rampant misogyny or bigotry)? What I don't understand is that for any of these issues to find success and progress, they'll NEED white men in their coalition! It's basic math! And this mindset is exactly why we have Trump in the first place, so why on EARTH are these people still so dead set against learning from their mistakes?

 

But really this post is about how I can better approach these conversations where I ALREADY feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but no matter how much I defer and validate their positions, the second I voice my opinion I'm told to "sit down" because of my white male-ness... which... you know... I totally chose (hypocrisy much?). My approach isn't working... I need to find something that does.

 

HALP.

[Boopa1219]

As a 4* member of the resistance, those people make me sick too. If you're not going to have intelligent conversation with someone, how can you expect something positive to happen.

 

But if I were a white man, I wouldn't tell a POC or a woman that they're going to need me to get some traction in their movement, that sounds so 'privileged'. You don't need white men to do anything. Actually this whole post sounds that way, if that really grinds your gears then thank goodness you're not a minority.

 

If I were you I would remain calm, state where you're coming from and acknowledge your privileges. If they're still not willing to have a dialogue, leave and go on to the next person. Also don't let those bad experiences define your expectations for everyone else.

[Reddy]

As a 4* member of the resistance, those people make me sick too. If you're not going to have intelligent conversation with someone, how can you expect something positive to happen.

 

But if I were a white man, I wouldn't tell a POC or a woman that they're going to need me to get some traction in their movement, that sounds so 'privileged'. You don't need white men to do anything. Actually this whole post sounds that way, if that really grinds your gears then thank goodness you're not a minority.

 

If I were you I would remain calm, state where you're coming from and acknowledge your privileges. If they're still not willing to have a dialogue, leave and go on to the next person. Also don't let those bad experiences define your expectations for everyone else.

 

I don't mean "need" as in need me to speak for them or lead their movement or - hell - be involved in their movement. But they need white votes and they need white men to agree with them re: things like misogyny if they actually want it to stop. But you're right, I should figure out a better way to make that point.

Thanks.

[greg775]

Throughout these months of the Resistance, I've run into this crazy phenomenon known as the raging progressive. A person who is so wrapped up in their victimhood and the righteousness of their fight, that they've made all straight white men the enemy - even those of us equally as progressive as they. I've found that there's literally no way to have a debate with these people regarding ANYTHING without it devolving into an angry attack at my white male privilege and my "fragility" - even when we're discussing something unrelated to politics.

 

My question is.... how the f*** do you talk with these people? How do I debate or offer a tactical suggestion (ie: regarding the Resistance and how we fight rampant misogyny or bigotry)? What I don't understand is that for any of these issues to find success and progress, they'll NEED white men in their coalition! It's basic math! And this mindset is exactly why we have Trump in the first place, so why on EARTH are these people still so dead set against learning from their mistakes?

 

But really this post is about how I can better approach these conversations where I ALREADY feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but no matter how much I defer and validate their positions, the second I voice my opinion I'm told to "sit down" because of my white male-ness... which... you know... I totally chose (hypocrisy much?). My approach isn't working... I need to find something that does.

 

HALP.

Great post. Easy answer. Obvious answer. Just agree with them. Just nod and let them say whatever they want and agree with them and tell them they are great. That's the solution to all conversations nowadays. Don't tell your true feelings. Just tell the person you are speaking with she/he is 100 percent correct on all issues and it's your privilege to know him/her. Life is too short to disagree with somebody like that. No reason to debate with them at all. Stroke their egos and compliment them incessantly as they've been complimented and praised their entire lives I'm sure.

[Reddy]

Great post. Easy answer. Obvious answer. Just agree with them. Just nod and let them say whatever they want and agree with them and tell them they are great. That's the solution to all conversations nowadays. Don't tell your true feelings. Just tell the person you are speaking with she/he is 100 percent correct on all issues and it's your privilege to know him/her. Life is too short to disagree with somebody like that. No reason to debate with them at all. Stroke their egos and compliment them incessantly as they've been complimented and praised their entire lives I'm sure.

Sigh.

 

Some of us actually want to accomplish things, learn, grow, collaborate, communicate and solve problems for the betterment of humanity, as opposed to making our own personal lives as easy as possible.

[G&T]

Well, it's kinda hard to opine when you don't say what topics you are "debating" and what your "opinions" are.

 

I would note that the way you feel now is probably how women and POC have felt in the workplace for a long time. Also, some people just want to be offended and there is nothing to be gained anyway. But I think more info would help.

 

It's an interesting topic.

[RockRaines]

Listen to them and what they are going through. Too many people dismiss the opinions of others because their own experiences dont match. I dont think enough people actually understand what women and minorities go through on a daily basis. If they are vilifying you because you are a white male, then they are most likely conditioned to be closed minded as well. I'm a white 1%'er and I've been through these experiences many times. It definitely takes a while to reach common ground.

[bigruss]

It's a hard balance between not being viewed as a white male hero and trying to do good. Most of these movements need to take a page from the LGBTQ one and encourage allies more. Don't need champions, the leadership, message, etc should all come from those who have the experiences, etc. But you need allies.

 

They also need to do a better job at explaining the reason behind it to white suburbia, it's unfortunate but white suburbia tends to be really ignorant to these problems (or at least the scale of issues is different).

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

Throughout these months of the Resistance, I've run into this crazy phenomenon known as the raging progressive. A person who is so wrapped up in their victimhood and the righteousness of their fight, that they've made all straight white men the enemy - even those of us equally as progressive as they. I've found that there's literally no way to have a debate with these people regarding ANYTHING without it devolving into an angry attack at my white male privilege and my "fragility" - even when we're discussing something unrelated to politics.

 

My question is.... how the f*** do you talk with these people? How do I debate or offer a tactical suggestion (ie: regarding the Resistance and how we fight rampant misogyny or bigotry)? What I don't understand is that for any of these issues to find success and progress, they'll NEED white men in their coalition! It's basic math! And this mindset is exactly why we have Trump in the first place, so why on EARTH are these people still so dead set against learning from their mistakes?

 

But really this post is about how I can better approach these conversations where I ALREADY feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but no matter how much I defer and validate their positions, the second I voice my opinion I'm told to "sit down" because of my white male-ness... which... you know... I totally chose (hypocrisy much?). My approach isn't working... I need to find something that does.

 

HALP.

 

It's funny, I remember a recent thread where you refused to acknowledge a poster's opinion because of his white male privilege.

[Soxbadger]

Throughout these months of the Resistance, I've run into this crazy phenomenon known as the raging progressive. A person who is so wrapped up in their victimhood and the righteousness of their fight, that they've made all straight white men the enemy - even those of us equally as progressive as they. I've found that there's literally no way to have a debate with these people regarding ANYTHING without it devolving into an angry attack at my white male privilege and my "fragility" - even when we're discussing something unrelated to politics.

 

My question is.... how the f*** do you talk with these people? How do I debate or offer a tactical suggestion (ie: regarding the Resistance and how we fight rampant misogyny or bigotry)? What I don't understand is that for any of these issues to find success and progress, they'll NEED white men in their coalition! It's basic math! And this mindset is exactly why we have Trump in the first place, so why on EARTH are these people still so dead set against learning from their mistakes?

 

But really this post is about how I can better approach these conversations where I ALREADY feel like I'm walking on eggshells, but no matter how much I defer and validate their positions, the second I voice my opinion I'm told to "sit down" because of my white male-ness... which... you know... I totally chose (hypocrisy much?). My approach isn't working... I need to find something that does.

 

HALP.

 

Some people dont want to be helped and there is nothing you can do to change it.

 

The reality is, people like that arent likely to be very productive/helpful in any sort of change because they are unable/unwilling to compromise.

[Reddy]

It's funny, I remember a recent thread where you refused to acknowledge a poster's opinion because of his white male privilege.

 

Rabbit and I just like to beat up on each other, and most of my responses to him are in troll form. But additionally, we're at opposite ends of the political spectrum. This question here more pertains to people that are ideologically on the same page yet vilify each other even though they've got the same goals.

 

[Reddy]

Some people dont want to be helped and there is nothing you can do to change it.

 

The reality is, people like that arent likely to be very productive/helpful in any sort of change because they are unable/unwilling to compromise.

But just like they need us, don't we need them? The progressive movement needs the Bernie wing - as hardline and uncompromising as they tend to be. Don't we?

[Soxbadger]

But just like they need us, don't we need them? The progressive movement needs the Bernie wing - as hardline and uncompromising as they tend to be. Don't we?

 

Do I need someone who is not going to listen to my ideas because I happen to be a white guy?

 

No.

 

There is a big difference between someone saying "I believe in free trade, I do not agree with tariffs, I am not going to budge on this for the following reasons." As compared to someone saying "Youre a white male, Im not listening to you because of this."

 

I dont mind someone who stubbornly stands by their beliefs, thats like their opinion man. But I have no time for someone who isnt going to listen, merely because I may be of a different race, gender, whatever. Id just tell them good luck and go on my way. They dont want my talent, Ill gladly take it somewhere else.

[Reddy]

Well, it's kinda hard to opine when you don't say what topics you are "debating" and what your "opinions" are.

 

I would note that the way you feel now is probably how women and POC have felt in the workplace for a long time. Also, some people just want to be offended and there is nothing to be gained anyway. But I think more info would help.

 

It's an interesting topic.

 

The most recent convo came regarding women getting angry about being called "girls", and in the argument the point was made that women don't call men "boys" which is categorically false. "I'm with the boy" "me and the boy" "hey i hear you have a new boy" etc etc etc etc

 

Me:

 

I don't call women (or groups including women) "guys" anymore - though it's still a conscious choice every time to say "you all" or some variation of that.

 

The only thing I'll disagree with Mayim on here, is that women call men boys or "boy" alllllll the time. Also, a question: women (and men!) call men "guys". What's the appropriate synonym for women?

 

Then, here's my post that got the angry ball rolling:

 

Obviously context matters. I totally appreciate your perspective, and will absolutely honor it regarding how I refer to you!

 

But interestingly, I know plenty of women - I've actually had a lot of conversations on this exact topic - who feel the word woman is "too formal" or "mature" for them at this point in their lives, and in informal settings they'd rather be called something else. Again, I totally appreciate your perspective on this, like I said, but might this be one of those things that falls into the category of "respect whatever the hell the person you're talking to prefers"? If I'm off base I'm open to your views here.

 

All that said, I do think that saying "boy"'s diminishment of men doesn't matter, but "girl"'s diminishment of women does is... problematic. I understand the context of history, obviously, but If we're aiming to solve the problem - really solve it - we have to solve ALL the problems, because they're interconnected. Breeding resentment among men won't help lead them to end rape culture and deeply ingrained misogyny, I promise.

 

Thanks for this discussion. Really appreciate it.

 

Her:

 

I did not say it "didn't matter," I said it was "different." There is no historical oppression of white males, so calling a man "boy" does not lead to the same problematic diminishment of one's humanity and maturity as does calling a woman "girl."

 

Maybe men should worry about ending rape culture themselves instead of putting it on women not to "breed resentment among" them.

 

 

Me:

 

Obviously we need to be shining a light on and prioritizing the horrific injustices that still exist in this country among our marginalized communities, including natives, blacks, latinos, lgbt, women - absolutely. But we can't COMPLETELY disregard white men and make them the enemy or we'll never win elections, we'll never get the policy changes we need, and we'll never end rape culture and misogyny.

 

Her:

 

Andrew, sit down with your white male fragility. I did not say your "feelings didn't matter." I said there is not a historical oppression of white males, ergo, calling a white male boy is different. It may very well hurt a man's feelings. That is personal. But there isn't a cultural ramification to calling a white male "boy" like there is with calling a woman "girl."

 

And it devolved from there - where I ended up getting painted in pretty f***ed up strokes by the gang of women that joined in the convo. Thoughts? Ways for me to improve?

 

 

[Soxbadger]

First rule of dealing with internet trolls, when you realize that they are a troll stop posting. If you really want to engage them, realize that they are a troll and that no logical argument can be presented to change their mind.

 

I wouldnt even know where to begin to respond to that inanity without really enraging them all. Which is why I wouldnt even both because its all just opinion, and no one is ever going to get people to agree on opinions. If they cant focus on the real issue, its just not worth the time.

[Jenksismyhero]

The most recent convo came regarding women getting angry about being called "girls", and in the argument the point was made that women don't call men "boys" which is categorically false. "I'm with the boy" "me and the boy" "hey i hear you have a new boy" etc etc etc etc

 

Me:

 

 

 

Then, here's my post that got the angry ball rolling:

 

 

 

Her:

 

 

 

 

Me:

 

 

 

Her:

 

 

 

And it devolved from there - where I ended up getting painted in pretty f***ed up strokes by the gang of women that joined in the convo. Thoughts? Ways for me to improve?

 

Don't. They're unreasonable and illogical. They don't deserve an audience, much like the extreme conservatives that are Trump supporters. I'm a conservative but i'm not going to engage with those people because they are too far gone. I don't want them in my party. You shouldn't want those people in yours either.

[bigruss]

Yea I don't really think there was a possible win in that situation.

[CrimsonWeltall]

First rule of dealing with internet trolls, when you realize that they are a troll stop posting. If you really want to engage them, realize that they are a troll and that no logical argument can be presented to change their mind.

 

Trolls are insincere and looking to mess with people. Sounds like the people Reddy was dealing with are just extremely uncharitable, argumentative, and looking to be offended.

 

But I'd agree that "ignore" is the proper course of action here.

[greg775]

Sigh.

 

Some of us actually want to accomplish things, learn, grow, collaborate, communicate and solve problems for the betterment of humanity, as opposed to making our own personal lives as easy as possible.

Yes but even you here said they are unreasonable. That's why just agree with them and stroke their egos and let them feel like the special people they are.

 

Don't. They're unreasonable and illogical. They don't deserve an audience, much like the extreme conservatives that are Trump supporters. I'm a conservative but i'm not going to engage with those people because they are too far gone. I don't want them in my party. You shouldn't want those people in yours either.

Yeah but if you want them to remain friends just tell them they are right. They are so far gone as you say just tell them they are right and they are special. And if they blast you just say you deserve their wrath. No possible way to have a discussion so just agree.

[RockRaines]

Yea I don't really think there was a possible win in that situation.

Eventually you have to sit back and realized that some people are just dumb. And move on.

[Quin]

Dude.

[caulfield12]

Simple, just tell them you agree with most of their points philosophically....ask as a white man what it is that you can be doing "right now" to help and ask if there's any upcoming projects or events you can participate in as a white male that will involve direct service/action to change things (and that do not require a debate about viewpoints, historical perspectives, etc.)

Edited March 28, 2017 by caulfield12

[G&T]

The most recent convo came regarding women getting angry about being called "girls", and in the argument the point was made that women don't call men "boys" which is categorically false. "I'm with the boy" "me and the boy" "hey i hear you have a new boy" etc etc etc etc

 

Me:

 

 

 

Then, here's my post that got the angry ball rolling:

 

 

 

Her:

 

 

 

 

Me:

 

 

 

Her:

 

 

 

And it devolved from there - where I ended up getting painted in pretty f***ed up strokes by the gang of women that joined in the convo. Thoughts? Ways for me to improve?

 

Pointers:

First, you made the mistake of saying we need to solve "all of the problems." No, you're trying to resolve historic systemic injustice. White men do not have that problem.

 

Second, your comment about rape culture is asking for trouble. It really isn't relevant that women make men feel bad. Rape is wrong regardless. Never remotely imply that women bear responsibility for changing men's action regarding rape.

 

[Reddy]

First rule of dealing with internet trolls, when you realize that they are a troll stop posting. If you really want to engage them, realize that they are a troll and that no logical argument can be presented to change their mind.

 

I wouldnt even know where to begin to respond to that inanity without really enraging them all. Which is why I wouldnt even both because its all just opinion, and no one is ever going to get people to agree on opinions. If they cant focus on the real issue, its just not worth the time.

 

She isn't a troll. She truly and strongly believes these things, and we've known each other for years.

[Reddy]

Pointers:

First, you made the mistake of saying we need to solve "all of the problems." No, you're trying to resolve historic systemic injustice. White men do not have that problem.

 

Second, your comment about rape culture is asking for trouble. It really isn't relevant that women make men feel bad. Rape is wrong regardless. Never remotely imply that women bear responsibility for changing men's action regarding rape.

 

Fair points. Thanks.