2017-18 official NBA discussion thread

[Soxbadger]

I loved him in college but he wasn't good last year.

 

Yeah i dont remember why, but I really disliked him last year. I remember posting about the Bulls trading Butler and that if the T-Wolves took Dunn I did not want the 5th pick from them.

 

In retrospect it looks like that draft may just turn out to be really bad. lol

[Chisoxfn]

I would obviously do that deal if I'm Boston.

That seems like a fair deal for both sides.

[shipps]

Ian Begley‏

@IanBegley

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Sources: BOS offered NYK its No. 3 pick, a player & an additional lottery pick that they think they can acquire tonight in a trade for KP.

 

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Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 2m2 minutes ago

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Minnesota continues to show interest in landing Paul George or Jimmy Butler, league sources tell @TheVertical.

[Soxbadger]

Ian Begley‏

@IanBegley

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Sources: BOS offered NYK its No. 3 pick, a player & an additional lottery pick that they think they can acquire tonight in a trade for KP.

 

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Adrian Wojnarowski‏Verified account @WojVerticalNBA 2m2 minutes ago

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Minnesota continues to show interest in landing Paul George or Jimmy Butler, league sources tell @TheVertical.

 

Cant wait for Boston to completely screw this all up.

 

its like they forget that they got all of these picks by trading over the hill veterans.

[SCCWS]

Ian Begley‏

@IanBegley

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Sources: BOS offered NYK its No. 3 pick, a player & an additional lottery pick that they think they can acquire tonight in a trade for KP.

 

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So Boston seems to be offering the #3 tonight, a top 5 next year and Crowder. Knicks want Brown in addition who was #3 last year. I think 3 top 5 picks for him is too much so I think we see either Brown or next year's pick dropped and a 10-20 pick next year added.

Edited June 22, 2017 by SCCWS

[Soxbadger]

So Boston seems to be offering the #3 tonight, a top 5 next year and Crowder. Knicks want Brown in addition who was #3 last year. I think 3 top 5 picks for him is too much so I think we see either Brown or next year's pick dropped and a 10-20 pick next year added.

 

Thats not the offer.

 

The offer is #3 tonight, a lottery pick tonight (probably 10-15 range) and another player.

 

[shipps]

I feel like Boston is going to trade a player to the Bulls for their Draft pick tonight. Call me crazy.

 

I am not sure if thats even possible financially but its something that just hit me.

[Jenksismyhero]

Would anyone have interest in Aldridge? Dangle the 16 plus Mirotic? Sounds like that marriage is not going so well.

Edited June 22, 2017 by JenksIsMyHero

[Chisoxfn]

Cant wait for Boston to completely screw this all up.

 

its like they forget that they got all of these picks by trading over the hill veterans.

Jimmy Butler is an over the hill veteran? Have most posters looked back at the top 5 picks going back the last 10 years. If you exclude the #1 pick, you can count on 1 hand the number of players drafted who are at least as good, if not better then Butler. Even adding the #1 overall pick, that number doesn't increase much. In fact, it is eye opening how many top 5 picks end up being pretty garbage NBA players.

 

I think Boston is insane for not leveraging their picks to better their team now. Unless of course Ainge truly doesn't believe in his team...in which case he should be trading Isiah Thomas and stockpiling everything. Ainge has gotten too cute and if he sticks with the status quo, he'll have wasted a golden opportunity to give Cleveland a run for its money. Would they be the sure fire favorites, no, but they'd be right there to go to the championships if Cleveland faltered.

 

By the way, here is a summary of top 5 picks (from 2004 through 2013)...excluding the #1 overall pick. Someone else pulled this summary together on real GM (and I would argue there might be a few players he is being overly harsh on...as I'd say DMC is on par with Buckets), but I think it should be used cause it adds some reality to the mix. There are people in LA who are calling Ingram a bust (last year's #2 pick)...and obviously the Lakers shipped Russell (2 years ago #2 pick off) a couple days ago.

 

2004

Emeka Okafor

Ben Gordon

Shaun Livingston

Devin Harris

0

 

2005

Marvin Williams

Deron Williams

Chris Paul

Raymond Felton

1

 

2006

LaMarcus Aldridge

Adam Morrison

Tyrus Thomas

Shelden Williams

0.5

 

2007

Kevin Durant

Al Horford

Mike Conley

Jeff Green

1

 

2008

Micheal Beasley

OJ Mayo

Russell Westbrook

Kevin Love

1

 

2009

Hasheem Thabeet

James Harden

Tyreke Evans

Ricky Rubio

1

 

2010

Evan Turner

Derrick Favors

Wesley Johnson

DeMarcus Cousins

0.5

 

2011

Derrick Williams

Enes Kanter

Tristan Thompson

Jonas Valunciunas

(Butler drafted at #30)

0

 

2012

MKG

Bradley Beal

Dion Waiters

Thomas Robinson

0

 

2013

Victor Oladipo

Otto Porter

Cody Zeller

Alex Len

0

[Soxbadger]

Would anyone have interest in Aldridge? Dangle the 16 plus Mirotic? Sounds like that marriage is not going so well.

 

Does it come with a time machine?

 

Not getting into salaries, but 5 years ago this team would actually be interesting:

 

C- Lopez

PF- Aldridge

SF- Butler

SG- Wade

PG - Rondo

 

But I think that right now that roster is nothing more than middle of the road. The Bulls need to get a lot worse so that they can start getting top 5 picks.

[Chisoxfn]

Would anyone have interest in Aldridge? Dangle the 16 plus Mirotic? Sounds like that marriage is not going so well.

Certainly makes the Bulls better. Doesn't make them a championship team...but if you can land someone a year from now...that get you into top 3 seed range (again...not a championship team as written...unless you hit / get lucky a couple other spots).

[Soxbadger]

Jimmy Butler is an over the hill veteran? Have most posters looked back at the top 5 picks going back the last 10 years. If you exclude the #1 pick, you can count on 1 hand the number of players drafted who are at least as good, if not better then Butler. Even adding the #1 overall pick, that number doesn't increase much. In fact, it is eye opening how many top 5 picks end up being pretty garbage NBA players.

 

I think Boston is insane for not leveraging their picks to better their team now. Unless of course Ainge truly doesn't believe in his team...in which case he should be trading Isiah Thomas and stockpiling everything. Ainge has gotten too cute and if he sticks with the status quo, he'll have wasted a golden opportunity to give Cleveland a run for its money. Would they be the sure fire favorites, no, but they'd be right there to go to the championships if Cleveland faltered.

 

I meant Boston holding out on trading their picks to try and get Porzingis for the #3, a lottery pick in this years draft + a player. Instead of just offering #3 and a BKN pick and getting Porzingis for sure.

 

Over the hill veterans was a reference to how Celtics acquired BKN picks in the first place.

[Chisoxfn]

Does it come with a time machine?

 

Not getting into salaries, but 5 years ago this team would actually be interesting:

 

C- Lopez

PF- Aldridge

SF- Butler

SG- Wade

PG - Rondo

 

But I think that right now that roster is nothing more than middle of the road. The Bulls need to get a lot worse so that they can start getting top 5 picks.

See the edited post I made (above yours) which shows a history of top 5 picks (excluding #1 overall picks...so picks 2-5). The list is pretty damn depressing. This view that being awful for long is some great path to success is a bit delusional (not saying you have that view). Some could say the same thing about my view....I guess the difference is...I don't think that the only way to build a contender is via tanking.

 

In fact, I can't really think of an example who has proven tanking works. Maybe Sixers will eventually pull it off. Warriors didn't tank to get where they did...they struck gold in a series of drafts though (and than on top of that had Durant land in their lap). That said, neither Curry / Klay were top 5 picks and Draymond wasn't even a 1st rounder.

[Chisoxfn]

See the edited post I made (above yours) which shows a history of top 5 picks (excluding #1 overall picks...so picks 2-5). The list is pretty damn depressing. This view that being awful for long is some great path to success is a bit delusional (not saying you have that view). Some could say the same thing about my view....I guess the difference is...I don't think that the only way to build a contender is via tanking.

 

In fact, I can't really think of an example who has proven tanking works. Maybe Sixers will eventually pull it off. Warriors didn't tank to get where they did...they struck gold in a series of drafts though (and than on top of that had Durant land in their lap). That said, neither Curry / Klay were top 5 picks and Draymond wasn't even a 1st rounder.

The above is also why I can not fathom what Boston is doing. I can from the perspetive that I see value in them "accumulating" picks...but I don't get their process of leveraging the value of their picks (given where they stand). I do think Thibs understands the value of veterans helping move things forward (we all knew it from his time with the Bulls where he consistenty referenced history and the fact that rookies players rarely play key roles on championship teams) and if there was a team who was going to come in hard (who has feasible assets), it would be Minnesota, with a player like Wiggins, whose floor is damn high and then you have the potential upside of other players (and if they bust...you haven't set yourself back years...which is the risk if you just trade for a #3 overall pick).

 

I guess I'll leave it with this...if Bulls trade Butler...I think it is to Minny built around Wiggins, the #7 pick, and either future picks (or Dunn). If Butler goes to Boston...it is because Minny upped the offer and Boston got serious about danlging future picks to go with the #3 pick (and even then, if I were the Bulls, I would be a fan of then flipping #3 with Sac for #5 and #8), unless their grading on Jackson was that much higher.

[Jenksismyhero]

See the edited post I made (above yours) which shows a history of top 5 picks (excluding #1 overall picks...so picks 2-5). The list is pretty damn depressing. This view that being awful for long is some great path to success is a bit delusional (not saying you have that view). Some could say the same thing about my view....I guess the difference is...I don't think that the only way to build a contender is via tanking.

 

In fact, I can't really think of an example who has proven tanking works. Maybe Sixers will eventually pull it off. Warriors didn't tank to get where they did...they struck gold in a series of drafts though (and than on top of that had Durant land in their lap). That said, neither Curry / Klay were top 5 picks and Draymond wasn't even a 1st rounder.

 

That list is a great reason why I've been against trading Butler for picks. You have a proven top 12 player in the league in his prime. He's done nothing but improve EVERY year he's been in the league. In an era when you need 3 of those guys to win a championship, why on earth give up 1??

 

That list is also why i'm against one of those draft wheel systems (where every team is just slotted into a draft position for the next 30 years, regardless of how they do in any given season). Look how much luck it takes to draft hall of fame players. You have to be picking high in that particular draft AND you have to make the right pick. That would be awful waiting the 5-6 years to get in that top 5 and then you end up with a really bad draft class to choose from.

[Chisoxfn]

It's too bad Lavine tore his ACL, cause I believe in his upside and could see him eventually being the best player on Minny (but a lot of risk with that prediction).

[Jordan4life_2007]

See the edited post I made (above yours) which shows a history of top 5 picks (excluding #1 overall picks...so picks 2-5). The list is pretty damn depressing. This view that being awful for long is some great path to success is a bit delusional (not saying you have that view). Some could say the same thing about my view....I guess the difference is...I don't think that the only way to build a contender is via tanking.

 

In fact, I can't really think of an example who has proven tanking works. Maybe Sixers will eventually pull it off. Warriors didn't tank to get where they did...they struck gold in a series of drafts though (and than on top of that had Durant land in their lap). That said, neither Curry / Klay were top 5 picks and Draymond wasn't even a 1st rounder.

 

They weren't outright tanking. But the Sonics/Thunder were pretty damn awful the years that led to them drafting Durant/Westbrook/Harden.

[Bananarchy]

They weren't outright tanking. But the Sonics/Thunder were pretty damn awful the years that led to them drafting Durant/Westbrook/Harden.

The Cavs won 17 games in 2002-2003. That's textbook tank. They were rewarded with the second greatest player in NBA history.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Sox-35th

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Cavs won 17 games in 2002-2003. That's textbook tank. They were rewarded with the second greatest player in NBA history.

 

And the Spurs in '97. Being really, really bad is sometimes the best way to get really, really good.

[Soxbadger]

That list is a great reason why I've been against trading Butler for picks. You have a proven top 12 player in the league in his prime. He's done nothing but improve EVERY year he's been in the league. In an era when you need 3 of those guys to win a championship, why on earth give up 1??

 

That list is also why i'm against one of those draft wheel systems (where every team is just slotted into a draft position for the next 30 years, regardless of how they do in any given season). Look how much luck it takes to draft hall of fame players. You have to be picking high in that particular draft AND you have to make the right pick. That would be awful waiting the 5-6 years to get in that top 5 and then you end up with a really bad draft class to choose from.

 

Normally I would agree, but Durant going to the Warriors really changed things. I dont like the Warriors and Im the last person who wants to write this, but right now their team is built in a way that it is hard for me to imagine the Bulls being able to compete with. Now Durant could get injured, etc, but at this time its just hard to see a way that the Bulls can beat the Warriors, especially when the warriors will bring in vet guys every year to patch holes.

 

I wish this wasnt the case, but I do not really see how the Bulls can get 2 superstars to go with Butler.

 

That being said, I am also not willing to give Butler away for free which is why it has to be something like Wiggins + 7 or #3+ BKN. Otherwise you might as well keep Butler and hope you can land a FA or get lucky in the draft and some other things go your way.

 

Chisox,

 

The Boston thing is what Ive been saying for the last few days. They are acting like these top picks are definite superstars, when the reality is that they are more likely to bust than be Butler/Porzingis. Which is why I cant believe that Boston wont just do what it takes to get Porzingis or Butler.

 

Every time I look at the roster I feel like they are closer to a team that loses in the first round than a team that wins a Championship.

[Chisoxfn]

The insider over at Real GM (who from past history seems to have very very legitimate sources) is indicating Bulls are interested in Fox (not a shocker) and they are still having conversations with Minny regarding Butler. His view is no deal would happen until we legitimately saw Fox there @ 7 (and just cause Fox is there at 7...it doesn't mean a deal happens...just means the Bulls might be more okay with potential deal). Supposedly Bulls front office is crazy about Fox (of course a year ago it was supposedly crazy over Dunn).

[Chisoxfn]

Normally I would agree, but Durant going to the Warriors really changed things. I dont like the Warriors and Im the last person who wants to write this, but right now their team is built in a way that it is hard for me to imagine the Bulls being able to compete with. Now Durant could get injured, etc, but at this time its just hard to see a way that the Bulls can beat the Warriors, especially when the warriors will bring in vet guys every year to patch holes.

 

I wish this wasnt the case, but I do not really see how the Bulls can get 2 superstars to go with Butler.

 

That being said, I am also not willing to give Butler away for free which is why it has to be something like Wiggins + 7 or #3+ BKN. Otherwise you might as well keep Butler and hope you can land a FA or get lucky in the draft and some other things go your way.

 

Chisox,

 

The Boston thing is what Ive been saying for the last few days. They are acting like these top picks are definite superstars, when the reality is that they are more likely to bust than be Butler/Porzingis. Which is why I cant believe that Boston wont just do what it takes to get Porzingis or Butler.

 

Every time I look at the roster I feel like they are closer to a team that loses in the first round than a team that wins a Championship.

On both parts, I agree whole-heartedly.

[Chisoxfn]

What do people think about Butler & 16 for Wiggins, Lavine, and #7? Or Butler for Wiggins & 7 on its own (is that enough)?

[Soxbadger]

The insider over at Real GM (who from past history seems to have very very legitimate sources) is indicating Bulls are interested in Fox (not a shocker) and they are still having conversations with Minny regarding Butler. His view is no deal would happen until we legitimately saw Fox there @ 7 (and just cause Fox is there at 7...it doesn't mean a deal happens...just means the Bulls might be more okay with potential deal). Supposedly Bulls front office is crazy about Fox (of course a year ago it was supposedly crazy over Dunn).

 

Unfortunately I dont think Fox is there at 7. I think Fox goes 4/5. And I personally think people may look back at this draft and wonder how Fox fell.

 

Its unfortunate that there is no way that the Sun/Bulls match at all. Because I think 4 is the pick you need to get Fox.

[shipps]

What do people think about Butler & 16 for Wiggins, Lavine, and #7? Or Butler for Wiggins & 7 on its own (is that enough)?

 

Hmmmm I would do it either way. Whether you include Lavine or not but definitely yes if Lavine is included. Wiggins gets you younger and will give you pretty much the same offensive production as Jimmy minus the defense and you get your guy Fox at 7.

 

This team needs to rebuild. Its going to be a roll of the dice no matter which way you look at it. Majority of NBA teams arent as dumb as Brooklyn to give organization crippling returns on trades.