Just Sayin: 17-13 Against The Division

[SCCWS]

The Sox have traded 3 players; the tear-down hasn't even finished.

The one area in which the rebuild is ahead of schedule is if Sanchez, Davidson and L Garcia are keepers....certainly so far so good, and their performance would fit on a competitive team.

 

Not sure I totally agree with you. I think Sanchez is a keeper but Moncada will eventually push him off 2nd. Maybe he becomes the utility player. But that might mean Leury will not have a role. So I think one of two has a place in the future as a utility player. Davidson has shown a good power bat but his 40%+ SO rate is way too high. Hopefully over the rest of the season that drops. Avi has become a major plus and solves one OF position if he continues. Anderson's bat is much better than last year so that is a positive.

 

[caulfield12]

Except Avi Garcia is only under control through 2019, right?

[GreenSox]

Not sure I totally agree with you. I think Sanchez is a keeper but Moncada will eventually push him off 2nd. Maybe he becomes the utility player. But that might mean Leury will not have a role. So I think one of two has a place in the future as a utility player. Davidson has shown a good power bat but his 40%+ SO rate is way too high. Hopefully over the rest of the season that drops. Avi has become a major plus and solves one OF position if he continues. Anderson's bat is much better than last year so that is a positive.

I did say IF. And IF the talent is abundant, it will sort itself out.

If Yolmer keeps this up, perhaps it will be Moncada who needs to move - to the outfield.

Anyway, the chances of any individual Sanchez, L Garcia et al sticking is greater than the chances of most individual prospects (with the inherent flame out rate of prospects) becoming contributors; none were expected, so it's all a plus.

Edited June 4, 2017 by GreenSox

[Panerista]

Great post. I endorse this post heavily.

No better way to know you're wrong than get the greg approval. If greg approves, you know you're on the wrong track.

 

It's amazing people still discount the idea of tanking and push positives of developing non-talents. This team is not good and most of the players on this team are not good. There's no route with this "core" of players to a championship. They're 6 games under and sinking.

 

You don't think the Cubs ever went full tank? Come on, who are we kidding here? They were in bigger tank mode than the Sox have been so far in this rebuild. They made zero effort to actually be competitive in the first few years of the Theo regime. Their 101 tanked losses in 2012 were rewarded with a guy named Kris Bryant.

 

Lol. This. The Cubs won a grand total of 61 games in 2012.

 

Someone tell me it wasn't worth it for the north siders. They probably had idiot fans saying things like "Darwin Barney has been solid the last couple of seasons. We shouldn't tank! He's good enough to go for it now."

Edited June 4, 2017 by Sox-35th

[SCCWS]

I did say IF. And IF the talent is abundant, it will sort itself out.

If Yolmer keeps this up, perhaps it will be Moncada who needs to move - to the outfield.

Anyway, the chances of any individual Sanchez, L Garcia et al sticking is greater than the chances of most individual prospects (with the inherent flame out rate of prospects) becoming contributors; none were expected, so it's all a plus.

 

I doubt Moncada moves in the near future. The Red Sox tried him at 3B and it failed. Now 3rd and outfield are different, but I think the Sox will eventually bring him up at 2nd and leave him there till he really settles in offensively and defensively. Maybe in a couple of years he moves to outfield if the need arises. Maybe Yolmer moves to 3rd if he keeps hitting and he can handle the throws.

[witesoxfan]

You don't think the Cubs ever went full tank? Come on, who are we kidding here? They were in bigger tank mode than the Sox have been so far in this rebuild. They made zero effort to actually be competitive in the first few years of the Theo regime. Their 101 tanked losses in 2012 were rewarded with a guy named Kris Bryant.

 

And I think your point of the Cubs 5 top 10 picks illustrates exactly how important tanking can be. Because Kris Bryant is the only one of those 5 guys that has established himself as more than a role player. And he was taken with the 2nd pick in the draft. The other guys were taken 4th, 6th, 9th and 9th...and none have shown to be worth those picks at this point (granted Happ hasn't had a chance to prove it one way or another yet). Maybe they will eventually. Maybe they won't. Or maybe they are worth their picks and it just illustrates how much worse picking 4th, 6th or 9th is compared to 2nd.

 

Finally - if the Sox had 3 more losses in 2014, they would have drafted Andrew Benintendi instead of Carson Fulmer. That sure would have been nice, eh?

 

Have you looked at the 2012 Cubs team? There are some pretty good players on that team. Maybe suggesting that they didn't full tank is incorrect, but they didn't have a good team regardless. They didn't gut their roster like the 1997 Marlins did or didn't have a team so devoid of talent that they couldn't win games like the 2003 Tigers.

 

Frankly, your position regarding the draft position strengthens my argument. Where you end up really doesn't matter because the MLB draft is a crapshoot any way you slice it up. It's incredibly important to bring in the necessary talent, but that talent doesn't always work out. The best thing to do is to acquire as many young assets as you can and weed them out from there.

 

Finally, if the Sox had taken Ian Happ instead of Carson Fulmer, I don't think you'd be asking that question. Happ went 1 pick after Fulmer. And it's not like the books is closed on Carson Fulmer yet either.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Have you looked at the 2012 Cubs team? There are some pretty good players on that team. Maybe suggesting that they didn't full tank is incorrect, but they didn't have a good team regardless. They didn't gut their roster like the 1997 Marlins did or didn't have a team so devoid of talent that they couldn't win games like the 2003 Tigers.

 

Frankly, your position regarding the draft position strengthens my argument. Where you end up really doesn't matter because the MLB draft is a crapshoot any way you slice it up. It's incredibly important to bring in the necessary talent, but that talent doesn't always work out. The best thing to do is to acquire as many young assets as you can and weed them out from there.

 

Finally, if the Sox had taken Ian Happ instead of Carson Fulmer, I don't think you'd be asking that question. Happ went 1 pick after Fulmer. And it's not like the books is closed on Carson Fulmer yet either.

 

 

I disagree with the premise that it doesn't matter where you pick. People that say that don't follow and understand how the draft works (In this thread, Greg is a prime example). Could Nick Hostetler draft someone at 8 that ends up as the best player in the draft? Sure. That's not really the point though. If you are going to be bad anyway and don't really have any long-term pieces playing on your major league roster, it's imperative to lose as many games as possible. The bonus pools are extremely important. The teams picking in the top 3 usually have around $12 million to spend (Note: Those teams receive competitive balance selections and Sox don't). The White Sox this year have $7, 921,400 to spend on the draft. If they pick in the top 5 next year, they'l likely have around $10 million to spend. It's a huge difference and it allows you to save money with some picks and add more quality throughout the draft. You want the highest picks possible because with those picks comes the ability to spend more money. I'm sorry, I don't give a s*** if Mike Pelfrey and Miguel Gonzalez get rocked every time they start. It doesn't matter. I'd like Anderson to do well. Abreu will be fine. I hope Q is good enough to bring back a solid return. The rest though? There aren't many guys on this team that matter and it's super important for them to pick really high next year. The good thing about this is Rick Hahn understands this to be true and you can always get worse.

[jenksycat]

Have you looked at the 2012 Cubs team? There are some pretty good players on that team. Maybe suggesting that they didn't full tank is incorrect, but they didn't have a good team regardless. They didn't gut their roster like the 1997 Marlins did or didn't have a team so devoid of talent that they couldn't win games like the 2003 Tigers.

 

Frankly, your position regarding the draft position strengthens my argument. Where you end up really doesn't matter because the MLB draft is a crapshoot any way you slice it up. It's incredibly important to bring in the necessary talent, but that talent doesn't always work out. The best thing to do is to acquire as many young assets as you can and weed them out from there.

 

Finally, if the Sox had taken Ian Happ instead of Carson Fulmer, I don't think you'd be asking that question. Happ went 1 pick after Fulmer. And it's not like the books is closed on Carson Fulmer yet either.

 

And Benintendi went 1 pick before Fulmer. 2 meaningless wins on a s*** team let them slide 1 spot and miss a guy higher on their board.

[caulfield12]

Or just a win or two was the difference between Rodon and Schwarber...granted, the results of 2015-16 will make that an excellent pick from a Cubs' historical perspective, even if Schwarber is worse than Avi Garcia from here on out.

Edited June 6, 2017 by caulfield12

[jenksycat]

Or just a win or two was the difference between Rodon and Schwarber...granted, the results of 2015-16 will make that an excellent pick from a Cubs' historical perspective, even if Schwarber is worse than Avi Garcia from here on out.

 

Doesn't matter. Higher pick = better chance you get "your guy" + more pool money to spend on later picks.

 

People seem to confuse tanking with wanting the team hit .150 with a 8 ERA. I want our potential future pieces to do well, I want our trade pieces to do well enough and turn into prospects, and I want them to lose 162 games so we can pick whoever we want in 2018. This franchise hasn't had a direction in a decade and seems to have finally accepted a rebuild and is off to a great start so lets keep it rolling. Higher picks = faster rebuild time.

[SoxAce]

Or just a win or two was the difference between Rodon and Schwarber...granted, the results of 2015-16 will make that an excellent pick from a Cubs' historical perspective, even if Schwarber is worse than Avi Garcia from here on out.

 

What's up with you and your Rodon hate?

[witesoxfan]

And Benintendi went 1 pick before Fulmer. 2 meaningless wins on a s*** team let them slide 1 spot and miss a guy higher on their board.

 

And the White Sox still probably would have picked Fulmer. You guys keep mentioning this anecdote, but the Sox would have had to have picked Benintendi. This is why scouting is that much more important than where you actually pick.

[Bob Sacamano]

What's up with you and your Rodon hate?

 

? He didn't appear to throw any shade at Rodon in that post.

[iamshack]

And the White Sox still probably would have picked Fulmer. You guys keep mentioning this anecdote, but the Sox would have had to have picked Benintendi. This is why scouting is that much more important than where you actually pick.

Rabbit mentioned yesterday that the Sox were on Benintendi...that Fulmer was not Plan A.

[chitownsportsfan]

No team has been able to consistently "out draft the draft". That doesn't mean that scouting isn't important but that scouting is only a component of any success a team has in the draft. I'd say as far as the variables go it's probably 1) draft position, 2) player development, 3) scouting. With player dev and scouting interacting with each other (if your player development team thinks the hitch in the swing the scout worries about can be overcome...) and in theory helping each other.

 

I think it's fairly obvious the Sox have much better player development and scouting with pitchers. That said, recently some position players have developed nicely, including TA and Yolmer.

 

I always post that expected WAR chart from the draft and the big takeway is how big a difference there is in expected WAR from say pick #2 to pick #7, but how little there is say in pick #12 and pick #19. If you're going to suck for a star in the draft, you want to really suck and get into the top 3. At that point you almost can't help but screw it up.

[Soha]

And the White Sox still probably would have picked Fulmer. You guys keep mentioning this anecdote, but the Sox would have had to have picked Benintendi. This is why scouting is that much more important than where you actually pick.

 

Isn't it well known the Sox were enamored with Benintendi and were praying that he would fall to them?

 

Now someone brought up Schwarber in relation to Rodon. That one I doubt they would have taken if they were in the Cubs slot at #4. I hadn't heard any links of the Sox and Schwarber and he certainly was expected to be picked lower in the first round.

[southsider2k5]

Isn't it well known the Sox were enamored with Benintendi and were praying that he would fall to them?

 

Now someone brought up Schwarber in relation to Rodon. That one I doubt they would have taken if they were in the Cubs slot at #4. I hadn't heard any links of the Sox and Schwarber and he certainly was expected to be picked lower in the first round.

 

After Rodon, Aaron Nola was the person next most connected to the White Sox.`

[Dick Allen]

Yeah Rodon sucks. Why didn't they draft a .210 hitting strike out machine who can't play defense? Nice job KW and RH.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think Caulfield was actually arguing in favor of Rodon wasn't he?

[southsider2k5]

I think Caulfield was actually arguing in favor of Rodon wasn't he?

 

I will be honest, most of the time I have no idea what he is arguing.

[fathom]

Despite what they say about Schwarber, the Cubs absolutely wanted Rodon. There were rumors before the draft that Boras was trying to get the top teams to pass on Rodon so he could go #4

[greg775]

Obviously every one of us would rather pick 30th than tank. The whole point is to win a World Series. The pro tank people are tired of running in quicksand and want to see some actual progress towards a championship. It's not a hard concept to get.

A lot of people would rather tank than pick 29th.

 

I want them to lose 162 games so we can pick whoever we want in 2018.

Don't you realize you draftniks are falling for the biggest cliche in sports: Only caring about the future. Wanting the quarterback who never plays to take over. The unknown is always more mysterious and better than the known. You want the best possible draftee. You are all assuming your front office will take the right guy, sign the right guy, develop the right guy.

Give me a winning team now. Give me all wins NOW. I'll take as many wins as we can get because a.) I don't care about the draft one iota. Whatever player we get, fine, I'll read the hype on him one day and hope to see him in the big leagues. In the meantime, give me wins now and give me free agents. The money the team spends? They should spend a TON considering what they are charging fans for food, drink and tickets and parking. I am much less front office friendly than most of you who trust our team to pick the right guy. There's always an excuse. Gee if the team on the field would have lost 2 more games we wouldn't have taken Rodon we'd have had Benetendi!!! Why didn't the team just lose 10 more that year?" Man I'm glad I'll never think that way. I want wins each night they take the field. Even this pathetic team. Give me a win tonight.

[Kyyle23]

A lot of people would rather tank than pick 29th.

 

 

Don't you realize you draftniks are falling for the biggest cliche in sports: Only caring about the future. Wanting the quarterback who never plays to take over. The unknown is always more mysterious and better than the known. You want the best possible draftee. You are all assuming your front office will take the right guy, sign the right guy, develop the right guy.

Give me a winning team now. Give me all wins NOW. I'll take as many wins as we can get because a.) I don't care about the draft one iota. Whatever player we get, fine, I'll read the hype on him one day and hope to see him in the big leagues. In the meantime, give me wins now and give me free agents. The money the team spends? They should spend a TON considering what they are charging fans for food, drink and tickets and parking. I am much less front office friendly than most of you who trust our team to pick the right guy. There's always an excuse. Gee if the team on the field would have lost 2 more games we wouldn't have taken Rodon we'd have had Benetendi!!! Why didn't the team just lose 10 more that year?" Man I'm glad I'll never think that way. I want wins each night they take the field. Even this pathetic team. Give me a win tonight.

 

Look greg, we get it, you don't believe in the draft. You make zero points, you use the same tired examples. Just stop already

[greg775]

Look greg, we get it, you don't believe in the draft. You make zero points, you use the same tired examples. Just stop already

I'm sick of you telling me to stop already when I'M RESPONDING TO PEOPLE'S COMMENTS! Do you think I'm just bringing it up out of nowhere? How many times are people being told to shut up who are bringing up Benetendi EVERY DAY?? Just because my take is unpopular doesn't mean I can't defend myself. It's OK to bring up Benetendi every day but I can't bring up Trout and the Sox lousy front office? I guess I'll be banned soon.

 

My examples are "tired" and Benetendi example isn't??? People with the unpopular opinion are not encouraged to speak at all on here. Very very sad.

Edited June 7, 2017 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

I'm sick of you telling me to stop already when I'M RESPONDING TO PEOPLE'S COMMENTS! Do you think I'm just bringing it up out of nowhere? How many times are people being told to shut up who are bringing up Benetendi EVERY DAY?? Just because my take is unpopular doesn't mean I can't defend myself. It's OK to bring up Benetendi every day but I can't bring up Trout and the Sox lousy front office? I guess I'll be banned soon.

 

My examples are "tired" and Benetendi example isn't??? People with the unpopular opinion are not encouraged to speak at all on here. Very very sad.

 

No, you say the same bulls*** every time the draft is brought up. Don't make yourself a martyr, you aren't being banned.