NCAA basketball thread 2017-18

[southsider2k5]

I tend to not care generally about schools paying kids on the recruiting trail. I know it's against the NCAA's rules, but the kids are unpaid labor (I know, I know, they get scholarships) whose likenesses and talents bring in loads of revenue for everybody other than themselves. Ergo, while I tend to agree that the head coach obviously knows how the assistant is operating, I can't really bring myself to care that much (and that includes Pitino, Calipari, Miller, etc.).

 

With that being said, the indictment against Evans is that he steered players toward a specific agency, and that he was paid around $22k for his influence. If that is the extent of the allegations against Evans, it's reasonable to believe that Underwood isn't caught up in that. Doesn't directly impact recruiting, the payments are really pretty small for a guy making north of $1M annually. Underwood would have to be dumb to be pulled into that.

 

BUT I think one of the allegations on Evans says that he said that he needed some cash to set up a recruit's mom. That gets into an area where the NCAA could have an issue with Underwood. Also don't know what Evans might say/know that might get Underwood in trouble with the feds.

 

The minimum that has to happen is that the NCAA finds that this happened under Underwood's watch and he should have known about it. That is exactly what Pitino got his suspension for with the hooker scandal even though there was no actual evidence connecting him to it at all. If there is any evidence or testimony at all that Underwood did know anything about it at all, that pushes it to a whole other level. We aren't talking about much here at all for this to take down Underwood, or any other head coach for that matter.

[greg775]

The players should be getting paid anyway.

That might be a popular refrain in all this if this wasn't a federal crime. The fact crimes are alleged here puts the coaches in an extremely vulnerable position. If it was "just" paying players that's one thing. You'd get some analysts saying players should be paid anyway and the NCAA should be dissolved.

But throw the federal crime in here and all the coaches that get nailed in this are doomed.

First of all, some of the head coaches (so far four assistants) are going to get booked as common criminals and they'll have to defend themselves in court or get plea bargains.

What this all means is anybody implicated in this (the FBI I read is 99 percent conviction proof when they go after somebody) is done coaching and also is going to have a crime on their record. You are talking about these rich beyond belief coaches with no defense or avenue of support of public opinion at all. Schools will have to fire them (ADs will be canned as well) because you can't keep somebody who has been convicted of a crime by the courts. Even the analysts in favor of players getting paid won't dare back a coach on this.

Truthfully most of these coaches that find out they are in the bullseye of the FBI probably would be smart heading to NBA benches and fast, that is if they want to stay in coaching.

 

Just my take. The "everybody does it" thing doesn't work here because of CRIME being involved. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.

 

This post isn't so much in response to your comments; you just got me to thinking of this take.

 

[greg775]

There's also a really good chance you think the coach sucks at your favorite school if he is trying to recruit cleanly.

Pretty good line. The wild thing is let's say out of the top 20 recruits according to ESPN.com and Rivals.com, 10 of them are big time players who came through the AAU system. Let's say they all 10 are getting money from shoe companies to go to a certain school and the coaches know about it. Yikes. If the investigation is thorough enough, all 10 of the college coaches probably committed crimes. Let's say 5 of the kids are from Mali or Nigeria. And they all have "mentors" who brought them over here, put them in academies and bartered deals with colleges. And accepted money from schools to funnel kids there. More crimes.

 

This may sound dumb, but should the NCAA declare this upcoming season null and void? Have no games at all while conducting an all-out fact finding assault on college hoops? It seems to me like somebody posted here there could be a "majority" of top 20 programs guilty of something. Yikes.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

Edited September 28, 2017 by greg775

[Jenksismyhero]

The minimum that has to happen is that the NCAA finds that this happened under Underwood's watch and he should have known about it. That is exactly what Pitino got his suspension for with the hooker scandal even though there was no actual evidence connecting him to it at all. If there is any evidence or testimony at all that Underwood did know anything about it at all, that pushes it to a whole other level. We aren't talking about much here at all for this to take down Underwood, or any other head coach for that matter.

 

I'd be surprised if head coaches have direct involvement with this stuff. Out of sight out of mind. Plausible deniability. And more practically, HC's don't do the heavy lifting when it comes to recruiting. They close the deal but the assistants are the ones running most of it.

 

If Pitino didn't have the extortion case and the stripper case, my guess is that he'd still have a job today. You get to use the "i didn't know" excuse once. Maybe a suspension, maybe a few vacated wins, but I think most coaches would survive a "rogue" assistance coach.

[southsider2k5]

I'd be surprised if head coaches have direct involvement with this stuff. Out of sight out of mind. Plausible deniability. And more practically, HC's don't do the heavy lifting when it comes to recruiting. They close the deal but the assistants are the ones running most of it.

 

If Pitino didn't have the extortion case and the stripper case, my guess is that he'd still have a job today. You get to use the "i didn't know" excuse once. Maybe a suspension, maybe a few vacated wins, but I think most coaches would survive a "rogue" assistance coach.

 

Typically, yes. But with the size, scope, and the legal implications of this specific incident, I think schools aren't going to be as accommodating as they typically would for NCAA violations.

[Jenksismyhero]

Pretty good line. The wild thing is let's say out of the top 20 recruits according to ESPN.com and Rivals.com, 10 of them are big time players who came through the AAU system. Let's say they all 10 are getting money from shoe companies to go to a certain school and the coaches know about it. Yikes. If the investigation is thorough enough, all 10 of the college coaches probably committed crimes. Let's say 5 of the kids are from Mali or Nigeria. And they all have "mentors" who brought them over here, put them in academies and bartered deals with colleges. And accepted money from schools to funnel kids there. More crimes.

 

This may sound dumb, but should the NCAA declare this upcoming season null and void? Have no games at all while conducting an all-out fact finding assault on college hoops? It seems to me like somebody posted here there could be a "majority" of top 20 programs guilty of something. Yikes.

 

Just thinking out loud here.

 

No chance. Go read the story I linked to a page or two ago. This same sort of investigation has happened in college bball before. Schools have been punished for it before. This isn't anything new and i'm kind of shocked why so many of the national writers are pretending like this is some major dooms day event. It's a big deal because the FBI is involved, and they all want to write the popular anti-NCAA story, but I bet in 3 months time nothing will change. The season will start and we'll be done with it. Some of these schools will have fall out, but the vast majority of teams won't.

[southsider2k5]

Deadspin‏Verified account @Deadspin 4h4 hours ago Report: FBI looking into Nike's "grassroots basketball" division: http://deadsp.in/ZK1PFEW

 

 

[RockRaines]

No chance. Go read the story I linked to a page or two ago. This same sort of investigation has happened in college bball before. Schools have been punished for it before. This isn't anything new and i'm kind of shocked why so many of the national writers are pretending like this is some major dooms day event. It's a big deal because the FBI is involved, and they all want to write the popular anti-NCAA story, but I bet in 3 months time nothing will change. The season will start and we'll be done with it. Some of these schools will have fall out, but the vast majority of teams won't.

Lots of head coaches will be fired and the AAU and camp system may not exist like it did before.

 

but they will find a way. Everyone needs to remember the schools profit the most from the relationship with these companies. Look at the money they get, and they dont have to put on things like camps anymore. There are top tier coaches that get less than 500k in salary from the school but almost 10 mil from the shoe company.

Edited September 28, 2017 by RockRaines

[illinilaw08]

Typically, yes. But with the size, scope, and the legal implications of this specific incident, I think schools aren't going to be as accommodating as they typically would for NCAA violations.

 

Well, this specific incident, based on the allegations to date, as it pertains to Underwood are that Evans used his influence to steer kids to a specific agency in exchange for $22k. Evans (and by extension Underwood) aren't tied up in $100k to Bowen or the $150k for Little (I think that's the AZ side of this). There might be more on Evans, and there might be a lot against Underwood that hasn't come out yet, but based on the indictment against Evans, Underwood looks pretty insulated.

[bmags]

Well, this specific incident, based on the allegations to date, as it pertains to Underwood are that Evans used his influence to steer kids to a specific agency in exchange for $22k. Evans (and by extension Underwood) aren't tied up in $100k to Bowen or the $150k for Little (I think that's the AZ side of this). There might be more on Evans, and there might be a lot against Underwood that hasn't come out yet, but based on the indictment against Evans, Underwood looks pretty insulated.

 

You are correct, but I think what you need to worry about is information being uncovered that doesn't implicate Underwood in the criminal investigation but could uncover basic recruiting violations that the NCAA is not just going to ignore.

 

Presumably, the investigators could ask what directions or activities they were doing in general, and Evans could answer honestly that he made payments for a recruit and underwood knew, etc.

 

Or it may not. And Even if it happened, that could just affect OK State, but NCAA has tried to use things like this before to enforce their own rules.

 

He's probably fine, but the issue isn't if BU is going to be arrested for this crime, he probably sin't, it's if in the process of investigating this crime they uncover non-criminal recruiting violations that pull in underwood.

 

edit: and again, why I bring this up is how the NCAA used the criminal investigation of Shapiro for information on non-criminal recruiting violations by Frank Haith.

[bigruss]

I still think that if Underwood gets roped in then Frank Martin and many other coaches would too. It's plausible that only Underwood would have evidence tying him in but if the NCAA wants to tag team on they would really have to go for all associated coaches, which could be a big list.

[southsider2k5]

I still think that if Underwood gets roped in then Frank Martin and many other coaches would too. It's plausible that only Underwood would have evidence tying him in but if the NCAA wants to tag team on they would really have to go for all associated coaches, which could be a big list.

 

It wouldn't shock me at all for this to hit a number of coaches. I seen no scenario where ONLY Pitino bites it for this.

[bigruss]

Well Illinois is going to have a rough week in recruiting it looks like.

[Jenksismyhero]

Well Illinois is going to have a rough week in recruiting it looks like.

 

I take it that news is starting to trickle in that they are missing out on all their big targets?

 

I'm not surprised really. They've been so bad. I think Underwood needs to use this year as a showcase and hope that 2019 brings in the big class.

[bigruss]

I take it that news is starting to trickle in that they are missing out on all their big targets?

 

I'm not surprised really. They've been so bad. I think Underwood needs to use this year as a showcase and hope that 2019 brings in the big class.

Conditt and Castleton are pretty much gone, just awaiting official announcements. Enjoy them Heads and Brian, super jealous of you guys right now

 

Still have a shot with Nolley but not a great one. Already lost Kisunas to UCONN.

 

Ayo and THT still very much in the mix but looking like late October for commitments from them.

[Jenksismyhero]

Conditt and Castleton are pretty much gone, just awaiting official announcements. Enjoy them Heads and Brian, super jealous of you guys right now

 

Still have a shot with Nolley but not a great one. Already lost Kisunas to UCONN.

 

Ayo and THT still very much in the mix but looking like late October for commitments from them.

 

Illinois is short on big guys. Pun intended.

[Boogua]

Illinois is short on big guys. Pun intended.

Losing Castleton hurts because it looks like he may have been able to contribute right away. Conditt and Kisunas seem like projects. Illinois will have time to bring in some other bigs. Finke and Black are both only juniors and who knows what will be available on the transfer market next year.

[Heads22]

I guess the thought here is that ISU thinks they have a good shot at THT.

[bmags]

I wonder where Ramey goes

[bigruss]

I guess the thought here is that ISU thinks they have a good shot at THT.

They do, Illinois needs him badly and Xavier has come on strong. He's been a tough read though.

[southsider2k5]

Dennis Dodd‏Verified account @dennisdoddcbs 5h5 hours ago Filed to CBS Sports: One of the coaches impacted the most in the FBI investigation sits in a studio and doesn't coach basketball.

 

 

[bmags]

So he doesn't fit the bill but if it takes down gottlieb that would make it a heartwarming story.

[bigruss]

I'm sure I'm missing an obvious person but the only person I could think of that is actively in studio and a somewhat recent HC is Seth Greenberg.

[fathom]

It was Chip Kelly

[bigruss]

It was Chip Kelly

Wasn't even thinking of football coaches, good call.