Walking Out of Graduations Like Notre Dame's

[southsider2k5]

So the students should have risen up in insurrection against Pence? Or...put down his insurrection in the name of bigotry? Or the slaveholders should have listened to more abolitionist speeches? The analogy seems to fall apart pretty quickly.

 

Burying your head in the sand to what the other side is about didn't solve anything, which is what the vast majority of the US did over slavery.

[EvilMonkey]

They got no where by "walking out" on the issue.

Just like #hashtag activism. Oh, they got good feelz for it, but what did it accomplish? Did it 'raise awareness'? No, everyone interested is aware already the first 1000 times you did stupid stuff.

[southsider2k5]

Just like #hashtag activism. Oh, they got good feelz for it, but what did it accomplish? Did it 'raise awareness'? No, everyone interested is aware already the first 1000 times you did stupid stuff.

 

All that is being done is to further the divide in the US, shrink the ground that could be used to bridge those gaps, and to push more of the country to the extremes. It furthers the creations of the next Trumps on the left and right.

[greg775]

You do see the irony/contradiction here though, right?

 

You have students who want tolerance, yet they won't listen to a person speak.

 

You have students who feel so strongly against a person/topic that they are protesting and leaving. Yet they are accepting a degree from a school whose organization is against the same topic.

 

A student who could into Notre Dame could get into any number of quality schools who don't offend their beliefs as well.

 

I really don't care what they do it just seems contradictory.

THANK YOU. Even though I feel like ptatc doesn't like me, he backed me here. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY!!! Thank u ptatc. And for the record I love ptatc's knowledge of injuries. He da man whether he likes me or not.

[illinilaw08]

The part I highlighted is absolutely 100% true. Violence and attacks are OK as long as it is someone they don't agree with.

 

What "violence and attacks" have been made in the name of gay rights?

 

Also, I'm really struggling with the framing of this issue as a simple disagreement. One side of this debate attempts to deny equal protections to a class of people based on their sexual orientation because that's how they interpret their religion. That side also endorses "therapy" to try to force that sexual orientation out of that class of people. And their actions have directly led to an extremely high incidence of suicides among that class of people. This isn't a simple disagreement. Just like slavery and the Civil Rights Act weren't simple disagreements among people.

 

Now, I certainly agree that civil disobedience is a more effective mechanism for reaching people who are undecided on the issue. And I think that insults don't go very far in reaching people. But the two sides of this debate are not battling for the moral high ground. And when you are talking about taking away people's equal rights under the law, you are somewhere beyond a mere disagreement.

[RockRaines]

I mean, we are talking about it and the issues behind it. Thats the point.

[StrangeSox]

Burying your head in the sand to what the other side is about didn't solve anything, which is what the vast majority of the US did over slavery.

 

It's a heck of a lot more complicated than that and there was plenty of politicking, advocating, and full-blown violence well before 1861. Given what was at stake, it wasn't going to be solved by more speeches or dialogue, and the sooner slavery was eradicated from the country, the better.

 

I don't need to listen to Mike Pence give a speech in order to know what he's "about."

[greg775]

The conclusions drawn are incredible. I'm an adult. I can listen to people I disagree with and sometimes even gain an appreciation for what I didn't believe or understand when I do. I'm accepting of all words. I don't detest people based on them having different beliefs. I won't address your ridiculous hypothetical as it has no basis in reality nor any practical value to address.

OMG, what a great post! Rabbit is the voice of reason here IMO! It's so gratifying to see some people who agree with me!

[StrangeSox]

All that is being done is to further the divide in the US, shrink the ground that could be used to bridge those gaps, and to push more of the country to the extremes. It furthers the creations of the next Trumps on the left and right.

 

Mike Pence would like to psychologically and physically torture people that I love. He wants to deny them basic rights. There's no bridge-building there until he gives up his bigotry.

 

Are there any viewpoints you'd consider to be unworthy of discussion and "bridge-building"? Do you condemn what John Brown was trying to do?

Edited May 22, 2017 by StrangeSox

[illinilaw08]

Burying your head in the sand to what the other side is about didn't solve anything, which is what the vast majority of the US did over slavery.

 

What is your argument here? Should the Civil War have occurred 40 years earlier? Or should the abolitionists have been nicer to the slave owners? One side of the slavery debate literally treated human beings as chattel because of the color of their skin.

[bmags]

It's funny reading pro-slavery primary sources and the very popular and essentailly marxist arguments they were making against capitalism as to justify why slavery was actually humane.

 

My favorite part about that is it is a sign of the dominance politics to come. I guarantee they did not actually believe it, but they took an honest critique of 19th century capitalism to gain legitimacy in their argument and deflect from their barbarism.

[greg775]

I have seen people from Mike Pence to Bill Clinton speak in person. I think a large part of life is seeing what the other side sees, instead of treating them like an infectious disease. The best way to change hearts and minds is to really understand the other side, and not just through the talking points you are given. Understanding why Mike Pence exists is way more important than what Mike Pence has to say. Walking out on a speech is the easy way out.

You sir, are a wise man IMO and my type of person. Life is very boring listening to one side, people who agree with you. You may all hate me, but at least I like to be educated on the opposing viewpoint. Both sides of issues fascinate me. Kudos to you for your position.

 

Personally, I would have a morbid sense of curiosity about what makes them tick and to see how they work a crowd.

Of course. Great post IMO.

 

I agree with the not always agreeing with the stance of the school. But for someone to disagree with the stance enough to stage a protest but still not care about it enough to attend the school is just funny.

That's what I was trying to say in my posts but I didn't do it well enough cause I got blasted on here!

 

I remember back in HS, my freshman year we had to write to a politician (of our choice) for our civics class. I wrote to President Bush, who I really didn't like at the time. I didn't get a response, which wasn't a surprise, but then my mom tells me like 3 months later that I got a photo of the president in the mail but she threw it out since she knew I wasn't a fan. I was pretty stunned and actually upset, because regardless of how I felt about the president, I thought it was really cool that I received something from the White House (though I'm sure it was an automated response thing).

 

These days however, I'd probably shred anything I got from the WH.

Very cool story. That sucks mom threw out the letter. Of course you wanted to know you got a response.

 

No it's not. They are a Catholic based school. These are the views of the founding of the school. There maybe differences of individuals at the school but not the school. They won't come out and specifically comment on it as they aren't stupid and will avoid it.

That's what I was trying to say.

 

They have those policies and behind them but they also represent the Catholic Church which is steadfastly against them. So which do you choose?

 

All I'm saying is that it's funny how they pick and choose what and where to believe and how to express it. I'll take a degree from a school that represents a view that I feel so strongly against that I am now going to protest it.

That's also what I was trying to say. I thought it was a logical argument myself.

[EvilMonkey]

Mike Pence would like to psychologically and physically torture people that I love. He wants to deny them basic rights. There's no bridge-building there until he gives up his bigotry.

 

Are there any viewpoints you'd consider to be unworthy of discussion and "bridge-building"? Do you condemn what John Brown was trying to do?

Mike Pence once supported the use of federal funding to treat people "seeking to change their sexual behavior." Pence never stated that he supported the use of electric shocks or "gay conversion" therapy.

[greg775]

I have no idea why people continue to take this guy's bait.

ptatc's response here, shows that I am not trying to bait anybody, but discuss issues that are interesting to me.

The response of the year IMO is his ...

 

"You do see the irony/contradiction here though, right?

 

You have students who want tolerance, yet they won't listen to a person speak.

 

You have students who feel so strongly against a person/topic that they are protesting and leaving. Yet they are accepting a degree from a school whose organization is against the same topic.

 

A student who could into Notre Dame could get into any number of quality schools who don't offend their beliefs as well.

 

I really don't care what they do it just seems contradictory."

 

Now my initial post drew an intellectually sound response like that. I don't know why you see my starting this post as "bait" of any kind. s***, it was a huge topic of interest in the news Sunday and it especially intrigued me being Catholic and having so many friends and relatives who attended ND and love ND.

 

[RockRaines]

Mike Pence once supported the use of federal funding to treat people "seeking to change their sexual behavior." Pence never stated that he supported the use of electric shocks or "gay conversion" therapy.

Congress should oppose any effort to put gay and lesbian relationships on an equal legal status with heterosexual marriage.

 

• Congress should oppose any effort to recognize homosexual’s as a "discreet and insular minority" entitled to the protection of anti-discrimination laws similar to those extended to women and ethnic minorities.

 

• Congress should support the reauthorization of the Ryan White Care Act only after completion of an audit to ensure that federal dollars were no longer being given to organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus. Resources should be directed toward those institutions which provide assistance to those seeking to change their sexual behavior.

 

You were referring to this? His statement on his website.

 

He also has supporters and doners from organizations that pursue and implement conversion therapy and he has allocated funds for those orgs.

Edited May 22, 2017 by RockRaines

[ptatc]

Christians have been "picking and choosing" pieces of that religion to follow for hundreds of years. Whats to stop them now?

I think that's funny too.

[EvilMonkey]

You were referring to that?

he isn't saying 'you are gay, OFF TO CONVERSION THERAPY!'. Like ss2k mentioned however, you have some liberals who want to send all sorts of people to reeducation classes or such things because they said some 'bad words'. One worker in a place says somethgin that can be deemed 'homophobic' and the whole place has to be 're educated' and sent to sensitivity training. No options.

[illinilaw08]

he isn't saying 'you are gay, OFF TO CONVERSION THERAPY!'. Like ss2k mentioned however, you have some liberals who want to send all sorts of people to reeducation classes or such things because they said some 'bad words'. One worker in a place says somethgin that can be deemed 'homophobic' and the whole place has to be 're educated' and sent to sensitivity training. No options.

 

Yep. Telling people not to use homophobic slurs and making them go to an hour long sensitivity training is totally the same thing as gay conversion therapy. The number of workers who have committed suicide because they had to forego using those slurs will forever stain the Progressive movement in the eyes of history.

[StrangeSox]

That's also generally discrimination lawsuit CYA because companies don't like being sued for being complicit because some jackass employee made inappropriate comments and management ignored it.

 

Besides, ss2k5 said "violence and attacks," which is a far cry from some workplace meeting you have once a year.

Edited May 22, 2017 by StrangeSox

[RockRaines]

he isn't saying 'you are gay, OFF TO CONVERSION THERAPY!'. Like ss2k mentioned however, you have some liberals who want to send all sorts of people to reeducation classes or such things because they said some 'bad words'. One worker in a place says somethgin that can be deemed 'homophobic' and the whole place has to be 're educated' and sent to sensitivity training. No options.

SO what you are saying is people are born assholes, and there is no use trying to convert them into reasonable people in a workplace? I can get behind that.

[Soxbadger]

A lot of these arguments are in the eyes of the beholder. Whether it accomplished something or didnt, is personal opinion. I dont really know if they accomplished something or didnt, but I dont think that is really relevant either.

 

Historically speaking the Church has taken many problematic stances with respect to science. Many of the most respected scientists in history had issues with the church while they were alive, Da Vinci, Galileo, Copernicus, etc. Our world would be much different if people had not defied the Church when they believed the Church was incorrect. So there is definitely a historical precedent for challenging the Church in order to help society to progress.

 

Was their graduation the place and time?

 

I dont know. But I think that walking out was perhaps the most non-intrusive way of expressing themselves.

 

As for the whole "we need to listen to our opponents", to an extent that is true. But there comes a time when you have heard everything that they have to say, and what else would listening further do? I have most Nazi arguments, do I need to sit and let a Nazi lecture me? How long do I need to listen?

 

Either way I think that walking out was as respectful as they could be.

[southsider2k5]

Mike Pence would like to psychologically and physically torture people that I love. He wants to deny them basic rights. There's no bridge-building there until he gives up his bigotry.

 

Are there any viewpoints you'd consider to be unworthy of discussion and "bridge-building"? Do you condemn what John Brown was trying to do?

 

I see you personally advocating for violence on a regular basis. Should everyone ignore you?

[caulfield12]

Let's imagine someone is Catholic.

 

The local diocese supports the GOP candidate who is adamantly for the death penalty...a "hawkish" advocate of stronger military/defense spending...and takes Pence-like positions on gay rights or women in the priesthood.

 

Does that make me a traitor to vote for the Dems because of everything Jesus said in the New Testament that was diametricallly opposed to those public policy positions which are largely being overlooked because of the singular pro life/abortion is murder stance?

 

Lots of contradictions there. Wouldn't Jesus be 100% against Trump's new budget priorities and strongly opposed to all the draconian cuts being planned for social programs, especially the ones directly affecting children? What about the directives to care for the poor, the sick or diseased, the meekest among society?

 

But but but....The Old Testament!!! An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Not he who is without sin may cast the first stone.

 

Greg, you should protest the Catholic Church because Pope Francis sounds more like Noam Chomsky or George Soros than Pope John Paul 2.

[StrangeSox]

I see you personally advocating for violence on a regular basis. Should everyone ignore you?

 

I will fully admit to having no moral opposition to a literal Nazi being punched in the face. Beyond that, and more to the point, "on a regular basis?" Definitely going to need you to provide links to back up that claim.

[caulfield12]

I see you personally advocating for violence on a regular basis. Should everyone ignore you?

 

When/where did he do that?