Hall of Fame criteria for pitchers now

[Y2Jimmy0]

1/3 of Keith Law's book is about Hall of Fame voting and it's really interesting. Brian Kenny has super interesting stuff in his too. Kevin Brown and Mike Mussina usually guys most debated.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Sal Perez and Molina are the only other catchers who are even close to being considered.

 

Mauer is the interesting case with his split career...but he's probably not going to make it either. If his career ended in 2010 like Puckett, he gets in but not anymore since he became an average 1B/DH.

 

Sal Perez, but not Buster Posey? Whatever you're smoking I'd like to have some.

[caulfield12]

In addition to Posey.

 

Already under the assumption he makes it barring another catastrophic injury. He might be having his best offensive season ever this year, although few are noticing since the Giants suck.

[lasttriptotulsa]

In addition to Posey.

 

Already under the assumption he makes it barring another catastrophic injury. He might be having his best offensive season ever this year, although few are noticing since the Giants suck.

 

What about Sal Perez even warrants mentioning his name alongside the Hall of Fame? Here's a hint. Nothing.

Edited May 25, 2017 by lasttriptotulsa

[Quin]

What about Sal Perez even warrants mentioning his name alongside the Hall of Fame? Here's a hint. Nothing.

 

Royals

[caulfield12]

What about Sal Perez even warrants mentioning his name alongside the Hall of Fame? Here's a hint. Nothing.

 

As of today, Molina is clearly #2 with Posey first (full-time catchers).

 

Who would be #3 of this current generation of full-time catchers over the last 5-6 years?

 

Personally, I'm not sure Perez will hold up physically to put up the offensive numbers he'd need, but he has the best combination of offense, defense and leadership after Posey. Molina, three years ago...I would have been 90% on board with him getting in.

 

Mauer is no longer a catcher. Victor Martinez can only partially be considered one, most will think of him as A DH primarily, like Edgar Martinez, and occasional 1B.

 

So who would you have third? Gary SANCHEZ? Carlos Santana?

 

 

Fwiw, Perez will be the only player from those Royals 2014-16 editions to merit more than a handful of HoF votes.

Wade Davis might actually be second, if he can continue pitching like this another 4-5 years, but doubtful his health holds up.

Edited May 25, 2017 by caulfield12

[bmags]

When someone like Posada gets knocked out 1st ballot i have a hard time seeing anyone other than Posey in, and honestly isn't that accurate? 3rd for me would be someone like McCann or Lucroy, but I couldn't vote for either if I was in BBWAA

[OmarComing25]

As of today, Molina is clearly #2 with Posey first (full-time catchers).

 

Who would be #3 of this current generation of full-time catchers over the last 5-6 years?

 

Personally, I'm not sure Perez will hold up physically to put up the offensive numbers he'd need, but he has the best combination of offense, defense and leadership after Posey. Molina, three years ago...I would have been 90% on board with him getting in.

 

Mauer is no longer a catcher. Victor Martinez can only partially be considered one, most will think of him as A DH primarily, like Edgar Martinez, and occasional 1B.

 

So who would you have third? Gary SANCHEZ? Carlos Santana?

 

 

Fwiw, Perez will be the only player from those Royals 2014-16 editions to merit more than a handful of HoF votes.

Wade Davis might actually be second, if he can continue pitching like this another 4-5 years, but doubtful his health holds up.

Perez has a career 98 wRC+ and much of his defense is nullified by his horrific pitch framing. He's one of the more overrated players in the game.

[lasttriptotulsa]

As of today, Molina is clearly #2 with Posey first (full-time catchers).

 

Who would be #3 of this current generation of full-time catchers over the last 5-6 years?

 

Personally, I'm not sure Perez will hold up physically to put up the offensive numbers he'd need, but he has the best combination of offense, defense and leadership after Posey. Molina, three years ago...I would have been 90% on board with him getting in.

 

Mauer is no longer a catcher. Victor Martinez can only partially be considered one, most will think of him as A DH primarily, like Edgar Martinez, and occasional 1B.

 

So who would you have third? Gary SANCHEZ? Carlos Santana?

 

Whether he's 3rd best now or not doesn't matter. Perez is clearly nowhere near being a HOFer. He's been a 2.5 per season fWAR player for his career with a 98 wRC+. That is basically an average MLBer, not a HOFer.

 

 

[caulfield12]

So the most compelling cases are McCann and Lucroy...

 

Neither of those guys are particularly great defensively. As I said, Perez would have to continue for at least another 4-5 years to merit consideration.

 

But McCann is already on the downside of his career. I'll give you Lucroy MIGHT be there (ahead of Perez), but then he doesn't have the postseason exploits like Posey and Perez, or Bumgarner for that matter.

 

In the end, none of those guys probably get in. I'm not even sure Mauer and Molina do, for that matter.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Whether he's 3rd best now or not doesn't matter. Perez is clearly nowhere near being a HOFer. He's been a 2.5 per season fWAR player for his career with a 98 wRC+. That is basically an average MLBer, not a HOFer.

 

Not when you consider his defensive value, premium position...it's like comparing Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Smith with McGwire, Sosa and Bonds. You need a fuller context of their peers.

 

I'm not even 100% convinced Ivan Rodriguez and Piazza belong with the steroids accusations. Biggio started out a catcher, but that wasn't his primary position. Those were the two best of the previous generation, although Piazza was 90% offense. I Rod was the unquestioned best combination of both in my lifetime, but it depends how much of it was real/natural.

Edited May 25, 2017 by caulfield12

[OmarComing25]

Not when you consider his defensive value, premium position...it's like comparing Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Smith with McGwire, Sosa and Bonds. You need a fuller context of their peers.

 

I'm not even 100% convinced Ivan Rodriguez and Piazza belong with the steroids accusations. Biggio started out a catcher, but that wasn't his primary position. Those were the two best of the previous generation, although Piazza was 90% offense. I Rod was the unquestioned best combination of both in my lifetime, but it depends how much of it was real/natural.

WAR already accounts for the positional value and context of his peers. And given that he's one of the worst framers in the league you could make the argument that WAR is overstating his value.

 

EDIT: You're also overstating his offensive value, even just looking at catchers. Since his rookie year Perez has been the 22nd best hitting catcher among those with enough PA to be qualified.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=17,d

Edited May 25, 2017 by OmarComing25

[chitownsportsfan]

WAR already accounts for the positional value and context of his peers. And given that he's one of the worst framers in the league you could make the argument that WAR is overstating his value.

 

EDIT: You're also overstating his offensive value, even just looking at catchers. Since his rookie year Perez has been the 22nd best hitting catcher among those with enough PA to be qualified.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=17,d

 

[southsider2k5]

As of today, Molina is clearly #2 with Posey first (full-time catchers).

 

Who would be #3 of this current generation of full-time catchers over the last 5-6 years?

 

Personally, I'm not sure Perez will hold up physically to put up the offensive numbers he'd need, but he has the best combination of offense, defense and leadership after Posey. Molina, three years ago...I would have been 90% on board with him getting in.

 

Mauer is no longer a catcher. Victor Martinez can only partially be considered one, most will think of him as A DH primarily, like Edgar Martinez, and occasional 1B.

 

So who would you have third? Gary SANCHEZ? Carlos Santana?

 

 

Fwiw, Perez will be the only player from those Royals 2014-16 editions to merit more than a handful of HoF votes.

Wade Davis might actually be second, if he can continue pitching like this another 4-5 years, but doubtful his health holds up.

#3? I mean that is kind of the point. When you are trying to stretch it to the three best catchers currently, it is probably going too far. We are talking about the best ever, and the best of a generation. It really shouldn't be a list. At a position like catcher, it should be 1, or maybe 2 guys.

[caulfield12]

WAR already accounts for the positional value and context of his peers. And given that he's one of the worst framers in the league you could make the argument that WAR is overstating his value.

 

EDIT: You're also overstating his offensive value, even just looking at catchers. Since his rookie year Perez has been the 22nd best hitting catcher among those with enough PA to be qualified.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...0&sort=17,d

 

No HoF voter has ever cited pitch framing, to my knowledge.

 

That list just proves almost nobody will make it other than Posey. He's the clear exceptional player. Nobody will consider Carlos Santana as a catcher, or John Jaso, for that matter.

 

Alex Avila, by your argument, should have received a multi-year contract, btw. And, of all the ones not named, I might have gone with Russell Martin, but there's not a strong case for any of them.

[greg775]

I think Kershaw is the only active starting pitcher who makes the Hall. Sabathia is borderline but I think he just misses it. Sale would need to be elite into his mid 30s and I don't see it happening. Felix was on track but he's been very mediocre his last few seasons and unless he returns to his previous form (unlikely) I don't see that happening either. If Bumgarner can nab a Cy Young or two I guess he has a shot, but no one else is in the conversation. At least until standards change to reflect the modern era.

This is hilarious and makes my point for me. They might as well close the doors of the Hall forever to pitchers. No more players are getting in. These starters aren't even going to sniff 200 wins. And the relievers won't be resilient enough.

[Quin]

This is hilarious and makes my point for me. They might as well close the doors of the Hall forever to pitchers. No more players are getting in. These starters aren't even going to sniff 200 wins. And the relievers won't be resilient enough.

 

lol no it doesn't

[FT35]

#3? I mean that is kind of the point. When you are trying to stretch it to the three best catchers currently, it is probably going too far. We are talking about the best ever, and the best of a generation. It really shouldn't be a list. At a position like catcher, it should be 1, or maybe 2 guys.

 

Exactly! I mean the number of Hall of Famers playing now is pretty low. Although you have a tremendous group of young players who are definitely HOF-worthy if they keep their career on track. You have Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Mike Trout, I think Buster Posey, Ichiro, Clayton Kershaw, Cody Asche. I think those guys are in for sure. Hanley Ramirez was there, but had too many injuries I think. Some of you might have him there.

 

Then you have Bryant & Harper who are the best of the young studs with guys like Machado, Lindor, Correa, Corey Seager, Betts, Bogaerts, Altuve, Arenado(?) and Goldschmidt. Guys like that have a strong chance of getting into that HOF conversation with little to no improvement to their game--just by playing and staying healthy. There may be more...There's no set number--just the best of the best. Certainly a bright future for baseball with the young talent coming in.

Edited May 26, 2017 by FT35

[caulfield12]

Exactly! I mean the number of Hall of Famers playing now is pretty low. Although you have a tremendous group of young players who are definitely HOF-worthy if they keep their career on track. You have Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Mike Trout, I think Buster Posey, Ichiro, Clayton Kershaw, Cody Asche. I think those guys are in for sure. Hanley Ramirez was there, but had too many injuries I think. Some of you might have him there.

 

Then you have Bryant & Harper who are the best of the young studs with guys like Machado, Lindor, Correa, Corey Seager, Betts, Bogaerts, Altuve, Arenado(?) and Goldschmidt. Guys like that have a strong chance of getting into that HOF conversation with little to no improvement to their game--just by playing and staying healthy. There may be more...There's no set number--just the best of the best. Certainly a bright future for baseball with the young talent coming in.

 

C'mon, no Puig or Cespedes? Abreu? L. Robert? That's some pretty strong anti-Cuban bias there. Avi or Leury Garcia?

 

Bellinger and Judge are looking great so far too, but way too early. I notice you left out Kris Bryant. Intentional? Rizzo? Lots of good choices...F. Freeman and a certain Reds' 1B named Votto come to mind as well. Sano if he keeps raking, but his defense sucks. Benintendi. Gary Sanchez. So much young talent.

 

Mauer, as discussed earlier, and Molina. Posey. Sale. Maybe Lester. Kimbrel. K-Rod probably.

Edited May 26, 2017 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Exactly! I mean the number of Hall of Famers playing now is pretty low. Although you have a tremendous group of young players who are definitely HOF-worthy if they keep their career on track. You have Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Robinson Cano, Mike Trout, I think Buster Posey, Ichiro, Clayton Kershaw, Cody Asche. I think those guys are in for sure. Hanley Ramirez was there, but had too many injuries I think. Some of you might have him there.

 

Then you have Bryant & Harper who are the best of the young studs with guys like Machado, Lindor, Correa, Corey Seager, Betts, Bogaerts, Altuve, Arenado(?) and Goldschmidt. Guys like that have a strong chance of getting into that HOF conversation with little to no improvement to their game--just by playing and staying healthy. There may be more...There's no set number--just the best of the best. Certainly a bright future for baseball with the young talent coming in.

 

Bonus points for slipping in Cody.

[FT35]

C'mon, no Puig or Cespedes? Abreu? L. Robert? That's some pretty strong anti-Cuban bias there. Avi or Leury Garcia?

 

Bellinger and Judge are looking great so far too, but way too early. I notice you left out Kris Bryant. Intentional? Rizzo? Lots of good choices...F. Freeman and a certain Reds' 1B named Votto come to mind as well. Sano if he keeps raking, but his defense sucks. Benintendi. Gary Sanchez. So much young talent.

 

Mauer, as discussed earlier, and Molina. Posey. Sale. Maybe Lester. Kimbrel. K-Rod probably.

 

Bryant's there with Harper. I think those 2 are a tick above the others.

[caulfield12]

Bryant's there with Harper. I think those 2 are a tick above the others.

 

 

Oops. Hard to think of a Trout as a veteran at 26 when he still hasn't reached his prime in late 20's.

Edited May 26, 2017 by caulfield12

[FT35]

Oops. Hard to think of a Trout as a veteran at 26 when he still hasn't reached his prime in late 20's.

 

It sure is...I think people overuse the term "generational talent." Not every great young player is even close to a generational talent. I think we're seeing the true definition of the word with Mike Trout--he's the best of the very best. Pujols was there in his prime--Miguel's bat was always 1b behind Pujols. No one else is in Trout's league...THAT is what makes him a generational talent. We're lucky to witness. I'm hoping my next Sox game will be vs. the Angels--I gotta see him play.

[FT35]

C'mon, no Puig or Cespedes? Abreu? L. Robert? That's some pretty strong anti-Cuban bias there. Avi or Leury Garcia?

 

Bellinger and Judge are looking great so far too, but way too early. I notice you left out Kris Bryant. Intentional? Rizzo? Lots of good choices...F. Freeman and a certain Reds' 1B named Votto come to mind as well. Sano if he keeps raking, but his defense sucks. Benintendi. Gary Sanchez. So much young talent.

 

Mauer, as discussed earlier, and Molina. Posey. Sale. Maybe Lester. Kimbrel. K-Rod probably.

 

BTW I left Rizzo off intentionally. The power numbers are there, but a .266 career hitter will have a tough case to make--especially as a first baseman. Votto is a good one--he's kind of Paul Konerko plus an MVP minus a ring. Sale could gain steam with a few more dominating years and a ring or 2--still a lot to accomplish. Not that rings have much barring on the HOF--just being with Boston and winning a couple couldn't hurt his case.

Edited May 26, 2017 by FT35

[greg775]

BTW I left Rizzo off intentionally. The power numbers are there, but a .266 career hitter will have a tough case to make--especially as a first baseman. Votto is a good one--he's kind of Paul Konerko plus an MVP minus a ring. Sale could gain steam with a few more dominating years and a ring or 2--still a lot to accomplish. Not that rings have much barring on the HOF--just being with Boston and winning a couple couldn't hurt his case.

Who cares about batting average? The sabes people don't give a flip about BA.