Pledge Dies at Penn State, 18 Charged

[greg775]

What do you think of the situation at Penn State? A pledge died in February after getting s***faced drunk during a hazing game and the actives would not call 911 until 10:30 in the morning when they concocted a story that he was found behind the bar freezing.

Some horrible details available in the link I provided. There were multiple opportunities to help the pledge or get him to the hospital. None were employed so 18 students were charged, some with involuntary manslaughter.

 

A have a lot of opinions on this, too many to even write down. One death like this is too many.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-frater...ory?id=47226888

[Dick Allen]

What do you think of the situation at Penn State? A pledge died in February after getting s***faced drunk during a hazing game and the actives would not call 911 until 10:30 in the morning when they concocted a story that he was found behind the bar freezing.

Some horrible details available in the link I provided. There were multiple opportunities to help the pledge or get him to the hospital. None were employed so 18 students were charged, some with involuntary manslaughter.

 

A have a lot of opinions on this, too many to even write down. One death like this is too many.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-frater...ory?id=47226888

i understand being young, scared and stupid, but to not call for help after they found him at the bottom of the stairs is hard to comprehend. There apparently are some bad people in that house. You would think at least one person would have realized what needed to be done and did it, but no. The story made it seem like he had a good chance at surviving had he been given help hours sooner.

[greg775]

i understand being young, scared and stupid, but to not call for help after they found him at the bottom of the stairs is hard to comprehend. There apparently are some bad people in that house. You would think at least one person would have realized what needed to be done and did it, but no. The story made it seem like he had a good chance at surviving had he been given help hours sooner.

It sure did sound like he had many opportunities to survive like you said, Dick. I couldn't believe the one line about how when he fell in the room off the couch somebody punched him in the stomach. WTF is that?

 

One time when I was in a frat, a bunch of guys were sitting in a circle on the floor. This wasn't a hazing thing, just stupid frat s***. I walked in the room and saw they had several bottles of whiskey and each were taking a chug and passing it. The one freshman opened his throat and whiskey was guzzling down his throat into his stomach like in the movies or a Three Stooges short when they are chugging the whole bottle. As the booze was emptying the bottle I screamed, "Stop him!" and I knocked the bottle away from him.

Anyhow, they stopped playing and about 10 minutes later the freshman was s***faced drunk just like in this story. Some asshole threw him in the shower and turned the water on him. Again I was prepared to step in, but this time somebody else screamed, "Leave him alone! Turn that water off him!!!" Anyhow somebody immediately drove him (he might have dried off a bit) to the hospital. They pumped his stomach or did whatever and he was OK. He went on to lead a great life; he's still living and a millionaire I believe. The frat didn't get in trouble because it wasn't forced drinking. The kid was doing it in the circle to impress I guess.

 

My question is ... if he had died would I be in prison? Or would I not be charged? Would any of the frat guys who chugged with him been charged with murder? Would the guy who turned the water on him in the shower be in jail now? Would those who watched him get the water turned on him be in jail now?

 

I tell you, this hazing bulls*** has to stop. Why? Because a.) people can die. b.) people can be charged with murder if they die. I feel like each fraternity in the USA should have an apartment in which a police officer resides in the frat. You have 80-100 guys in one building and alcohol and rituals of "Hazing" still in existence, that's asking for TRAGEDY.

 

Do any of you have stories of hazing? Or a story like mine where somebody you know almost died from drinking at a frat?

[Jake]

I don't mean this as a defense of the people whose negligence allowed him to die, but a major problem that led to his status not being treated correctly is that a person who has been almost mortally wounded from internal head trauma may not act or look all that different from a pledge getting completely blown out drunk for one of the first times in his life.

 

In my day to day life, if I see a person who can barely walk or is splayed on the ground and barely moving...that's a panic moment. But at a college party (I wasn't in a frat but almost all big social events at the school I went to were frat-sponsored), I wouldn't have found that kind of thing particularly alarming and would probably have just checked to make sure the person hadn't choked on vomit and was still breathing/didn't have some kind of obvious injury from falling down. When you're all drunk and you are used to seeing people so drunk they are non-responsive, it starts to become a bit difficult to make the right judgments about who really, really needs help right away.

[caulfield12]

One thing's for sure, the solution isn't having police officers hovering over fraternities.

 

If people that age can't learn how to control or manage themselves, then they simply need to suffer the consequences of losing their frats/sororities as well as facing criminal/civil penalties as in this case.

 

A large part of the college/university experience is about growing up...becoming more mature and responsible, adding police or security officers into the mix is not the right way to go about it.

 

 

The next thing is that parents would request to have all of their children's classrooms under 24 hour video surveillance (that they could watch from home)...at some point, you have to trust teachers, or, in this case, 21-23 year olds, to be the leaders they are supposed to be.

[Jerksticks]

I don't mean this as a defense of the people whose negligence allowed him to die, but a major problem that led to his status not being treated correctly is that a person who has been almost mortally wounded from internal head trauma may not act or look all that different from a pledge getting completely blown out drunk for one of the first times in his life.

 

In my day to day life, if I see a person who can barely walk or is splayed on the ground and barely moving...that's a panic moment. But at a college party (I wasn't in a frat but almost all big social events at the school I went to were frat-sponsored), I wouldn't have found that kind of thing particularly alarming and would probably have just checked to make sure the person hadn't choked on vomit and was still breathing/didn't have some kind of obvious injury from falling down. When you're all drunk and you are used to seeing people so drunk they are non-responsive, it starts to become a bit difficult to make the right judgments about who really, really needs help right away.

 

Yea i agree, and neither of us is making light of death. I don't think any policies need to be enacted, changed etc. because of this. As with any dangerous activity there will always be a microscopic percentage that end in fatality. Skydiving, rock climbing, military combat, airplanes, camping in bear country, pledging a frat...the list goes on. All precautions to mitigate stupid are part of self-policing damgerous activity. It pisses me off nobody recognized the situation, but it's also hard for me to count those young men as criminals.

[greg775]

but it's also hard for me to count those young men as criminals.

Agreed but a lot of bad judgment to say the least. For example, the one fraternity member who sent out the email saying 'we may have a problem; so and so was drunk and fell"

Also the one fraternity member who told everybody in the frat to say the same thing to authorities, that they found the kid drunk behind the bar shivering at 10 a.m. If they had told the truth maybe they'd have checked for head trauma.

 

Finally, the police incident report was almost written like the deceased was trying to "escape" a torture chamber. Several times it said he got up to get out and then would fall again, the one time hitting his head again. Lot of really bad judgment and from the tone of the police and the DA and everybody, you are going to see a lot of 2 to 5 year prison sentences in this case. A lot of these college kids are gonna wind up serving 15 months or so in jail.

Edited May 8, 2017 by greg775

[RockRaines]

College kids have always been dumb, and will continue to be dumb.

 

Alcohol and College Students:

Prevalence of Alcohol Use:

Prevalence of Drinking: According to the 2015 NSDUH, 58.0 percent of full-time college students ages 18–22 drank alcohol in the past month compared with 48.2 percent of other persons of the same age.22

Prevalence of Binge Drinking: According to the 2015 NSDUH, 37.9 percent of college students ages 18–22 reported binge drinking in the past month compared with 32.6 percent of other persons of the same age.22

Prevalence of Heavy Drinking: According to the 2015 NSDUH, 12.5 percent of college students ages 18–22 reported heavy alcohol use in the past month compared with 8.5 percent of other persons of the same age.22

Consequences—Researchers estimate that each year:

1,825 college students between the ages of 18 and 24 die from alcohol-related unintentional injuries, including motor-vehicle crashes.23

696,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are assaulted by another student who has been drinking.24

97,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 report experiencing alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape.24

Roughly 20 percent of college students meet the criteria for AUD.25

About 1 in 4 college students report academic consequences from drinking, including missing class, falling behind in class, doing poorly on exams or papers, and receiving lower grades overall.26

 

People love targeting something they can see, like the fraternity in this case, but really alcohol will continue to be the common denominator.

Edited May 8, 2017 by RockRaines

[Kyyle23]

It is pretty easy to call these kids criminals. They knew something was wrong, they waited 12 hours after he hit his head to call the police and they organized a common story that did not include the part about him falling down the stairs. Everything they did leading up to the moment when he lost consciousness was dumb college kid stuff, everything they did afterwards was criminal, they basically let the kid die of a brain bleed instead of calling an ambulance

[RockRaines]

It is pretty easy to call these kids criminals. They knew something was wrong, they waited 12 hours after he hit his head to call the police and they organized a common story that did not include the part about him falling down the stairs. Everything they did leading up to the moment when he lost consciousness was dumb college kid stuff, everything they did afterwards was criminal, they basically let the kid die of a brain bleed instead of calling an ambulance

Morons. Definite lack of oversight for those activities.

[Soxbadger]

Seeing as serving alcohol to someone underage is a crime, its not hard to call them criminals. I understand that they may not have "wanted" anyone to get hurt and that they likely didnt want to get the hospital/police involved because they were worried about getting in trouble.

 

The problem is that by avoiding something like an underage drinking ticket, they instead are now facing much worse consequences. I can empathize as someone who has been involved in bad decisions in college, but at a certain point you have to realize that you are compounding bad decisions. The only thing that could really help in a situation like this would be an "amnesty" program, where the school/police agree that if you report something life threatening you wont get prosecuted.

 

Not that I believe that would ever happen.

[RockRaines]

Seeing as serving alcohol to someone underage is a crime, its not hard to call them criminals. I understand that they may not have "wanted" anyone to get hurt and that they likely didnt want to get the hospital/police involved because they were worried about getting in trouble.

 

The problem is that by avoiding something like an underage drinking ticket, they instead are now facing much worse consequences. I can empathize as someone who has been involved in bad decisions in college, but at a certain point you have to realize that you are compounding bad decisions. The only thing that could really help in a situation like this would be an "amnesty" program, where the school/police agree that if you report something life threatening you wont get prosecuted.

 

Not that I believe that would ever happen.

We always had at least 2 sober supervisors at events like that so people could make actual adult decisions. Clearly these morons were more interested in self preservation.

[greg775]

It is pretty easy to call these kids criminals. They knew something was wrong, they waited 12 hours after he hit his head to call the police and they organized a common story that did not include the part about him falling down the stairs. Everything they did leading up to the moment when he lost consciousness was dumb college kid stuff, everything they did afterwards was criminal, they basically let the kid die of a brain bleed instead of calling an ambulance

I agree.

 

We always had at least 2 sober supervisors at events like that so people could make actual adult decisions. Clearly these morons were more interested in self preservation.

This is actually something I've not heard of and could be an amazing solution. Sober supervisors would have worked in this case big time. However, the hazing part of it is already against campus rules and enough to get the chapter suspended and/or its charter revoked. But I love the sober supervisor idea. Somebody, anybody in charge.

The fact the fraternity president is facing manslaughter charges in this case means he approved of the hazing bulls***, however.

[Dick Allen]

Yea i agree, and neither of us is making light of death. I don't think any policies need to be enacted, changed etc. because of this. As with any dangerous activity there will always be a microscopic percentage that end in fatality. Skydiving, rock climbing, military combat, airplanes, camping in bear country, pledging a frat...the list goes on. All precautions to mitigate stupid are part of self-policing damgerous activity. It pisses me off nobody recognized the situation, but it's also hard for me to count those young men as criminals.

Definitely criminals. They tried making up a story. To act like they were clueless that something was wrong is ridiculous. With all the stories, they knew their frat was in trouble if they called for help. That's why they didn't call, not because they had no idea something was seriously wrong. I was in a fraternity and was hazed as a pledge. Once even engaging in a "shot for shot" contest with our pledge dads that was in reality, pledges chugging beers until they each puked. I guess we got really lucky nothing bad ever happened.

 

They knew he fell down the stairs and knew he wasn't responding to attempts to get him to wake up. There were at least a couple of people aware of the seriousness, including the guy who originally discovered him. But they were too scared about the consequence, and it cost the kid his life.

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-fraternity. I also think the scrutiny they get and reputation that every single one is Animal House is not deserved (although mine was a lot like Animal House although our grades were a bit better). But these are college students. They knew better.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

There was a similar situation that occurred in college at a fraternity. There was an "auction" event where girls from other sororities showed up at their fraternity house and would bid on pledges to essentially act as a slave. That sounds really bad typing it out, but it was usually a menial task like vacuuming or helping move some stuff. Anyways, the members of this fraternity got their pledges incredibly intoxicated for this event, and one of them was so bombed that he tripped down the stairs and knocked his head a few times. Thankfully, these fraternity members were responsible enough to immediately call some paramedics, and he was air lifted to Sioux Falls. I believe there was some permanent damage and a lawsuit against the fraternity, but he lived. There were other issues with that fraternity too, including a possible recruit dying of alcohol poisoning at a rush function. Needless to say, they no longer have a chapter at USD.

 

I imagine that Beta chapter will also be eliminated.

 

Fraternities can be great and I wouldn't be the person I am today without joining mine, but, frankly, they can be incredibly dangerous too for any number of reasons.

[Kyyle23]

I also saw on the news this morning that his BAC was .40, when the hospital got him. That is incredible

[RockRaines]

There was a similar situation that occurred in college at a fraternity. There was an "auction" event where girls from other sororities showed up at their fraternity house and would bid on pledges to essentially act as a slave. That sounds really bad typing it out, but it was usually a menial task like vacuuming or helping move some stuff. Anyways, the members of this fraternity got their pledges incredibly intoxicated for this event, and one of them was so bombed that he tripped down the stairs and knocked his head a few times. Thankfully, these fraternity members were responsible enough to immediately call some paramedics, and he was air lifted to Sioux Falls. I believe there was some permanent damage and a lawsuit against the fraternity, but he lived. There were other issues with that fraternity too, including a possible recruit dying of alcohol poisoning at a rush function. Needless to say, they no longer have a chapter at USD.

 

I imagine that Beta chapter will also be eliminated.

 

Fraternities can be great and I wouldn't be the person I am today without joining mine, but, frankly, they can be incredibly dangerous too for any number of reasons.

Without oversight, any organized group of college kids where there are 22 year olds and 18 year olds can be super dangerous. Our baseball team was notorious for their hazing, as were we. The key was to always have someone there with a clear head, and thats why we never had anything worse than some stitches while I was there. This is also why my fraternity is re-colonizing because we got tossed when the idiots starting running the show.

[greg775]

I imagine that Beta chapter will also be eliminated.

 

Fraternities can be great and I wouldn't be the person I am today without joining mine, but, frankly, they can be incredibly dangerous too for any number of reasons.

To Penn State's credit, they immediately disbanded the Beta house when the kid died and allegations surfaced. Boom. No more Beta house.

As far as your last sentence, why fraternities are great ... (mine had a rule against hazing and it was pretty much abided to, the rule was an active must do the same stuff as a pledge or the pledge doesn't have to do it. They had some big paddling ceremony one time when I was a pledge and my active big brother knew I thought it was bulls*** and didn't want to get slammed with a paddle so he just tapped me; he was on the football team so when he got booed he told them all to f*** off and do something about it).

 

POSITIVES

-- I made some lifelong friends. I was in about 10 weddings of my best friend frat guys, best man in many.

-- Met women from sororities who came to our parties. Automatic way to meet women.

-- Automatic social life in going to school out of state; had immediate friends.

-- Intramurals were a blast and living with 80 guys could always get a game of football, softball, tennis, awesome.

-- Quiet places to study during study hours.

-- Good test file where we could find professors' past tests

-- Good advice from older guys on what classes to take

-- Great social life

-- Very good food; breakfast, lunch dinner all taken care of. Regular meals without cooking them yourself.

-- Met some big wig adults on campus who were affiliated with our frat

 

NEGATIVES

-- Sleeping dorm. Way too cold in winter. Horrible setup.

-- Had to put up with some bulls*** my freshman year, not hazing but had to take some formal written test about the history of the frat (I'm trying to make honor roll and get all As and I've got to study for some bulls*** frat test??? Awful).

-- Hated mandatory housecleaning duties (hey, somebody has to clean the place though).

-- Had to find places to study on campus when house had a big party or dad's day or something.

-- Had to go on a walkout to another state freshman year when I was really trying to get off on a good foot academically; hard to get good grades when you got tests on a Monday and you are out of town drinking all weekend for some mandatory walk out.

 

Postives outweighed the negatives IMO.

--

[Texsox]

This is actually a good reason to lower the drinking age to 18 (19?). Get the drinking more out in the open where you can drive a kid to the hospital without the threat of punishment for underaged drinking. These things also happen away from fraternities, but if this was a local bar, image the response.