Just Sayin: 17-13 Against The Division

[southsider2k5]

After the draft, hopefully there will be some activity on our rental starters (Gonzalez, Holland) and maybe some of the relievers.

 

I bet the market is more fluid for the relievers, as the prices won't be as high.

[shago]

Just sayin we want to rebuild, f this year. You kidding?

[Jerksticks]

Just sayin we want to rebuild, f this year. You kidding?

I don't think anybody is arguing to go for it this year. The consensus is focusing long term, spoken from the GM himself. Not sure what you are arguing here brother

[shago]

I don't think anybody is arguing to go for it this year. The consensus is focusing long term, spoken from the GM himself. Not sure what you are arguing here brother

Like in any sport, worse you do, better the draft. Why does anyone want this team to win right now? Absolutely idiotic, hence the reply to the thread.... Cubs rebuild, they sucked, that's good...........

[Leonard Zelig]

Like in any sport, worse you do, better the draft. Why does anyone want this team to win right now? Absolutely idiotic, hence the reply to the thread.... Cubs rebuild, they sucked, that's good...........

It really doesn't matter what anybody wants, the team is going to do what it's going to do. No need for name calling. I'm pretty sure the players want to win are they idiots?

[caulfield12]

Moved up to 9th pick.

 

Progress.

[southsider2k5]

Like in any sport, worse you do, better the draft. Why does anyone want this team to win right now? Absolutely idiotic, hence the reply to the thread.... Cubs rebuild, they sucked, that's good...........

 

Individual players should never be focused on playing badly.

[Jerksticks]

The whole point of the thread is not to go for it but that our rebuild is super far along, which is super enviable. Good players are about to come up from AAA. Celebrate!

[daggins]

The whole point of the thread is not to go for it but that our rebuild is super far along, which is super enviable. Good players are about to come up from AAA. Celebrate!

 

It's not super far along at all, and the only useful pieces ready to move up are Rey Lopez, Moncada and Delmonico. Delmonico looks like more of a role player, Lopez a 3-4 if he pans out, and Moncada, well, who knows. That's one potential star and two useful pieces. Add that to what is already in place and you have what, a 75 win team? This process is just starting.

[GreenSox]

The whole point of the thread is not to go for it but that our rebuild is super far along, which is super enviable. Good players are about to come up from AAA. Celebrate!

The Sox have traded 3 players; the tear-down hasn't even finished.

The one area in which the rebuild is ahead of schedule is if Sanchez, Davidson and L Garcia are keepers....certainly so far so good, and their performance would fit on a competitive team.

Edited June 3, 2017 by GreenSox

[greg775]

I maintain that there is no reason for us to root for losses, the losses will come.

That is an excellent sentence by bmags. He's right. I fully endorse that statement. Why root for losses? They are coming in droves and will continue to come in bunches.

 

Like in any sport, worse you do, better the draft. Why does anyone want this team to win right now? Absolutely idiotic, hence the reply to the thread.... Cubs rebuild, they sucked, that's good...........

Uh, you asked the question, do you really want my answer? I'll spare everybody my answer just put in the code words (Fulmer, Alvarez, Trout, Rodon), but I should print it again since you called my stance "idiotic." I'll conclude by saying, "Just.Win.Baby!"

Edited June 3, 2017 by greg775

[Bananarchy]

That is an excellent sentence by bmags. He's right. I fully endorse that statement. Why root for losses? They are coming in droves and will continue to come in bunches.

Because losses position the White Sox to situate themselves close to winning a championship, which is the goal.

[witesoxfan]

Because losses position the White Sox to situate themselves close to winning a championship, which is the goal.

 

I guess I'm one who doesn't understand the need to root for losses. To me, my mentality is more along the lines of being happy when they win and not caring when they lose. I will never be happy when the White Sox lose, even if it's for the greater good.

 

I mean, seriously, if the White Sox ended up going 96-66 this year, winning the division, and storming through the playoffs, would the reaction here really be "well they should have lost, this is stupid"?

[jenksycat]

I guess I'm one who doesn't understand the need to root for losses. To me, my mentality is more along the lines of being happy when they win and not caring when they lose. I will never be happy when the White Sox lose, even if it's for the greater good.

 

I mean, seriously, if the White Sox ended up going 96-66 this year, winning the division, and storming through the playoffs, would the reaction here really be "well they should have lost, this is stupid"?

 

Nobody is going to be upset at a 96 win team, which isn't in any way realistic and no sane person's argument. If they're going to miss the playoffs anyway, win 60 games and get the highest possible pick you can so you don't miss the top guy on your board by 2 meaningless wins.

[Bananarchy]

I guess I'm one who doesn't understand the need to root for losses. To me, my mentality is more along the lines of being happy when they win and not caring when they lose. I will never be happy when the White Sox lose, even if it's for the greater good.

 

I mean, seriously, if the White Sox ended up going 96-66 this year, winning the division, and storming through the playoffs, would the reaction here really be "well they should have lost, this is stupid"?

Unless this team wins a World Series, the rebuild alternative is better. The thing we know right now is that the team, as constructed, will not consistently be a contender. The parts too old and inconsistent. The young talent is good, but to add a stud high draft pick is arguably more valuable for this organization than a wild card game loss, a third place finish, or faux contention in July.

 

If you're going to lose, lose. I have no problem rooting for the White Sox through thick and thin and I accept that this is what's best for the organization.

[witesoxfan]

Nobody is going to be upset at a 96 win team, which isn't in any way realistic and no sane person's argument. If they're going to miss the playoffs anyway, win 60 games and get the highest possible pick you can so you don't miss the top guy on your board by 2 meaningless wins.

 

See, but they are going to end up with a bad record. I think this is pretty much a foregone conclusion. To me, it's just easier to shrug off the losses at this point.

 

Actively rooting for losses is backwards logic. "Runners on first and second for Abreu, let's hope he grounds into a double play." Like, what? That's the way I see people watching the game when they are hoping for the Sox to lose.

 

If they end up with the 3rd pick or the 5th pick instead of the 1st, it doesn't really matter. From 2011 to 2015, the Cubs picked in the top 5 twice, still picked in the top 10 every year, and ended up with Baez, Almora, Bryant, Schwarber, and Happ. I don't think they ever went full tank trying to win 60 games, they just didn't have very good teams so they ended up at the bottom. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to portray - the Sox are going to lose a lot of games, so you may as well hope for wins and be grateful when they do, because it's not going to happen a lot.

 

I mean, if that's what people are hoping for, then by all means, do it. I can't stop you. I just think it's a bit wrong.

[southsider2k5]

See, but they are going to end up with a bad record. I think this is pretty much a foregone conclusion. To me, it's just easier to shrug off the losses at this point.

 

Actively rooting for losses is backwards logic. "Runners on first and second for Abreu, let's hope he grounds into a double play." Like, what? That's the way I see people watching the game when they are hoping for the Sox to lose.

 

If they end up with the 3rd pick or the 5th pick instead of the 1st, it doesn't really matter. From 2011 to 2015, the Cubs picked in the top 5 twice, still picked in the top 10 every year, and ended up with Baez, Almora, Bryant, Schwarber, and Happ. I don't think they ever went full tank trying to win 60 games, they just didn't have very good teams so they ended up at the bottom. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to portray - the Sox are going to lose a lot of games, so you may as well hope for wins and be grateful when they do, because it's not going to happen a lot.

 

I mean, if that's what people are hoping for, then by all means, do it. I can't stop you. I just think it's a bit wrong.

 

And here is the thing. If the Sox end up winning 75 games, some really good things happened. It means guys like Leury and Avi probably continued their breakout years, and probably means that some of our pitching ended up getting some pretty good values too. Having multiple guys who had breakout seasons is worth MUCH more than draft position. An All-Star level Avi Garcia is worth his weight in prospects.

[greg775]

Because losses position the White Sox to situate themselves close to winning a championship, which is the goal.

Through a draft pick? Give me a break. Alvarez was picked SECOND; where was Trout picked? Beckham? Just be smart and pick the right guy. Fulmer? Great pick.

 

If they end up with the 3rd pick or the 5th pick instead of the 1st, it doesn't really matter.

Exactly. I can't believe there are Sox fans who want the team to lose every game it can for six solid months. It's ridiculous. This team is going to lose so many games it will make your head spin. You don't have to root for that, it's going to happen. But as far as the draft, geez, if you have a s*** record you are going to get a good pick. Then it's up to your scouts to pick a good player. Like you said it matters not whether you get the third pick or the 13th. You ought to be able to get a star. Oh wait, there are no guarantees in baseball.

Also, you are counting on a front office that drafted Rodon and Fulmer high, an organization always in love with pitchers. You guys give Hahn too much credit. Give me free agency and sign some proven players to go with the stars we already have. And the draft picks we get naturally for sucking. No need to root for losses; Sox will lose 90 plus this season in their sleep, still could lose 95 or more.

Edited June 4, 2017 by greg775

[Bananarchy]

Through a draft pick? Give me a break. Alvarez was picked SECOND; where was Trout picked? Beckham? Just be smart and pick the right guy. Fulmer? Great pick.

You continue to astound me with how little you know. The obvious sits right in front of you, and yet you completely ignore it and pretend you have any clue. Yet you lack any clue.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Sox-35th

[greg775]

You continue to astound me with how little you know. The obvious sits right in front of you, and yet you completely ignore it and pretend you have any clue. Yet you lack any clue.

Thanks for the insults. I personally would rather get the 30th pick than EVER root for the Sox to lose. So there. I understand your concept. I think it's ridiculous. This team will lose 90 plus games. I'd rather go .500 than lose 90 plus games. Why? I put little stock in the baseball draft. I feel you can get a helluva good pick if your team had a lousy record. I don't have to root for that record. And guess what? I don't trust my front office to take a great player at No. 5 overall vs. No. 13. No I don't. With their track record it'd be some college pitcher who won't make the adjustment. Now kudos for drafting Tim Anderson and some of the others. But I don't need the No. 3 pick; give me a winning record and No. 14 pick.

[tray]

The tanking thing never made sense to me for several reasons

1. No guarantee that you will end up with a top 3 Draft pick.

2. No guarantee that any player selected becomes an All Star quality player.

3. No guarantee that the 5th overall pick becomes a better player than a 12th overall pick.

4. It demoralizes the current team and destroys the winning attitude that is so important to cultivate.

5. It demoralizes the fan base.

6. It reduces attendance which in turn lessens the financial ability of the team to acquire players.

7. It goes against everything we are taught about competing in sports no matter who your opposition is.

 

I like the progress with Avi G, Leury G, Davidson and Yolmar. Omar and Kevan Snith have been decent.

Sox need to start bringing up some pitching. Maybe Giolito, Fulmer, Burdi, Reynaldo and maybe even Kopech.

We have to stop the bludgeonings. 15-5, 10-1...

 

 

 

[greg775]

The tanking thing never made sense to me for several reasons

1. No guarantee that you will end up with a top 3 Draft pick.

2. No guarantee that any player selected becomes an All Star quality player.

3. No guarantee that the 5th overall pick becomes a better player than a 12th overall pick.

4. It demoralizes the current team and destroys the winning attitude that is so important to cultivate.

5. It demoralizes the fan base.

6. It reduces attendance which in turn lessens the financial ability of the team to acquire players.

7. It goes against everything we are taught about competing in sports no matter who your opposition is.

 

I like the progress with Avi G, Leury G, Davidson and Yolmar. Omar and Kevan Snith have been decent.

Sox need to start bringing up some pitching. Maybe Giolito, Fulmer, Burdi, Reynaldo and maybe even Kopech.

We have to stop the bludgeonings. 15-5, 10-1...

Great post. I endorse this post heavily.

[Soha]

See, but they are going to end up with a bad record. I think this is pretty much a foregone conclusion. To me, it's just easier to shrug off the losses at this point.

 

Actively rooting for losses is backwards logic. "Runners on first and second for Abreu, let's hope he grounds into a double play." Like, what? That's the way I see people watching the game when they are hoping for the Sox to lose.

 

If they end up with the 3rd pick or the 5th pick instead of the 1st, it doesn't really matter. From 2011 to 2015, the Cubs picked in the top 5 twice, still picked in the top 10 every year, and ended up with Baez, Almora, Bryant, Schwarber, and Happ. I don't think they ever went full tank trying to win 60 games, they just didn't have very good teams so they ended up at the bottom. That's pretty much the point I'm trying to portray - the Sox are going to lose a lot of games, so you may as well hope for wins and be grateful when they do, because it's not going to happen a lot.

 

I mean, if that's what people are hoping for, then by all means, do it. I can't stop you. I just think it's a bit wrong.

 

You don't think the Cubs ever went full tank? Come on, who are we kidding here? They were in bigger tank mode than the Sox have been so far in this rebuild. They made zero effort to actually be competitive in the first few years of the Theo regime. Their 101 tanked losses in 2012 were rewarded with a guy named Kris Bryant.

 

And I think your point of the Cubs 5 top 10 picks illustrates exactly how important tanking can be. Because Kris Bryant is the only one of those 5 guys that has established himself as more than a role player. And he was taken with the 2nd pick in the draft. The other guys were taken 4th, 6th, 9th and 9th...and none have shown to be worth those picks at this point (granted Happ hasn't had a chance to prove it one way or another yet). Maybe they will eventually. Maybe they won't. Or maybe they are worth their picks and it just illustrates how much worse picking 4th, 6th or 9th is compared to 2nd.

 

Finally - if the Sox had 3 more losses in 2014, they would have drafted Andrew Benintendi instead of Carson Fulmer. That sure would have been nice, eh?

[Soha]

Thanks for the insults. I personally would rather get the 30th pick than EVER root for the Sox to lose. So there. I understand your concept. I think it's ridiculous. This team will lose 90 plus games. I'd rather go .500 than lose 90 plus games. Why? I put little stock in the baseball draft. I feel you can get a helluva good pick if your team had a lousy record. I don't have to root for that record. And guess what? I don't trust my front office to take a great player at No. 5 overall vs. No. 13. No I don't. With their track record it'd be some college pitcher who won't make the adjustment. Now kudos for drafting Tim Anderson and some of the others. But I don't need the No. 3 pick; give me a winning record and No. 14 pick.

 

Obviously every one of us would rather pick 30th than tank. The whole point is to win a World Series. The pro tank people are tired of running in quicksand and want to see some actual progress towards a championship. It's not a hard concept to get.

[Soha]

The tanking thing never made sense to me for several reasons

1. No guarantee that you will end up with a top 3 Draft pick.

2. No guarantee that any player selected becomes an All Star quality player.

3. No guarantee that the 5th overall pick becomes a better player than a 12th overall pick.

4. It demoralizes the current team and destroys the winning attitude that is so important to cultivate.

5. It demoralizes the fan base.

6. It reduces attendance which in turn lessens the financial ability of the team to acquire players.

7. It goes against everything we are taught about competing in sports no matter who your opposition is.

 

I like the progress with Avi G, Leury G, Davidson and Yolmar. Omar and Kevan Snith have been decent.

Sox need to start bringing up some pitching. Maybe Giolito, Fulmer, Burdi, Reynaldo and maybe even Kopech.

We have to stop the bludgeonings. 15-5, 10-1...

 

1) Nobody said there were guarantees. It's just about maximizing your chances and possibilities.

2) Same answer

3) Again, nobody said there were guarantees. History certainly has shown that the top picks tend to have a better chance at success than middle picks.

4) See I think it's the complete opposite. Do you not see more life in this team this year, than we've seen in many years?

5) I have not seen this fanbase as excited and energized in at least 10 years. I think the acquisition of a Luis Robert is enough to keep us all excited through a tough summer.

6) Attendance isn't down yet. It might be at some point and they probably are expecting it. The idea is that if you build this thing correctly, that will be more than made up for when this team is highly competitive in a few years.

7) Professional sports leagues all encourage tanking and it's unfortunate. In all major US sports, the worst place to be is stuck in mediocrity. You aren't good enough to compete for the playoffs or championships, yet you aren't bad enough to draft top talents to make yourself better. It's an ugly place to be, and a place the White Sox have spent most of the last 10 years in (for that matter, the Bears have spent many years there as well). If you look across the 4 sports, you see some common themes. Guys like Lebron James, Connor McDavid, Kris Bryant...they were funneled to teams who were atrocious. Do I wish sports would change the system to discourage tanking? Absolutely. Give all non playoff teams equal lottery chances at top picks. But until they do that, you're going to have people rightly wanting to get bad, to get good.

 

Finally - the part of your post I disagree with the most is wanting to bring up guys like Giolito, Kopech, Burdi to stop the bludgeonings...so, we are going to ruin these guys' development because our big league team sucks? Seriously?

Edited June 4, 2017 by Soha