Most Airlines just don't seem to care

[Chicago White Sox]

Not sure what they could ultimately get for this but both United and the aviation police screwed up.

 

First of all, United did not follow policy/protocol for bumping someone off a flight who did not volunteer to do so. Someone posted the link earlier but if they were going to remove him from the plane, he was supposed to be offered up to 4x the cost of his ticket in cash/check (maxed at $1300 or so). They only offered $800 and it was in United vouchers so that shouldn't have counted.

 

The police, on the other hand, used excessive force against a non-threatening senior citizen and wound up doing serious physical damage.

 

I just don't see how he doesn't get a pretty hefty settlement.

You really don't get how this works at all. United can offer them whatever they want in vouchers (up until a self imposed limit per internal policy) to get customers to voluntarily forgoe their ticket. If they have to force someone off unvoluntarily, they have to by law pay a specific amount based on how much of the passenger's time is lost as a result. Unfortunately, given that he refused to get off the plane in the first place (and eventually forced off by police), this benefit was likely never presented to him. So when you say United did not follow policy and cite the example used above, you are completely incorrect.

[Chicago White Sox]

http://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UAL/?ltr=1

 

United getting fairly close to their low of two days ago.

 

I'll guess they start out in the $100+ million range and settle before it even gets to trial. Nothing good is coming out of a prolonged public spectacle for UAL. They've already lost close to $750 million, not even including cancellations in the last 48-72 hours.

Are you actually suggesting this dude will be asking for $100M? Where in the hell did you come up with that number? The largest lawsuit my company has faced in the past six years (and we have faced a dozen or so serious ones) was $20M and that involved the deaths & dismemberment of a half dozen people. This guy will get a couple million max in a settlement.

 

And what's this lost $750M? Please don't tell me this is stock price related.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

You really don't get how this works at all. United can offer them whatever they want in vouchers (up until a self imposed limit per internal policy) to get customers to voluntarily forgoe their ticket. If they have to force someone off unvoluntarily, they have to by law pay a specific amount based on how much of the passenger's time is lost as a result. Unfortunately, given that he refused to get off the plane in the first place (and eventually forced off by police), this benefit was likely never presented to him. So when you say United did not follow policy and cite the example used above, you are completely incorrect.

 

Except according to their own rules, they weren't allowed to do ANYTHING once he'd already boarded the plane without violating their own carriage agreement.

 

The argument he later became "combative/disruptive" was directly caused by BREAKING their own rules (trying to de-board someone involuntarily) which were not adhered to here.

[caulfield12]

Are you actually suggesting this dude will be asking for $100M? Where in the hell did you come up with that number? The largest lawsuit my company has faced in the past six years (and we have faced a dozen or so serious ones) was $20M and that involved the deaths & dismemberment of a half dozen people. This guy will get a couple million max in a settlement.

 

And what's this lost $750M? Please don't tell me this is stock price related.

 

Yes, it's market (cap) valuation...look at the fall in the Dow this week, compared to UAL. At least 50-75% is clearly related to this individual incident.

 

That's not even measuring losses/lowered profitability in terms of revenue over the next quarter or two.

 

Maybe $100 million was hyperbolic, but they'll start out asking for $25-50 million because they have 3 deep-pocked entities involved here. And that's not even taking into consideration potential lawsuits (the teacher and his students) who potentially can argue damages as witnesses/direct participants in the day's events.

 

 

United Pilots' Union is taking the position of blaming Chicago (and trying to separate themselves, good luck!)

 

1. This violent incident should never have happened and was a result of gross excessive force by Chicago Department of Aviation personnel.

2. No United employees were involved in the physical altercation.

3. Social media ire should properly be directed at the Chicago Aviation Department.

4. This occurred on an Express flight operated by Republic Airline, as such, the flight crew and cabin crew of Flight 3411 are employees of Republic Airline, not United Airlines.

5. United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz has apologized for United Airlines, the actions of the Chicago Department of Aviation, and the actions of our Express partner, Republic Airline.

 

For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded. At this point, without direction and outside the control of United Airlines or the Republic crew, the Chicago Department of Aviation forcibly removed the passenger.

 

Members of local airport law enforcement are normally important security partners who assist aircrews in ensuring the safety of everyone on the airplane. This event was an anomaly and is not how United or the police are expected to treat passengers when there is no security threat.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/infuriat...-222221180.html

Edited April 14, 2017 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes, it's market (cap) valuation...look at the fall in the Dow this week, compared to UAL. At least 50-75% is clearly related to this individual incident.

 

That's not even measuring losses/lowered profitability in terms of revenue over the next quarter or two.

 

Maybe $100 million was hyperbolic, but they'll start out asking for $25-50 million because they have 3 deep-pocked entities involved here. And that's not even taking into consideration potential lawsuits (the teacher and his students) who potentially can argue damages as witnesses/direct participants in the day's events.

My point is the stock will rebound. Nothing has been lost. Any setback in operating performance (which is a reach) will be short-term in nature. This is simply an overreaction in the market to a big negative news story. Happens all the time.

[greg775]

Google the attorney's name and watch today's news conference. It was awesome. Love that attorney. He even invoked Steve Martin in Planes Trains And Automobiles. I kid you not. I LOVE that attorney. Damn he was cool. Reminded me of Ray Meyer meets Mayor Daley.

[Chicago White Sox]

Except according to their own rules, they weren't allowed to do ANYTHING once he'd already boarded the plane without violating their own carriage agreement.

 

The argument he later became "combative/disruptive" was directly caused by BREAKING their own rules (trying to de-board someone involuntarily) which were not adhered to here.

Well I'm not sure that's a true statement. The article you provided seems to challenge whether they had the right to boot him off the plane, but acknowledged it was somewhat of a gray area given the fact it involved the crew of another flight. I would guess this happens from time to time and is within their rights, but if not, then I will fully acknowledge this particular group of United employees f***ed up here. Having said all that, the post you quoted was simply challenging BigSqurt's understanding of the general rules/laws regarding passenger compensation for voluntarily/involuntarily removal from a plane.

[Dick Allen]

One thing to keep in mind, just because something is in small print on a ticket doesn't necessarily mean it is legally enforceable.

[caulfield12]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-pledg...-052957932.html

 

In the future, law enforcement will not be involved in removing a "booked, paid, seated passenger," Munoz said. "We can't do that."

 

In an effort to calm the backlash, United also announced that passengers on United Express Flight 3411 would be compensated equal to the cost of their tickets. United spokeswoman Megan McCarthy said Wednesday that the passengers can take the compensation in cash, travel credits or miles.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

You really don't get how this works at all.

 

 

then I will fully acknowledge this particular group of United employees f***ed up here.

 

Which is what I was getting at but whatever. Continue being Mr. Contrarian on this topic.

[greg775]

Well, this story's 15 minutes are up. On to the next one.

[greg775]

Yes there are two sides to every story. We don't know if these 2 people were trying to be freeloaders, but if somebody was truly sleeping in their row and they merely were a few rows up, again shame on United. I mean, it sounds like this plane wasn't full and United again overreacted. Yes there's probably more to this story but I would bet United was unreasonable here or the passengers that got kicked off wouldn't have sought publicity on this.

United blows as an airline obviously.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/style/united-airlines...-181721817.html

[Chicago White Sox]

Yes there are two sides to every story. We don't know if these 2 people were trying to be freeloaders, but if somebody was truly sleeping in their row and they merely were a few rows up, again shame on United. I mean, it sounds like this plane wasn't full and United again overreacted. Yes there's probably more to this story but I would bet United was unreasonable here or the passengers that got kicked off wouldn't have sought publicity on this.

United blows as an airline obviously.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/style/united-airlines...-181721817.html

God, the thoughts of you as a juror are terrifying.

[southsider2k5]

God, the thoughts of you as a juror are terrifying.

 

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

― George Carlin

[greg775]

God, the thoughts of you as a juror are terrifying.

The guy lost 2 teeth, suffered a concussion for no good reason. Of course I'd hold out to award him zillions. He deserves a huge payday.

 

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”

― George Carlin

Yeah anybody that disagrees with you folks or George Carlin I guess is stupid. I thought Carlin was a genius but his opinion on some social issues wasn't exactly scholarly. For some reason Chicago White Sox is taking the side of United on this one just because technically they have the right to kick you off the plane at any time. Yes most people would have behaved. That guy didn't want to be denied a flight home so he balked. He didn't deserve to get his face kicked in and I hope he wins 100 million or more. We get treated like sheep on flights and United should have to pay for wrecking this man's face.

[Chicago White Sox]

The guy lost 2 teeth, suffered a concussion for no good reason. Of course I'd hold out to award him zillions. He deserves a huge payday.

 

 

Yeah anybody that disagrees with you folks or George Carlin I guess is stupid. I thought Carlin was a genius but his opinion on some social issues wasn't exactly scholarly. For some reason Chicago White Sox is taking the side of United on this one just because technically they have the right to kick you off the plane at any time. Yes most people would have behaved. That guy didn't want to be denied a flight home so he balked. He didn't deserve to get his face kicked in and I hope he wins 100 million or more. We get treated like sheep on flights and United should have to pay for wrecking this man's face.

My comment was regarding this new United story in which you basically said "I know there are two sides to a story, but United must be guilty". No need to hear that other side right Greg.

 

And lol at this guy deserving $100M. People who spend half their adult lives in prison for crimes they didn't commit don't get anywhere close to that amount of money when finally proved innocent. I can't comprehend how anyone could be so out of touch with reality. Calling you Forest Gump is putting too nicely.

[southsider2k5]

My comment was regarding this new United story in which you basically said "I know there are two sides to a story, but United must be guilty". No need to hear that other side right Greg.

 

And lol at this guy deserving $100M. People who spend half their adult lives in prison for crimes they didn't commit don't get anywhere close to that amount of money when finally proved innocent. I can't comprehend how anyone could be so out of touch with reality. Calling you Forest Gump is putting too nicely.

 

To be fully honest here, I would be shocked to see the guy get a whole lot of money. To a large extent the law is on the side of United here. They have the policy in place as a part of ticket reservation, and the actual violence was done by police officials, and not the United staff. My guess is that a settlement is reached, and the terms are kept confidential, and it is more in the area of seven figures than nine.

[Chicago White Sox]

To be fully honest here, I would be shocked to see the guy get a whole lot of money. To a large extent the law is on the side of United here. They have the policy in place as a part of ticket reservation, and the actual violence was done by police officials, and not the United staff. My guess is that a settlement is reached, and the terms are kept confidential, and it is more in the area of seven figures than nine.

Oh I 100% agree, a million or two would be a pretty realistic settlement. I just find it comical that anyone thinks this guy deserves a nine figure settlement under any scenario.

[Jenksismyhero]

Oh I 100% agree, a million or two would be a pretty realistic settlement. I just find it comical that anyone thinks this guy deserves a nine figure settlement under any scenario.

 

I sure hope I don't get you on some of my juries, unless i'm representing a plaintiff!

 

As a matter of perspective, keep in mind that victims of sex abuse by priests get 1-3 million. Excessive force claims are all over the road, but $100k-$300k for minor injuries is common. I'll stick with what I said a few days ago - this will settle for way less than a million unless there's some decent evidence that he sustained a more serious injury, like brain damage (unlikely).

Edited April 17, 2017 by JenksIsMyHero

[greg775]

My comment was regarding this new United story in which you basically said "I know there are two sides to a story, but United must be guilty". No need to hear that other side right Greg.

 

And lol at this guy deserving $100M. People who spend half their adult lives in prison for crimes they didn't commit don't get anywhere close to that amount of money when finally proved innocent. I can't comprehend how anyone could be so out of touch with reality. Calling you Forest Gump is putting too nicely.

Then my bad on writing it poorly. I meant that there are two sides to every story thus you can't necessarily take as gospel the word of the man and woman who were given the boot off the plane. Again, if I wrote it that poorly, I'm sorry. My bad.

Man I am not advocating anybody get banned, but I'm getting sick of being called stupid. Look, if I implied I consider myself dumb as dirt I again wrote it poorly. I have no problem with self worth and I am tired of being called a stupid simpleton. If I have to, I'll battle anybody on here on a test of knowledge. I have a college degree with a 3.7 GPA; I was in the top 10 of my high school class until plummeting my senior year to about 15th because of senior-itis. I am not stupid. Please do not imply I am a dumbass.

 

I sure hope I don't get you on some of my juries, unless i'm representing a plaintiff!

 

As a matter of perspective, keep in mind that victims of sex abuse by priests get 1-3 million. Excessive force claims are all over the road, but $100k-$300k for minor injuries is common. I'll stick with what I said a few days ago - this will settle for way less than a million unless there's some decent evidence that he sustained a more serious injury, like brain damage (unlikely).

Thanks for the post. I did not realize the sex abuse victims got that amount of money. Thanks for educating me. That's why I come to message boards. To give my forceful comments, yet learn and thus back off when I'm wrong. Thank u

Edited April 17, 2017 by greg775

[greg775]

$UAL earnings release and they go up even further. They went up 2.46% today and up 1%+ after hours.

I think somebody immediately posted last week United's stock would be fine. I took that as gospel and never felt this incident would ruin United. People will always buy the cheaper plane ticket. Yes this story's 15 minutes affected some people and was definitely bad PR for United, but like most stories, it has(had) about a week shelf life and it's over. Dr. Dao might rejuvenate it a bit if he ever gets interviewed but this story is pretty much OVA.

For this reason (short shelf life of stories) I was surprised United's final statement admitted fault and the company did change its policy in the wake of this. Surprised they did that, cause they've admitted guilt and that means a decent payday for Dao. In that regard I respect United just a bit.

Edited April 17, 2017 by greg775

[greg775]

Yeah, same guy called a contrarian.

Not by me. Cheers to u.

[caulfield12]

The average 9/11 family ended up with $3 million or so.

 

If it was your father, I highly doubt you'd typify his injuries as "minor" when considering the fact half the world's population has now viewed the video...not to mention the public humiliation of his past medical board issues that he certainly never asked to be relitigated by the likes of TMZ. That's not even considering the racial profiling aspects of this and his age and the fact United precipitated the whole set of events by deboarding him once he was seated without justifiable cause as there was never an "overbooking" by paying customers. That crew showed up in the last thirty minutes before the flight took off, and they rushed into a decision to accommodate them without thinking through the chain of events they were about to set in motion.

 

If a jury ever gets an opportunity to screw United (back), the amount rewarded will be pretty shocking.

 

As far as supporting UAL by buying their stock, go for it. We are a profit-first oriented society, but there's an eventual consequence to consistently putting profits over people. It's inexorably leading to the erosion of our societal framework of universal mutual respect and treating others how we would like to be treated.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

The average 9/11 family ended up with $3 million or so.

 

 

Why are you equating the death of a family member with egregious conduct that resulting in pretty minor injuries? And did that money come from an actual lawsuit? Or were those private donations/public funds set up for the families?

 

If it was your father, I highly doubt you'd typify his injuries as "minor" when considering the fact half the world's population has now viewed the video...not to mention the public humiliation of his past medical board issues that he certainly never asked to be relitigated by the likes of TMZ. That's not even considering the racial profiling aspects of this and his age and the fact United precipitated the whole set of events by deboarding him once he was seated without justifiable cause as there was never an "overbooking" by paying customers. That crew showed up in the last thirty minutes before the flight took off, and they rushed into a decision to accommodate them without thinking through the chain of events they were about to set in motion.

 

None of this is really relevant to the damages he sustained. Whether he was outed by public news channels is not United or the City of Chicago's fault (and I believe that's all public info that was true, so he has no claim against the various news agencies). I think there's still an open question as to whether United acted legally or not. s***ty? Absolutely. But illegal? I don't know the answer to that.

 

If a jury ever gets an opportunity to screw United (back), the amount rewarded will be pretty shocking.

 

Nah, it really won't. Not in the ballpark you're imagining. And again, if that did happen, the judge or an appeals court would lower that verdict.

 

As far as supporting UAL by buying their stock, go for it. We are a profit-first oriented society, but there's an eventual consequence to consistently putting profits over people. It's inexorably leading to the erosion of our societal framework of universal mutual respect and treating others how we would like to be treated.

 

Don't disagree with this.

 

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Yeah, same guy called a contrarian.

 

Calling him a contrarian had nothing to do with United's stock price. I'm not sure you understand what that word means.